Cloud of Witnesses Radio
Audio drama retellings of the stories of the Christian Saints, Panel Discussions, Cast Commentary, Reaction Videos, Screwtape Returns, and more!
Cloud of Witnesses Radio
Christian Authority: Orthodox vs Protestant | Witness Weekly | WW003
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
The Authority Crisis Inside Christianity: If the Bible Is the Answer... Who Interprets It?
Who decides?
“Jesus is Lord + baptized in the Spirit = you’re set.” Sounds simple… but who gets to define those words? We dig into authority, sola scriptura, and why interpretation without a Church fractures faith. Listen and tell us: who’s your authority?
Authority shapes everything, from how we read the Bible to how we treat the people sitting next to us in church. We start with a blunt comment that tries to shrink Christianity into a simple checklist and then ask the question most people skip: by what authority can anyone define the faith that way, and who gets to decide what those words mean?
• Mount Sinai and St. Catherine’s Monastery land dispute and why it matters to Christians
• SSPX excommunication story and what it reveals about papal authority
• Parish Life Conference takeaways and how shared worship strengthens unity
• Responding to a comment that reduces salvation to a simple formula
• Sola scriptura in practice and how interpretation often becomes self-authority
• What “baptized in the Holy Spirit” means across denominations and why definitions diverge
• Why the New Testament calls for lived obedience, not just verbal profession
• Protestants bringing Protestant assumptions into Orthodoxy and why we must leave them at the door
• Orthodoxy as lived faith versus Christianity as an academic subject
• Book of the week: A Tale Of Two Cities and how cruel authority breeds violence
• Authority as service, responsibility, and burden rather than privilege
• The cloud of witnesses, inherited wisdom, and the problem of American individualism
• Listener stories from Hebrew Roots, synagogue searching, tongues, and finding rooted worship
From there we get practical about the authority problem inside modern Christianity. If “the Bible alone” is the final authority, who is the final interpreter? We talk about how sola scriptura often slides into self-authority, why Protestantism can’t easily speak with one voice about baptism, salvation, or essentials, and how rhetoric can masquerade as certainty. Against that backdrop, we explain the Eastern Orthodox view of authority as inherited life: Scripture read in the Church, sacred tradition, the teaching of the apostles and fathers, the ecumenical councils, and the sacramental reality that trains us to forgive, repent, pray, and endure.
Authority isn’t privilege, it’s burden. From Mount Sinai’s ancient monastery to Dickens’ A Tale Of Two Cities, we trace what happens when leaders serve vs dominate.
We also zoom out to real examples. We cover updates on St. Catherine’s Monastery at Mount Sinai and why protecting ancient Christian institutions matters. We touch on Roman Catholic controversy around the SSPX as another case study in competing claims of authority. Then we bring it home with a powerful reflection on A Tale Of Two Cities, where cruel authority produces violence, while true authority looks like sacrifice, service, and responsibility. Along the way, listener comments add hope-filled stories of people moving from Hebrew Roots and Pentecostal backgrounds toward Orthodoxy because they’re hungry for historical rootedness and worship that feels alive.
What if “tradition” isn’t worshiping ashes, but preserving fire? We talk Orthodox authority, humility, the cloud of witnesses, and why individualism isolates believers from 2,000 years of wisdom.
If this conversation helped you rethink authority, share it with a friend who’s asking similar questions, subscribe for more, and leave a review so more people can find the show.
Questions about Orthodoxy? Please check out our friends at Ghost of Byzantium Discord server: https://discord.gg/JDJDQw6tdh
Please prayerfully consider supporting Cloud of Witnesses: https://www.patreon.com/c/CloudofWitnesses
Find Cloud of Witnesses on Instagram, X.com, Facebook, and TikTok.
Please leave a comment with your thoughts!
When Leadership Shapes Church Culture
SPEAKER_03You see how their attitude reflects who their leader is, and that's in their arrogance about what they believe is the correct interpretation of scripture, um, the way that they deal with other people within the church, the way that they deal with other people leaving the church or separations within divisions, and that's ultimately what you see is the fruit of innovating church division.
SPEAKER_02As you know about the SXPX. You know, there's been a little bit of a controversy there because they've been excommunicated for a second time.
SPEAKER_04How diabolical, right? How sinister um is the devil and and his demons today? Because you think about it, it makes perfect sense if that's the right way to pray.
SPEAKER_06That's a part of the life of being a Christian, is that orthodoxy is lived, whereas many of these Protestants Christianity becomes like a subject to be studied. They they go through the scriptures very analytically, very systematically. That to me kills and guts any kind of life that is in Christianity, whereas orthodoxy, it's there's so much more of an emphasis on living it out.
SPEAKER_04Amen.
Welcome And The Theme Of Authority
SPEAKER_04Hi, welcome to Cloud of Witnesses. Jeremy Jeremiah here. We've got Witness Weekly. We've got a full house as usual. Holding down the four back there, we got Mario St. Andrew, James St. Simon, as well as Michael joining us. Guys, we've got a great episode today. The theme of tonight is authority. Who says, why do we trust that authority, etc.? Mario, hit us with the news.
Mount Sinai Monastery Land Dispute
SPEAKER_02All right, so we're gonna be going to Egypt. Um, I don't know if you guys know St. Catherine's Monastery in Mount Sinai. Yeah, in Egypt. It's amazing. Yes. And so they've had, I don't know if you remember last year, there was some contingency between the Greek archdiocese and uh the Egyptian parliament and their government that they have. They were trying to seize the land, saying that it is Egyptian land. Um, and so there's been a lot of tension between the Orthodox Christians that are there. And so there's been this big debate on whose land is it. And so they've kind of come into this conclusion that it is Egypt's land, but it's a national monument that the monks can live in. Right. And so that's kind of where they're going. But their thing is that the land around the monastery is gardens, right? That the monks use to garden, right? And that's where they get their food and everything like that. Right. And so they might not be able to keep that land. And so what are these monks going to do to eat? Wow. You know? And so that's it's an update that's happening.
SPEAKER_04Well, you know, Mario, that has been an ongoing controversy, right? It's it's kind of amazing that to this day that they are still there.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Very famously, you guys maybe have heard this. At that monastery, they have, and they've got it even framed, there is a signed document by Muhammad himself. And literally his Muhammad's handprint is on it. And on this hand, on this document, Muhammad basically says, and by the way, I'm talking about Muhammad of Islam, um, he says that this land, this monastery is given to the um Christians there, and that they will protect them. So I find it interesting that in today's modern secular government, they're maybe not even following that decree anymore. Sad. It's very sad.
SPEAKER_03I'm glad you clarified which Muhammad it was, because I was thinking it was Muhammad Ali.
SPEAKER_04If only, if only, because then nobody would mess with it. Exactly. Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_02Um, yeah, so that that's just an update on that. That's actually the first Instagram and YouTube video that I did was actually on St. Catherine's Monastery. So I've been keeping close watch on that.
SPEAKER_04Please do. Keep us updated on that, Mario, because that's an important story. Um people, I think it's easy to underestimate the importance of an institution like that monastery. Literally has been there, I want to say for something like for 1700 years, 1800 years.
SPEAKER_02Well, that's where they believe that the burning bush was, right? On Mount. Yeah, literally, out of the Old Testament. Yeah, so it's it's it's very important to us
Vatican Conflict And Papal Authority
SPEAKER_02Christians. Um, so the next story we're gonna go to the Vatican, right? I don't know if you guys know about the SXPX. You know, there's been a little bit of a controversy there because they've been excommunicated for a second time. The first time happening in 1988 by Pope John II, and this time by Pope Leo. Um so basically they consecrated two bishops without the Pope's approval because the Pope has to approve every bishop. And so they've been excommunicated. And actually the SX, um, excuse me, the SSPX actually rejected the excommunication. Wow. Basically saying that it was faulty and it's un basically unfair.
SPEAKER_04So by fiat, then they are in essence denying the authority of the Pope.
SPEAKER_02Exactly.
SPEAKER_04Wow. I mean, look, I pray for our Roman Catholic brothers and sisters. It's I'll just be honest, it's a mess what's going on over there. Um I can offer is hey, your Eastern brothers are here with open arms.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, totally.
Parish Life Conference And Unity
SPEAKER_02Um, and for the last story, we just had our annual Parish Life conference here actually in sunny San Diego. I believe it was the second most clergy, Antiochian clergy at one event ever. Wow. Yeah, it was amazing. Our Bishop Anthony was there. Um, what did you guys think? I'm just gonna end up with you guys. Not all of you were there. But Mike, what did you think about it?
SPEAKER_06Well, I wasn't able to make it to any of the workshops or anything, but I was able to make it to the Divine Liturgy, which was the first hierarchical divine liturgy I'd been to. Which was cool. It was awesome. It was beautiful. It was great to be there with my family and my son there with Bishop Bishop Anthony and also just being around parishioners from other Antiochian churches in the area, yeah. St. George's, and and it was really cool just getting to interact with other Orthodox Christians that we wouldn't normally meet or see on a normal Sunday.
SPEAKER_04Totally. I've been to other PLCs, Mario. Um I I want to say quickly to kind of um jump off that what you said, Michael, it is a beautiful opportunity because I think it's the entire West Coast, right? So you're getting parishes from all over the West who are all coming together, who normally, right, we wouldn't really necessarily see them very often. So I think it's a great thing that we do, it's a great event. Um the choirs are huge that and and they sing hymns in different styles, right, to kind of fit in with all these other parishes. It's a very cool thing. And I think it's that kind of communication that hopefully will lead to continued unity in the church. Um, because we realize, right, even when there's these slight variations in local, local practice, we're all practicing the same faith. We're now moving now to the discussion of the week.
A Comment That Reduces Christianity
SPEAKER_04As I mentioned, the theme um is authority. And I wanted to kind of start us off with um a comment that we received. Um, this was Sylvester KMN. Um, and his comment goes like this He says, Eastern Orthodoxy, question, question, question mark. What is that? He says, Is Jesus Christ your Lord and Savior? And have you been baptized in the Holy Spirit? Then you have everything you need to make it to heaven. If you get into religion and idolatry, then you are committing spiritual suicide. Keep your faith simple, but don't add anything more. And I just think it's an interesting comment, who's obviously someone who's probably doesn't know a lot about orthodoxy or maybe has heard something about things that are leading him to have certain conclusions about orthodoxy. But you want to ask the question on whose authority, right? He says, Is Jesus Christ your Lord and Savior? I think we would all say absolutely as Orthodox Christians, yes, 100%, thanks be to God. And have we been baptized in the Holy Spirit? I think as Orthodox Christians, we would say yes, thanks be to God, right? It's a major part of what we do. And he says, then you have everything you need to make it to heaven. And so what I wanted to talk with you guys about is by what authority is Sylvester speaking? What where is he getting this statement, which sounds to me almost like a creed, right? If you have Jesus as your Lord and Savior and you're baptized with the Holy Spirit, you get to make it into heaven. Is this what Christianity is? Do we do we simply say, okay, well, Sylvester said this, therefore it's true? How do we approach this as Orthodox Christians?
SPEAKER_06One of the interesting things about that Protestant perspective that you hear a lot of just it it just waters it down, it boils it down to the like the lowest common denominator version of Christianity, which is interesting because they put such an emphasis on sola scriptura, they put such an emphasis on the Bible, which obviously we do as well. Um, but from their perspective, they would say that they rank the Bible higher than we do, which I don't think is accurate, but that's their perspective on it. But the Bible's a big book, and to just whittle it down to one or two sentences of saying this is all you need, it's I don't know how you necessarily make that a mesh with solar scripture. You know, you're you're shaving off a whole lot of the scriptures to just boil it down to one or two sentences.
SPEAKER_04That's a great point, Mike.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I forgot that my New Testament ended on you have to believe in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and be baptized in the Holy Spirit, period, end of New Testament. Right. If that were the case, what would be the necessity for all of the epistles and you know, the apocalypse of Saint John? Like it it doesn't make sense. Uh and you know, that is the message that people hear, right? All you have to do is this, and that's it. End of story. As if that's all that there is to being a Christian, right? I think they forget the whole purpose of well, first I would have to say, what does it mean to be baptized in the Holy Spirit, right? What do they mean by that? Because I've been a part of different churches who would answer that question very differently. One church would say, Well, when you're baptized in water, you're baptized in the Holy Spirit, depending on whose name you were baptized in. Right. There's the Jesus only people, there's the Trinitarian people, and then others who are like, Well, it doesn't matter if you were baptized in water, as long as you're baptized in the Holy Spirit. And they're like, What is that? Well, we just pray over you, and then you're baptized in the Holy Spirit.
SPEAKER_04And you might speak in tongues to prove it. Yes.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, right, right. And so it's like, well, what does that mean according to which you know creed or denomination is that the case? And then is Jesus your Lord and Savior? You would have to point them to that scripture where the people said to Jesus, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name, cast out demons in your name, done many wonders in your name. And Jesus says, Depart from me, you lovers of iniquity, I never knew you. So yeah, you can be, you can claim and profess Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. You can think you are baptized in the Holy Spirit. But if you love iniquity, you'll be rejected. You know, you have to, there's more to it than just that. And when people, you know, whittle Christian down, Christianity down to, did you make that profession of faith? Did you raise your hand and say the prayer? Then that's it. I think that's a a great deception.
SPEAKER_04Amen. James, Mike, Mario. What authority do you think he thinks his authority is? What do you think he thinks his authority is? If you just had to guess.
SPEAKER_06He would say the Bible is the only infallible authority.
SPEAKER_04Right, I agree. He's gonna probably say his his authority is the Bible. Right, I would think. What do you say, Nelga James? What do you think his authority actually is?
SPEAKER_03Himself.
SPEAKER_04Why do you say that?
SPEAKER_03Well, like I said, you know, he's picking a select few scriptures, interpreting them him however he deems appropriate, and he's saying that's all. He's not pointing us to any creed, he's not pointing us to any authority, he's speaking authoritatively himself over this judge, jury, executioner, over, said, and done, signed, sealed, delivered, that's it, right? Um, and he he seems very confident.
SPEAKER_04Very confident.
SPEAKER_03That's all that there is to it. But, you know, I would say the rest of the New Testament begs to differ.
SPEAKER_04And interestingly, and Mike, I think you were pointing at this as well, is other Christian denominations, other Protestant denominations, would have issue with what Sylvester says here.
Protestant Authority And Baptist Claims
SPEAKER_04With that in mind, gentlemen, uh don your headphones.
SPEAKER_01It would be best if prospects did not convert these orthodoxy. I say that because I believe prospects. But also, if you're going to do this, you're going to do the thing I think you shouldn't do, you should at least know what tradition you're rejecting. What happens almost invariably. The two out of a thousand over 16 years is not exactly a crisis. And yes, in both cases, these were guys who probably could not articulate exactly what Protestantism believes. They had a reddit level understanding, and so they need to go elsewhere.
SPEAKER_00They're rejecting a straw man. So situational, so theological to not theological. But even the theology that they aren't moving into, they're bringing their Protestant understanding of grace and salvation, you know, due to first. There's a life that comes in the preaching of the gospel. For the East Orthodox Church, there's not life in that gospel that's being preached because it's more what you need to do, the veneration of the saints, and all of those other works that are taking place there. And so it seems that they're bringing many of those things with them. So even those who might be born again who would then move there, they're bringing that Protestant theology with them instead of finding it in the it would be best. Okay, thank you for pointing that.
SPEAKER_04What I would like want to draw to your attention, uh, gentlemen, is these guys, um, just for your information, they're are Baptists. Okay, so they're all Baptists, they're actually Baptist professors and and pastors.
SPEAKER_03I could have told you that.
SPEAKER_04Now, they speak of that some people are coming to Orthodoxy, and as they put it, they bring their Protestantism with them, right? They bring their Protestant doctrine with them. Well, our topic is authority. I I want to ask the question: what Protestantism, what authority? These are Baptists. Lutherans would feel very differently, Methodists are going to feel very differently, Anglicans will feel very differently, non-denominationals will feel very differently, on and on and on. What by what authority are they approaching this as Baptists? Why do they as Baptists get to say this is our Protestant doctrine? What are your thoughts on that?
SPEAKER_03Well, I would say depending on what type of Baptist they are, um, because when I was a Reformed Baptist, I adhered to the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith, right? So if it was in the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith, I believed it. And in that case, my authority was the 70 odd pastors and theologians who were part of the committee that signed off on the Baptist Confession of Faith. However, there are so many different types of Baptists nowadays that you would have to find out which, you know, which group they they're a part of. And even they would say, but they're not the final authority, yet that's the theology that they adhere to. I found it very interesting when they said that, you know, they can't uh articulate what Protestant theology is. And I'm like, no one really can't say that.
SPEAKER_04Right, that's exactly, and that's kind of what I'm getting at is someone who would explain their theology, okay, are they in line with the 1689 London Baptist Confession or not? And if they're not, does that mean they're not Protestant? Of course not. They're still Protestants, they're just not saved. They're not saved, right? Then we question, do they even have the real gospel? But I think that's an excellent point because to me, they speak again with such authority, kind of like the comment from Sylvester, that they speak with I love, I liked how you put that, right? They're very authoritative with how they speak. Um, but it doesn't sound like what they're saying has any authority.
SPEAKER_03The rhetoric is, again, the probably the most effective thing in what they're saying. Yeah. The two out of 1,001 years that convert, we know those numbers are are totally false because we're talking about by the millions people are are converting. I can tell you more than two in in a thousand have just by the number of catechumen we've had in the last you know few years that I've been Orthodox. And I hear the numbers from St. Andrews, I know the numbers in St. Catherine, I was just there across the country. You can't even keep up with how how fast it's growing. Um one thing that he said that they did say that is true, and it's more of a problem than it is whatever way that they were uh trying to spin it, was that people do bring their Protestantism into the Orthodox Church, but that is the problem. And uh something that Father Nathan told me that they that the theologian at the seminary that he was studying at told him was leave your Protestantism at the door. Because Eastern Orthodoxy is nothing like Protestant theology at all. And it's kind of like what Mike was saying, it's a very stripped down lowest common denominator. Um, you know, that's that's what they have in common with one another. True. What Protestants have in common with one another is it how stripped down their theology is so that they can at least have on what they call non-essential or on essentials, they feel like they have common ground. But on the non-essentials, it's you know, fair game.
SPEAKER_06Right. You're then back into the same issue though, of the authority of what's essential and what's not essential and who gets to decide. Right. But I think your point about this mostly being rhetoric is very true because they do lack any kind of authoritative position to say these things from. So in many cases, they do kind of rely on rhetoric to be persuasive.
Lived Orthodoxy Versus Classroom Faith
SPEAKER_06And one of the things he said that I found surprising, having converted from being a Protestant to Orthodoxy, is how he said there's there's no life in the Orthodox Church versus being a Protestant. And for me, that was one of the I saw it completely the opposite way, which was a huge draw to orthodoxy for me. And he even pointed to like venerating icons and saints and things like that. That's a part of the life of being a Christian, is that orthodoxy is lived, whereas many of these Protestants Christianity becomes like a subject to be studied. They they go through the scriptures very analytically, very systematically. That to me kills and guts any kind of life that is in Christianity, whereas Orthodoxy, it's there's so much more of an emphasis on living it out.
SPEAKER_04Amen. Amen. I came from a Presbyterian uh church before coming to Orthodoxy, and it was a common, you guys probably have heard this before, because we were, you know, reformed Calvinists, we were often chided as the frozen chosen. You ever heard that before? Because these churches were so lifeless, they were so sterile and dry, and it was all about I loved how you put that, Mike. It's like it's it almost becomes this intellectual ascent, right? Like a college classroom. And I think the frozen chosen, you would never hear that to describe holy orthodoxy.
SPEAKER_06Um which is incredible because we do keep things very much the same over very long periods of time. But that's I think there's a quote. Um, I might be misquoting this, but it says something to the effect of tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. And so the criticism is that we that's great, keep things the same, and so that we must it must be kind of a lifeless going through the motions kind of a thing, but it it couldn't be more opposite.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, one of the big differences in what they say and the reality of the Christian faith is that they attribute so much to the preaching and the hearing of the gospel. Yes, but they neglect the living of the gospel, which is the most important part. Jesus' teachings were not in trying to convert people by convincing them through rhetoric or uh convincing argument. He gave them the message, he offered. Healing and forgiveness of sins. But his teachings were if you do not forgive your brother, then you will not be forgiven. Right. And action. And that Sylvester um you know, brother who sent that email uh or that comment, what he's lacking is that Jesus says, yeah, believe in him as Lord and Savior. Yeah, be baptized in the Holy Spirit. Right. But you also have to forgive.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_03Right. You also have to knock and ask without ceasing more of the Holy Spirit. You also have to carry your cross daily.
SPEAKER_04So take care of the widows and the orphans, feed the hungry.
SPEAKER_03And all, yeah, whatever you do to the least of these, you've done unto me. Whatever you have not done unto the least of these, you have not done unto me, right? So also enduring until the end, right? Only those who endure until the end will be saved. So there are so many things that are still required of you because our faith needs to be living and active and evident. Otherwise, it's just talk. And uh, there's this great quote at the beginning of a DC talk song uh that it's the greatest single cause of atheism today in the world is Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips but deny him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable. And that always sticks with me because that's true. The secularization of Christianity is in that message. All you have to do is believe and profess, and you're saved, brother. Doesn't matter how you live your life, but that's contrary to what Jesus says. You need to become like him, perfect, as your heavenly father is perfect. And how do you share in that part the perfection? It's in communion and becoming one with his perfection through holy communion, through the sacraments. I mean, even like you mentioned, the icons are part of the life-giving grace and energies of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
SPEAKER_04Amen. I'm going to say it, you guys. This is the first time and maybe not the last time DC talk has been quoted on Cloud of Witnesses.
SPEAKER_03With me here definitely.
SPEAKER_04I love it. Um Protestants take doctrine so seriously, right? They they're they take pride in their, they've got correct doctrine, is what they want to say. And yet, the irony of this, what I'm hearing from you, Mike and James, the problem is bad doctrine. Why? Because all those things that you guys just described, that is the life of the church, they called it works. Right. They've misdefined the life of the church as works because of a bad soteriology. So, yes, doctrine does matter. It especially matters when you're on the wrong side of it. So, Lord of mercy. Um, really appreciate your insight
A Tale Of Two Cities On Power
SPEAKER_04on that. We're moving next to James St. Simon with the book of the week.
SPEAKER_03Yes, thank you guys. The book of the week for this week with the theme of authority is The Tale of Two Cities by Charles Dickens. And there's a rule in literature called the rule of three. You can't really form an opinion on a writer until you've read three of their books. For me, this was the third Charles Dickens books, Charles Dickens book I had read. I had read A Christmas Carol, Great Expectations, and I was going to read A Tale of Two Cities. And when I first started reading it, I was about halfway done, and I had almost decided to stop reading it because it was not like a Christmas carol or great expectations at all. I was expecting the eccentric characters, I was expecting, you know, um, just that wit that he has. And it wasn't that at all. I was a bit confused and very disappointed at first because that's what I was expecting. But the more I read, I realized this story is not really about the characters, the people in this story. It really is a tale of two cities. And when that hit me, the characters are the cities, right? The soul of the city, how that community is changed by the authority that's in place. It suddenly changed for me the perspective of this story and how I felt about this story. So then I read the second half, and then it became one of my favorite books because it's deeply and profoundly theological. And one of the big things about it is how cruel authority brings forth violence and bloodshed and revolt. My kids always tell me this you are what you behold, right? It's a very philosophical phrase.
SPEAKER_02Your kids tell you that?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, my kids tell me that. But it comes from a video game that they play. But and it's all about that. Whatever you show these characters, they begin to um they begin to uh uh manifest, emulate. That's that's powerful. So if you show them violence, they become violent. And before you know it, they all start to destroy each other. And you see this with San Antoine, the city. They're mistreated by the authority, by the government. We know the whole story with Marie Antoinette and and how that led to the French Revolution, because while they were uh dazzling themselves in jewels and and um you know desserts and all lavishing themselves with with all kinds of luxuries at the expense of the people, the people revolted in violence, right? They, you know, took off her head. And um you see that happen to these people, people who were decent at first, but because of the indecency and the injustice that they were treated with, they respond with that same manner of aggression. There was a very interesting TED talk that I heard about a nut who's dancing on a hillside, and all of these people who are having a picnic on a hillside watch, they're watching this guy for a couple minutes just make a fool of himself dancing on this hill. And it isn't until one other person joins the nut in his dance that when it took them about a few minutes of just watching to finally participate, once a second person joined, it was no longer one lone nut. It was now a movement. And then before you know it, it's like seconds before the whole hillside is now dancing, right? And what this speaker takes away from this is the leader is not always the first nut to do something different. The leader is usually the first to follow. And that's something on this message of authority that's very important in connection to the church and in connection to this story. There was one person who was a bit of an outsider, and he's connected to this romance and and all of that, who had a different authority than the king and queen of France, than the people of San Antoine. He had an authority that led him to lay his own life down so that others could live. And he wasn't the first to create this innovation. He followed the example of the first, you know, the first example, the first one to break the norm and to lay his life down for others so that they may live. And he followed that so that somebody could escape death and live and enjoy his life. And we see that sacrifice at the heart of this story. And of course, that makes us think of our Lord and Savior. But more than that, we think about how we as Christians we get to benefit from the first to follow, right? Christ was the first to go into martyrdom and produce life, but the first ones to follow him followed him into martyrdom. And we follow them, the apostles, the church fathers, who followed Christ into martyrdom so that we can follow the church can follow Christ into life. Right. And that is our authority. Our authority is that, and when we want to follow Christ, what we follow really are the examples of those who followed him before us. Because we want to capture what they lived in their martyrdom, right? And how that built the church that should have died with them, because he only had 12 followers and you know, so many other people. But even though they laid down their life 300 years, oh no, 200 years later, Christianity becomes the official religion of the Roman Empire, right? So with us, we're not, we shouldn't follow people who are trying to innovate, who are trying to create something new. Those are the nuts, right? Those are the people dancing on the hillside, right? We want to follow the people who were the first followers, and that's why it's so important to follow the church fathers, to follow the teaching of the apostles. They're preserving not the ashes, but the fire that was that came down from heaven in on Pentecost, the fire of the Holy Spirit that Jesus promised. That if you live as they live, laying your life down as a sacrifice, then others will live because that's the greatest love that Jesus talks about. And you may not think that that's what you'll get out of this story, but that's what I got. And I think that is really what's at the heart of this. And people get that most when their mind is on Christ, the first to lay his life down. And then you see that that's the pattern of the church, and that's why we're here. So why wouldn't we venerate them? Why wouldn't we recognize them and celebrate them? So if you haven't already, pick up a copy of A Tale of Two Cities by Charles Dickens. It's the best of times, the worst of times, but one of the best books that you'll ever read.
SPEAKER_04Amen.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, that's really good. And it makes me think about when you're talking about Christ going into martyrdom and the disciples following him there. I think a misconception of authority, especially today, is it's associated with privilege. People who are in positions of authority, it's perceived, and sometimes it is the case, that it's it's just it goes along with having privileges. But real authority, being in charge, means that you are charged with taking care of other people, right? Um, with the people who are under your charge. So true authority is not as much about privilege as it is about burden and responsibility and service to the people who are under your charge. Um, which I think, you know, we have many, many examples, like you mentioned, of the early church fathers and the disciples themselves who who understood that um perspective on on authority.
SPEAKER_04That's that's beautiful, Mike. Um I love that, James. Um, I think that you know, when I recall reading A Tale of Two Cities, that first and famous opening line, you know, is the best of times, it was the worst of times, really encapsulates the whole story, right? Because you had this, they there there was an affluence there, right? There was a opulence, really, it was a beauty there. Art flourished during those times, etc., to give one example. And yet it was the worst of times, right? Death and poverty. And one thing that struck me is the idea of the guillotine, right? Which is obviously is a major hallmark of this novel. And it it makes me think about what happens when you remove Christ, when you remove the first followers, right? When you remove that um example from your life, it ends in death, right? It ends in people to establish their authority, to maintain their authority, the guillotine, right? The taking of human life. Um and you see how vacuous that becomes, right? Why? Well, for political power, for to continue on, right, with a certain lifestyle. And I think that that is a huge juxtaposition, right? From the beauty that that you brought out of that novel, James, compared to the the darkness that is there from that other perspective, right? Um, that's that's powerful. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03If I may say, yeah, um, there's a great quote that I always quote from um, and my wife and I will say this back and forth to each other, um, from Remember the Titans, attitude reflects leadership, right? Um that that couldn't be truer in a in a church sense as well, right? Where the attitude of a person reflects their leadership, right? And why that's important is because somebody whose leader, who they look to as their leader, as their authority, if it's Christ, then their attitude will reflect Christ. Amen. In being self-sacrificial, in being loving, and being patient, and being kind, right, um, and being life-giving in the way that they deal with others. Whereas people who are trying to innovate the church and reinvent the church, right? They're the people who follow them, you see their attitude reflects their leadership, right? In that it's about the empire, it's about the brand, it's about, you know, uh their own authority. Exactly. So then you see it kind of fall apart when that figure dies. And if it was Christ, then the gates of hell will not prevail against the church, right? Because the church is synonymous with Christ, it's his body. But you see, depending on how these leaders and the people who follow these leaders, you see how their attitude reflects who their leader is. And that's in their arrogance about what they believe is the correct interpretation of scripture, um, the way that they deal with other people within the church, the way that they deal with other people leaving the church or separations within divisions, and that's ultimately what you see is the fruit of innovating church division.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Whereas preservation of what the the discipl what the disciples were trying to do was preserve the true teaching of Christ. And that's what we've been trying to do since then. But that doesn't require us to innovate or to reinvent or to go out on our own. That requires us to submit in humility and to preserve through sacred tradition and through the sacraments in an attitude that is far more a reflection of what St. James talks about, right? Of resisting the proud, but giving grace to the humble as Christ does, right? So I think that's very important, and you see that in somebody who's willing to die so that others may live. His attitude reflected who his leader was. And people should be able to see who our leader is via our attitude towards Christ, towards the church, and towards other people. Bingo.
Individualism Versus The Cloud Of Witnesses
SPEAKER_04Well said. Turning now uh over to Michael. Michael.
SPEAKER_06On the topic of authority, I think the Western mindset and conception of authority is, I think, as we know, pretty antithetical to the Eastern Orthodox Church's view of authority and where it's derived from. And ultimately, in the West, we have placed the final authority with the individual, as we've referred to. And that is mostly, you know, there's a lot of different factors that play into it, but I think mostly a result of the Protestant Reformation and their emphasis um on sola scriptura, because even if you place the scriptures as the ultimate authority, at the end of the day, a text is not going to interpret itself, it has to be interpreted. And we see oftentimes in Protestantism that ends up being the individual who's going to be the final authoritative say on what they believe that text says. Right. The problem is, I think there's a lot of problems with it, but one of them that comes to mind is it actually totally isolates you as an individual, not just in your day and age that you live in, but it cuts you off from an inheritance, it cuts you off from people who came before you, previous generations, and in a sense it cuts you off from future generations as well. So it puts you in a position where the knowledge or wisdom that you can try to accumulate in your lifetime is seen as being superior in some way as the accumulated wisdom of the ages, of what has been collectively known by the church for 2,000 years. And I think that part of the answer to that problem is understanding that not just getting like the doctrinal issue of authority correct, which is important, but it's understanding that we are really a part of a community, not just the current church community, but a community of both the living today, those who have gone before the dead who are no longer with us, and a part of the community of future generations.
SPEAKER_03Wow.
SPEAKER_06Where this, I mean, this is the cloud of witnesses that that is discussed is that we cannot just assume that we can counter what has come before us, but we have received an inheritance that has been passed down for a very, very long time. And one of the things from scripture that I think refers to this is back in Deuteronomy, I think it's Deuteronomy 29, Moses is kind of um renewing the covenant that the Israelites had with God. All of the all the Israelites are there, and he mentions that this covenant was for not only everybody who was there, but also everyone who wasn't present who would come after them. Which is a really interesting way to think about it, that Moses really, with his authority, was binding future generations to the covenant that was being made at that point. And I think in the Western mindset, the Protestant mindset, we don't think of that, we don't think of it that way at all. We don't think of ourselves as being bound by the authority of people who came before us. We don't even find ourselves bound by anything. I mean, a lot of Protestants will phrase it as, you know, you're not bound to anything that um, you know, isn't in line with your own conscience. But then you have this example from scripture where future generations for hundreds of years in the future of Israelites were bound by something that happened before they were even born.
SPEAKER_05Wow.
SPEAKER_06And so I think if we zoom out and look at it from that perspective, that we're a part of this huge community that isn't just my particular parish, my local church community, but all the Christians who have come before us and all the Christians who will follow after us, who will continue what we are doing now, gives us a different perspective on authority and where it comes from. And I think it requires um a lot of humility to accept that. I think that's one reason why it's hard for a lot of people to consider themselves to be bound by something that they didn't really have a say in. Um, you know, think you know, the ecumenical councils and the teachings of the church from hundreds or thousands of years ago. It takes a certain degree of humility um to accept that um authority over yourself.
SPEAKER_04Michael, that's really interesting perspective and well said. I I can't help but think of the you opened it by saying how America, right? We here in the West have such a radically different view of authority. And you're so right. Because I think about how hard it is, I think, to convince Americans really of you know, of orthodoxy for so many of the reasons you just said, and a lot of the baggage that they have. What is that baggage? The baggage is the capitalist Protestant work ethic, pull yourself up by your own bootstraps, my voice, my choice. Right. We all have this concept of you know the power of the vote and what I say matters. It's all very individualistic. Um, and I loved how you put that, Michael. Like we're not giving, and I think for most of my life as a Protestant, probably even in my early years as an Orthodox, I wasn't giving thought to that larger community that's preceded me for, you know, for 2,000 years, and even having a tie and an obligation to that future, right? Our progeny, right, who we hope are going to follow in our footsteps. Um, you know, Lord have mercy on this country. Um, we often we just had the 4th of July, we talked about America's the greatest country on earth. And I just want to kind of step back sometimes and say, really? You know, really? When we can't get over our own false sense of our own authority.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, the individualism that you mentioned, it just seeps into everything. It's it's not just a theological thing, it seeps into culture and politics everywhere. Um, you know, it's like finding your own truth and all this, but it is isolating, it cuts you off um from a local community and from the larger community as a whole. So, and we see the results of it too. It just it leads to fracture and division when you have go on.
SPEAKER_03No, no, no. On exactly what you're saying is is what I was thinking. Yeah. Um the whole the biggest lie of individualism and thinking that what what I do is isolated from everybody else, right? Is so wrong because we are all connected to the community, to our family, and to our progeny, our next generation. What you do has an effect on other people, and you can see it in the way that it produces violence, it produces um, you know, division, it produces rebellion, right? And you see it with a father and his children if he's not leading them in the way that they should go, and his sin begins to uh trickle down onto others, right? They they become what they behold, and that's why it's so important. People are looking at you. What you do affects the community. There's a great book. I know this it's not my time to talk about another book. That segment is over, but there is a book called Among the Thugs by uh Bill Buford, I think. Uh, and he he spends some time following the hooligans, the soccer or football hooligans of of England who were committing acts of violence that they would never do on their own. But there was a a different kind of morality around a mob. When it's just you, you would never engage in this kind of violence. But if you're in the mob and the mob is committing the violence, not just you, it's you as a as an arm of the mob. The things that he witnessed, the things that he saw from people who are just, you know, construction workers, uh, you know, they they have regular jobs, they have families, but they go out into the street, they look for violence, they hurt people and commit these acts that you wouldn't believe, and then they go home and go back to their normal life. And he talks about this, this um this psychological effect on people mob mentality. Yes, but you revert to being instinctive and animalistic, and that's the problem. You you cease becoming human when you become individual individualistic and isolated, like not even, you know, animals are that way, right? They they function in the in a community as well. So when we think about how Christianity is not just about you know being holy, it's about becoming human, like the ultimate form of humanity. It is not good that man should be alone. Never, right? Because you need to be connected to the body, right? If you're if you're close to the sheep, you should be, and to close to the shepherd, you should be connected to the other, or close to the other sheep. And people need to remember that Jesus said, when you pray, pray like this, our Father, right? So that it's not just you and Jesus against the world, it's you and your community under the same authority, right? So that you don't go off and do your own thing and and isolate yourself from the group. It's it's all it's all coming together for me. Like that's yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, I think one of the underlying issues that we that we face in in our particular culture is individualism. And the way to overcome that, I think, is humility. I think that ultimately that's the answer, which is a hard message, um, especially in just kind of the the mind, the American mindset to say have some humility and accept what has been passed down rather than the this feeling of needing to innovate and create something ourselves. Um so I think from that perspective of authority is ultimately that's the answer is we have to have the humility to accept what's passed what's been passed down.
SPEAKER_04Amen. Amen. Well said, Michael. Thank you for that.
Listener Stories From Hebrew Roots To Orthodoxy
SPEAKER_04So moving to um the final segment of Witness Weekly. We hope that you are enjoying uh this episode so far. Please remember every episode of Witness Weekly at the end, we're gonna be reading your comments. Um, so please let us know what you think down in the comments. We get these from Instagram, from YouTube, uh, TikTok. Um, but you can also email us at cloud of witnesses radio at gmail.com. Um, we'd be happy to uh read something that you'd like us to share. The first one, you guys, comes from uh David Coleman. This is this is pretty great. He says, um, by the way, this is a recent Cloud of Witnesses episode where um Taylor uh Biss, who was partly Hebrew Roots movement, uh became Orthodox. And David Cole says, This is a great interview. There are many of us out here making the same kind of journey. My wife and I are former Hebrew Roots messianic Christians and our inquirers and about to become catechumens. Thanks be to God. There's nothing like witnessing firsthand the liturgy and participating in the way we now do everything in the Hebrew Roots movement. Believers are looking for the feasts, the worship, the holiness, the liturgy, the ministry of the priests, the holy altar, the presence of Christ, his body, the New Testament. He said it's all in orthodoxy. And this is what the Hebrew Roots movement is thinks they're finding, right? He said, It's so beautiful and life-changing. I love these stories. Thank you for this interview. Glory to God. So God bless you, David, and your family as you guys are coming towards Orthodoxy. Um, but yeah, how true is that, right? And it's come up in our conversation even today, how important the participation in the churches and all of these things that the Orthodox Church has preserved. Say the quote again, Michael.
SPEAKER_06It's not that we're preserving the ashes, but the tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. I love that. I'll have to look up where that's from.
SPEAKER_04Okay, yeah, please do.
SPEAKER_06I didn't come up with it.
SPEAKER_04Or let us know if you know, but let us know down in the comments. Um, the next comment comes from uh Francine. Um, Francine is a woman who was also part of the Hebrew roots movement, and she may come on Cloud of Witnesses. Um and she says, uh, there was a group of Protestants who started attending my synagogue back in the years, this early 90s, looking for historical truth. So she was um a practicing Jew attending a synagogue, and Protestant Christians were coming to her synagogue seeking truth. Right? This is wild. She says, I found this very interesting because I was searching for truth also. Who is who is this God? Why don't we have the temple in Jerusalem? Why is the priesthood not here anymore? How could God let the Holocaust happen to my family? Fast forward. She says, I am Eastern Orthodox now for 25 years. Glory to God. And she says, by the way, Purim, which is one of the holiday festivals, it was one of my favorite holidays to organize, my kids around the Hebrew school. Um, God willing, she'll be coming on to Cloud of Witnesses. Her her spiritual father who gave her her blessing is father Peter Years, um, who we would also love to talk to someday, God willing. Uh that was pretty awesome.
SPEAKER_03I'm gonna recommend another book. Um you reached your book limit. Uh yeah. I apologize.
SPEAKER_04Three for the truly.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, the um Religion of the Apostles is such an important book by Father Stephen DeYoung. Um, for people to read who think that they need to go as far back as Judaism, because the Judaism of today is not the Judaism that they think that they're encountering from the Old Testament, right? Christianity today is much more akin to Old Testament Judaism than what they're looking for in Hebrew roots and all of these other things. What the Old Testament Judaism was pointing us to was Christ as a fulfillment of all of the things that were in the tabernacle, in the temple, and you have that there in the Orthodox Church, in our temple, in our altar, in everything that we do is much more closely linked to Old Testament Judaism than probably all these messianic synagogues.
SPEAKER_06Amen. Yeah, and Protestants looking into things like that, whether they're going to a synagogue or messianic Judaism, Hebrew roots, I think that's really a sign that they are realizing that what they're doing is missing something. It's missing something historical, it's missing something rooted, it's missing an inheritance that's been passed down. And so there's this natural inclination to look for something old, look for really where does this where does this connect back to right? So I think it's in some ways it's a good sign that people are starting to look for that. Um, and I think it's a really, I mean, it's a it's a great spot for people to be in to encounter Eastern Orthodoxy. Right. Because we've preserved all of those things.
SPEAKER_03Amen. 100%, guys. Well, according to those Baptists, those are the two in a thousand.
SPEAKER_04Exactly. We've already got two of them, yep. Um, next comment here is from um Slow Morrison 814. Um, he or she says, I spoke in tongues before coming to Holy Orthodoxy. One of the biggest deceptions about praying in tongues is this is wild, you guys. He says, You're encouraged not to pray as much in your regular spoken language. You're encouraged to pray more. He says, because you're told the tongues is a spirit-filled language and is between you and God. He says, So basically, the demons lie to you to prevent you from actually praying. Think about that. That I thought that was poignant. So he's saying he was one, he was once a Pentecostal, someone who spoke in tongues in that community, which, as we know, tongues is it's a lot of gibberish and nonsense, but they're encouraged to pray like that as much as possible. So if they're praying like that, they're not actually praying to God, right? They're doing this gibberish. So, how diabolical, right? How sinister um is the devil and and his demons to because you think about it, it makes perfect sense. If that's the right way to pray, yeah, do it more.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it kind of goes to show how all of these innovations they isolate you from a practice that's meant to heal you, right? Prayer is meant to heal you. And what this does is it creates some other spiritual practice that it that removes what is really going to have a positive effect on you, on transforming you, on healing you to do something that's ultimately nonsense.
SPEAKER_04Like Michael was saying, it it isolates you, right? You become your you're on your own, right? You're seeing your own version of gibberish.
SPEAKER_06And oh, sorry about that. I was just gonna say, it's one of the things that I love about orthodoxy that was kind of a hurdle at first when I was inquiring, is reading prayers of the saints. Whereas from a Protestant perspective, it was like you you're kind of not supposed to do that. If the, you know, people would say, Well, you're supposed to pray from the heart, as if you can't pray from the heart if you're reading the prayer of a saint. You know, we even Protestants will recite things all the time. We don't have to assume that they don't mean it just because you're reciting it. Right. But that's kind of the very opposite of this only praying in tongues is praying the prayers of saints who have gone before you and who have finished the race.
SPEAKER_04Amen. Amen. Last uh for today's Witness Weekly, um, we want to give a shout out to ICXE uh Emmanuel. Um, you guys probably know his channel. He's got an Instagram account, very popular, great guy. Uh, follows Cloud of Witnesses. We'd love to have uh you on the podcast as well, Emmanuel. Um, but this is pretty great. Someone reached out to us, his name is Andrew, um, and he saw that we had recently reposted one of Emmanuel's uh stories. And this is what Andrew said to us. He said about ICXE Emmanuel. He said, It's so cool seeing him like this. We were both deployed and we're stationed together, and he, Emmanuel, was the first person to pray for me when I was an atheist. Now he, Emmanuel, is an Orthodox, and Andrew says, and one day my family will enter into the church. What a beautiful thing, right? So this guy, you know, Emmanuel is out there deployed, right? Fighting for our country and is praying for this guy who's an atheist. And it's come full circle, right? To where now he's clearly something his heart is open to coming to the faith. Um, it's a beautiful thing. Thank you, Andrew, for sharing that with
Final Shout Outs And Farewell
SPEAKER_04us. Thank you, everyone who commented. Um, my name is Jeremy Jeremiah. This has been Witness Weekly. We hope you enjoyed this for Mario Andrew, James St. Simon, and Michael. We we really appreciate you being here. Leave us your thoughts and comments down below. We will see you on the next one. God bless you. Bye bye.