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Who Gets To Define What A Man Is? | Extended Conversation with Christian Deacon and LMFT
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Why Men Feel Lost (And How to Find Direction)
Masculinity has become a moving target. One day you’re told male strength is the problem, the next you’re told you’re failing unless you look like a superhero and never show emotion. We sit down with licensed marriage and family therapist Jacob Sedan and Deacon Anthony from St. Anthony the Great Antiochian Orthodox Church to clear the fog and name what healthy masculinity actually requires: responsibility, accountability, integrity, and a life rooted in Christ rather than image.
We get concrete about what men miss when “I work and pay the bills” becomes the whole definition of fatherhood. We talk about the power of example, how hypocrisy teaches louder than lectures, and why emotions are not the enemy. From a clinical perspective, Jacob breaks down the cycle of thoughts, feelings, and behaviors and what it looks like when men swing to extremes, either suppressing everything until it explodes or expressing everything in ways that make relationships feel unsafe.
Then we go straight at the pain point for a lot of young men: dating. We unpack fear of rejection, the trap of wearing a persona, and why authenticity and consistency create real safety. We also share practical frameworks for men who did not have strong role models, including building an “internal board of advisors” from faithful men, saints, and mentors. We close with boundaries that protect marriage, including a hard truth many couples learn late: your spouse cannot be your therapist.
If you want a Christ-centered roadmap for modern manhood, press play, share this with a friend who needs it, and subscribe and leave a review so more people can find the series. What narrative about being a man are you ready to unlearn?
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Why Manhood Feels So Confusing
SPEAKER_02Hi, welcome to Cloud of Witnesses. Jeremy Jeremiah here. Really excited about this episode. We've got a full house tonight joining us on the discussion of manhood, of masculinity, of what it means to be a man. We have joining us licensed marriage and family therapist Jacob Sedan. Welcome, Jacob. Thanks for having me. It's always great having you in the podcast studio. And as well as Deacon Anthony, uh, deacon over at St. Anthony, the Great Antiochian Orthodox Church. Deacon Anthony, always a pleasure. Uh thank you so much for coming by.
SPEAKER_00Thank you for having me too.
SPEAKER_02And we can't forget about Mario Andrew over on the keys. Mario, great. Uh we appreciate you very much. So men are confused. Men are constantly getting different messaging in the society, right? Maybe they're hearing masculinity is too much, right? You can't don't be too manly because then you're going to be uh hurting people or or bulldozing over people, being a uh bull in a china shop. Then on the other side of things, you're you're they're being told, well, no, you you know, you have to be um the Uber man, right? You have to be in the gym six hours a day. And if you're not ripped, then you know, what do you do? Exactly. What is going on? Why is it so confusing to be a man in 2026?
SPEAKER_01Jacob. Part of the reason men are so confused in 2026 is because the narrative that we have about what it means to be a man has been changed and corrupted. And so, as opposed to having one tried and true definition, this is what authentic, clean, healthy manhood looks like. We've got 10 different variations and no one knows who to believe. And so then the question becomes who can we believe and who is the authority to speak on this? Who's the authority to speak on manhood? And I wonder if you can speak to that, Deacon Anthony.
SPEAKER_00Well, before that, actually, if you want to go through this, why this is important. I mean, why do you think this is very important? I know the effect of it in our community and with our uh people that we meet every day, which I can briefly say, but I want you also to have your opinion on it. For us as as a clergy in the church, we see a lot of people are uh not following their duties, if you can say, or uh their responsibilities, not in a negative perspective, but in a way that it will not enable them to be fully who they're supposed to be. And once you fail or you're not fully into what you're supposed to be, people around you suffer. For example, a mom, if she did or a father, he did not take care of a certain hole in the backyard, the kids will fall in it, just for an example. So uh it it does not need someone. Uh it's sometimes if you don't do something that will reflect negatively on someone else. That's what we see for us.
SPEAKER_01But what
Responsibility Integrity And Real Leadership
SPEAKER_01about you? Well, you mentioned duties, which kind of goes back to narrative. So that that that's that assumes that there are certain things that we should be doing as men that we are failing to do now. So what are those duties?
SPEAKER_00I mean, there is a lot of them. I mean, uh first thing always pops in my mind responsibility, accountability, and integrity, for example. You have to always be responsible to take lead, and because you're usually the leader of the house uh spiritually, uh you're you're you're being a good example for the people in your community at your work. Uh that's one of the aspects that always come into my mind. And if you don't be accountable for what you're responsible for, usually it will not go through. I mean, you will you will fail of doing your responsibility later on. And integrity integrity usually continues that. It it what keeps you on the check always, just to make sure that you are following going through what you failed in responsibility, and you took like action after for accountability and maintaining it with integrity, always consistency. That's what integrity is.
SPEAKER_01Do you think we need permission to do those things? Do you think someone needs to tell us, hey, you're you're allowed to be responsible for this, or this is this is what I want you to do, or do you think this is something that we should just do ourselves?
SPEAKER_00And that's that's why I think part of why we're here, because uh a lot of men are not bad inherently, and they just fail to know what they want to do and what they have to do, or what they should do, or that what they should do. For example, uh, I talk to friends like fathers, and for them, being a father is just to protect and provide, and they completely miss uh their role as a father, as a father figure also to their kids, where to lead them, uh to show them how to fix the sink or how to fix the drill in the house, or how to be a good husband sometimes, how to show affection. How to show affection.
SPEAKER_02Those are types of things I think we get it gets lost in the mix sometimes, right? Exactly. I'm sure Deacon Anthony, you've heard people come to you, I would imagine a scenario of something like, Deacon Anthony, I go to work, I pay the bills, I'm responsible. What more, what what would that person maybe be missing if the it who has that perspective of, hey, I'm responsible, I go to work and I pay the bills.
SPEAKER_00What more can you ask of a man? I know. I I mean, from my from our perspective, that's just one of a lot of things. You being available in your kids' life, for example, leading them, and not by preaching on them, but being available when when they need something. Like, for example, you can say to the one kid, forgive, forgive, forgive, love, love, love. But at the first moment that uh someone cut you off in the street and you start angry, and the child will say, Dad, where is the forgiveness? He will never say it out loud. Of course, he will just think that you're we're just hypocrite. And so for us being there and following uh what we're supposed to follow, from living spiritual life, going to church, or if you always tell a kid first thing is the church, Christ is the center of your life, and then you don't go to church every Sunday, or you miss uh services, or that the church is not the center of your life, the kid will see then how Christ is the center of our life. Right. So there is this absent message, or this message of absence that we send to our kids and to the k to the people around us, including the wife, the moms, our mothers, our fathers. If if uh if if a parent did not take care of his parents, what do you think will happen? The kids will learn, and then by default they will not take care of their fathers or mothers later on. So it's a cycle of life, it's something that will go on. Uh we teach our kids by showing them what to do. And that that like get people all over the world.
SPEAKER_01Does that mean that does that mean masculinity is a behavior purely? Is it just what you do?
SPEAKER_00It's not about what you're doing, it's about how you're living also. I mean, you can be uh you you can see masculinity as as as as I said, not only as it's your role. It's how to become like how to become like a Christ, because for for us, Christ is the perfect man. Christ and you see Christ did not go to the gym six hours a day, and he was masculine. What? He was kind, uh, he he was loving, he was compassionate, he loved the truth, and that's a big part. For example, when we go uh in Genesis uh chapter three, we see the the story between uh the serpent Adam and Eve, and we see that Adam is standing up there watching the serpent talking to Eve and him not doing anything, he's allowing this to happen. Where if he was responsible or he took responsibility and quite literally he would tell Eve, what you're doing, you should not be doing what you're doing. So it's not only what we do, it's also what we don't do. It's both of them together.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I wonder from a therapy lens, we understand that a big part of your mind is what you think, which affects how you feel, which affects what you do. And so you need to kind of tend to all three of those things, my thoughts, my feelings, and my behaviors. And and and there's they do interact in a cycle and one affects another. How I think about manhood is going to affect how I feel about manhood and myself, it's gonna affect the behaviors that I engage in, and then the behaviors I engage in are gonna affect how I think about myself. And so how do we address all of those things? Because I think if I just started doing things that I think are manhood, which we still haven't completely defined, we're touching on accountability, integrity, responsibility. Um, if I just, if I just focus on what I do, but not how I'm thinking about this or how I should be thinking about manhood, I think I may be missing something. And then I think as as men especially, we can really tend to ignore our feelings. And then that can be a huge blind spot for us. Well, I'm just I'm gonna train the mind, I'm gonna train the body, but I'm not gonna tend to the heart or or perhaps the messages that I've received about manhood that are not working for me. And so I wonder where the solution is
Emotions Faith And The Balanced Man
SPEAKER_01in that. And and if we could take it a step further, where the church comes in.
SPEAKER_00I mean, our church is full of feelings and emotions. I mean, and we always see that during the whole year. You have seasons where uh length of repentance and tears and like, oh, I am a sinner, which allow you to express those negative feelings in you. And then there is the seasons where Christ is risen and the joy and the happiness. So feeling as itself is not something bad, and that's that's very important to understand because our emotions are part of us. We are not just body, but we are we are a very emotional creature. And by the way, the more we deny our emotions, the more we are trapping them where they will explode more and more. In another way, the more you deny that you're emotional, is the more you emotional you are. Because at the end of the day, you're not a robot. Like when I talk to some like young adults or even old men, they let me feel like oh, I'm I'm I'm Chad GBT, like I'm I'm so emotionless, I'm very logical, and emotions is only for women. And to be honest, I was guilty of that, and but then I tapped into uh like with the church with my spiritual father and with the friends, like to see how emotions are part of your life and it it complete you as a man. And we see that with Christ himself too. He he knew that Lazarus would raise uh rise up, uh be alive again, but he did cry. He's not a great way. Uh we see that with his with multiple times in the Bible. He was angry, uh, he was compassionate. When when he saw the widowed woman's son died, he he went and he did not deny his emotions. So we see that uh when in Jesus when he was uh praying, we see the fear, we see all this, because he was fully married. And he did not deny or shove down those emotions, thinking that he will be less of a man if he did not face them. But the full picture, and that's what the church, that's what the gospels brings for us. And in confession, it's always there's and that's why actually in the prayer robe we always like find the stencils, like and the father say we use it to wipe our tears. So there is nothing wrong with with us being emotional as long as we are in in control and aware of what we are doing, not ruled by our emotions, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Jacob, be on that, kind of piggybacking off of that, I I'm curious from a psychological, clinical, you know, practice perspective, what does it look like when you're you're working with men who come to you who maybe have gone one way or the other too far? They've either overprioritized their feelings and emotions because they're trying to get in touch with their feminine side, or they're on the other side, right? They're like, I don't need this, you know, I don't need my emotions, and they've only gotten me in trouble in life. What are you seeing out there in the real world in terms of your practice and and and what advice would that give and lead to this conversation in terms of from what Deacon Anthony was just now saying to us?
SPEAKER_01Gosh, what a great question. Um clinically, generally speaking, uh, men or or whoever you're working with, men or women, um, if you're out of balance, if you've swung to to one side or the other, the goal becomes how do we achieve balance? Um, so I have men come in who are typically, not to be too stereotypical, but typically suppressing a ton of anger that that if is not being expressed is being embodied. So kind of being tense and stored up in the body and then manifesting itself in all of different, all kinds of different ways. Or have swung to the complete other side and are expressing everything. And as a result of expressing every thought, every feeling, and an inability to tolerate anything that comes up are creating a sort of lack of safety around them, especially with women. Um, and and so then the goal becomes how do I help you? Um I'm trying to think of the perfect metaphor here, perhaps there is not one, but how do I help you just kind of swing back to the center and reconnect with yourself and determine for yourself what does manhood look like? And even that can be a balance. What does manhood look like for me in a sort of I hate to use the language, my authenticity, my truth-ish kind of way, and how do I look to greater authorities to help me balance that out? And and to be honest, that kind of clinical work can be kind of dicey. A huge, huge, huge part of it has to include what messages did I receive about manhood? Who told you that to be a man was to live like this, to talk like this, to behave like this, to treat others like this? And unless we can kind of go back and examine and reflect and say, oh, it was Uncle so, and so are Papa so, and so are this person or that teacher who told me X, Y, Z, then we're gonna be continued, continually ruled by these narratives that no longer work for us, that create chaos and swings in our lives and in our bodies. Um, and we're victim to them, unfortunately.
The Narratives We Inherit At Home
SPEAKER_02I love that. It's a great answer because you're speaking of these narratives that we tell ourselves, we've heard in our lives. They're probably disordered narratives in many ways. And Deacon Anthony, if I'm hearing you correctly, the church has the proper narratives. Yes. Right? The church has the lives of the saints, we have the gospels, we have the epistles, where it's just filled with the narratives of balance and and and and that that's the that's where the beauty comes.
SPEAKER_00And remember, we are creatures that learn by example. We don't learn by books. I mean, we I mean, we we can't deny books, but we learn better by example with the discipleship. So for example, if you grow up in a house that your parent, your father uh specifically, uh disrespect you by yelling at you or screaming at you or calling you names, and you grow up, you think that's the normal. Right. And I know a lot of ladies, for example, growing up in in environments like this, when a gentleman comes to them and he does not do that, they think he does not love us. He's he's there's something fake in him. Wow, there is something not genuine in him. So you're literally setting up the standard for your for your uh for your kid's partner when you do that, because my dad and mom supposedly are the where I am safe and where I am loved. So when so that's how safety and love, and that's why we find a lot of uh uh marriage, like abuse marriage relationship, the the the ladies also still go to an abuse uh husband because this is what they're used to, this is what they know.
SPEAKER_01Because what's not repaired will be repeated, yeah. Exactly. And so if they learned that if they saw it, if this is what they were taught, this is what masculinity looks like in my home, in my upbringing, then I'm gonna seek somebody like that. And and when that person is different, it's gonna feel foreign.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it feels like home. And I again a lot of examples here, like uh my husband is uh boring, or he's too quiet, he does not yell. He does like you hear some weird stuff going from people, like and like yeah, that that that's actually good. I mean, like take it. I mean, you why do you want him yelling every night?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_00Like you see, it we think it's crazy, but if you are it it does not feel home, it does not feel like uh like this is love. Literally, I was told multiple times that oh my uh your dad does not like personal, like your dad does not love you because uh he does not uh talk to you a lot, basically, but uh he does, but he does not yell at me or or disrespect me or passionately tell his opinion, so it will look that it's like he like you see what I'm saying? Yeah, so you're like what you're saying, like so. You see the definition of what love is, even is very like uh miss like misunderstood. And I love like now you can go to Google and write what is love, what is bad love, what is healthy love, and you start comparing and like I am in this bad love, for example, and like I show people like oh look, this is what love, or because it is hard to comprehend, for example, in many aspects from the gospels, but love is a truth, for example, it's not just an emotion. Uh it's I love you, I want to tell you the truth. Not a lot of people accept that this is love now, and you measure that, and another aspect also without vulnerability, there is no real relationship because then you're not showing who you really are, and you're just uh portraying a different person that who is not you, and I see, and Jacob can talk a lot on that, because when we're vulnerable, we we we are we can get hurt deeply, and not to be deeply hurt, we avoid and we build walls, and then people will not see who we are, and that will not be good for our uh like and I'm not saying be vulnerable with every person that you meet, but at least you have to have your spouse, your spiritual father, a couple of friends that or brothers or sisters that you really, really trust to be vulnerable and open with, because this is where you will get the feedback for your journey of repentance and becoming whary.
Vulnerability And Safety In Dating
SPEAKER_01And it's so interesting you say that because so many men come into therapy so afraid to show the people they love who they actually are. And and they're so deeply, deeply afraid of rejection, especially in dating. I mean, people are dating less than than they ever have, even though we have these apps and these things that we can swipe on all day long. People are dating at historically low numbers. Wow. And a big part of that, I think, is this apprehension and this fear to put myself out there and to be rejected. Yeah. And so we Embody these personas. And the issue with that is, well, you're not you're not being rejected, the persona's being rejected. And what would have happened if you would have actually shown up authentically? Interesting. The goal should be in not to go on a dating tangent here, but the goal should all with all of us in all of our relationships should be to treat everybody like we treat our best friends. To be real, to be fun, to be funny, to be playful, to be vulnerable, like you're mentioning. Because then if they reject us, at least it's the real us. Right. Not this other fake thing that we presented like we were going to a job interview. Right.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and and I know relationships that they go for years and they're hiding who they are. And they they lived a life, a lie, a life of lies. Because when they open up, they can be, as you said, rejected. Because to be honest, they were never loved how they're supposed to be loved. And that's that's that's where the problem, uh, because people like they're just scared. And but that's not good. That's why we say you have to be vulnerable, you have to open your mind and your thoughts and your soul for your partner at least, and allow him to come in your life. And if he does not like or she does not like who you are, then what's the point? Because in the end of the day, you're pushing yourself down. All this negative energy, all these lies, it it can explode. Like it will explode one day or another. I mean, and then you become, and I I think that's where anxiety and anger come from. Like you see, people like I I I always say, like it's like a cup of water, that the more we lie to ourselves, the the more we disconnect from our reality and our spiritual life, the more we push lies and lies, and then the cup will be full. So from real events. And once one guy cut off the road for us, he added that drop, and that drop will overflow, it exploded everything. So we will look like crazy people, like, oh, I'm so crazy, but we're not.
SPEAKER_02You brought up dating earlier, Jacob, and it's such an important topic. I think, especially for the audience of cloud of witnesses, which is primarily between the ages of 20 and 36. We know in orthodoxy in general, not just St. Anthony's parish, but parishes around the country, it's young men kind of in that age bracket, coming to orthodoxy in droves. They are interested in how do they approach a woman? How do they do so appropriately in the church? Maybe the, you know, these topics. But before we go to Deacon Anthony on that, Jacob, what are some of the narratives that are coming at these young men that are confusing them? What's the world saying, and how are you seeing that in your practice? And then, of course, I want to get Deacon Anthony's response to that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Oh my gosh, what a topic. Um men are being bombarded with stories and narratives and ideas about how they need to look, the money they need to make, how they need to dress, the dating experiences that they should have had, and all these things that that they think need to be prerequisites towards finding the right person. And it's just like weights on your back that are holding you back. Um, and it's a it's a huge crisis. And you see men in our churches who are so ready and primed to meet somebody, but are overcome with fear, anxiety, uh, concern. What is she gonna think? Uh, what's the right approach? Is there a perfect approach? Oh, she's with a group of friends, oh, I don't want to. And we just we just hold ourselves back. Um, and so what we do about that is a is a really good question. I think a huge part of it has to include dropping the mask of who you think you're supposed to be. Nobody's interested in a mask. And we were talking about safety a few moments ago. One of the most safest things you can be for a woman is authentic and real. And a huge part of that is when I see you at church or when I see you with your friends, if you take me out, are you the same person or am I getting different versions of you? Yeah. And we can be so terrified to be authentic and real and playful and silly and say, gosh, you know, I saw you standing across the room and I was so nervous to come up, but hey, it it's Jacob. And seeing what happens. And that kind of vulnerability, I know, I don't just think, I know creates safety. And I wonder if you would agree with that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, of course. So adding on this, not uh disagreeing with you, safety is when the woman or it's consistency. Like you are always consistent in in behaviors that you are representing. And you will not attract everyone in the world, and that's the thing. You have to be you have to know who you are, so you know who you want. That's also very, very important because a lot of people are confused. Uh what they want. So the they want a beautiful makeup model or they want a humble good wife. And I'm not saying those cannot be together, but it's literally subjective. Each one of us will see someone different than the other person, and that's very important that you realize that. But if you want to look at anyone, you always look at them as the image of Christ. Well, the theatre question.
SPEAKER_01If I could use a personal example, please. One of the best questions you actually asked me when I was on my dating journey is who do you want your daughter to be? And if you look at this woman and you would not be proud or happy with your daughter being a clone of her, and that's not your girl. Wow. That's it. And it has been the greatest measuring stick that I've ever used. And I think it's it's just a great question for all of us to answer and to think about when we're dating. And tying it into manhood, who do you want your son to be? And are you living and behaving and thinking and feeling and and and creating a life now in which if he was doing that same thing, you would be proud. And if you're not, well, there's the opportunity for growth. Right. Yeah, right. That's huge.
SPEAKER_02Um, well, okay, let's take this a step further then.
Finding Role Models When You Lack Them
SPEAKER_02Um I I I think this is wonderful. What is some practical advice? Because Jacob, the advice you just gave, I think is fantastic, right? And it came from Deacon Anthony, that that question, right? But what about someone who doesn't know even the starting point? What if someone who hasn't had a father, hasn't had a good parental relationship. So when you say that, they're not even really sure what the right answer is, what my daughter should be, or what my son would be. Other than what I've seen in movies, what I see in social media. Yeah, I want my son to be ripped, and I want my son to be an athlete, right? Maybe these things come to mind from social media. I want him to, you know, date young because he can. You know, these types of ideas. How do we combat that? How do we bring in the right narrative when social media is so influential in the lives of these young men?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I actually think that's a that's an answer for the church. I think it has to be. I think that the movies and and and Instagram and TikTok and all these people who are out there putting themselves on display are creating these narratives that we keep talking about that are corrupting young men's minds. Right. And that have them questioning, especially if you didn't come from it from a great role model. There's nothing wrong with you for having that experience or from coming from that lineage. It's not your fault, but it's your responsibility to correct it. And I think looking to the church and having a spiritual father and befriending your priests and your deacons and the established men in your church is a wonderful place to start. And and an exercise that I'll often invite people to do in therapy is to think of four people who you admire who you'd love to have to dinner. And so for young men, I would say, who are four men throughout history, dead or alive, that you would love to have for have over for dinner? And then what four characteristics do they embody? Okay, so if you want your priest, why? Well, he he's he's kind, he's gentle, yet he's firm and he's fair. Great. Those are four great values for you to have. What would it look like to start embodying those things? And so, in some ways, coming from from a blank or perhaps a stained slate can be difficult, but gosh, what an opportunity to wipe it and start over and and to truly decide from scratch who the heck do I want to be? That's exciting. That is terrifying. That's awesome.
SPEAKER_00And that's tapping, by the way, we are using the social media and the people around us, the actors, not around like on TV, because again, we want role models. So you're using those role models in your life instead of Christ and and and his sense. And people sometimes say, Oh, it is boring, I read a lot, or like it's impossible to become like that. God is perfect, how I will be. You are invited, and he Christ said, be holy, like how your father is holy. So you are invited, and saint actually means agios in the Greek, which is holy. So we say agios Antonios, holy Anthony, for example. So you are invited to go and see and learn about those stories, which will be your role models in the end of the day, and which will give you a roadmap of discovering those uh the characters that you want to follow and become the man you want to be.
SPEAKER_01And in some ways, I think the season of singleness is the best place to do that exploration and to do that work. Because once once you are in a relationship, it can become extremely difficult to carve out intentional time, to pause, to ponder, to reflect. Yeah. Uh and figure out how to do it.
SPEAKER_00Especially, for example, uh, if you want to be uh uh generous, for example, and your partner after you marry, she does not want to be generous. So you will have a big problem, like it can make a lot of issues between you and the household. Because you're moving in one way, she's moving in another way. Or and you see that, I mean, you know, with uh with raising up kids, uh a man like usually men wake up after 30 years. I don't know why, and then 32. So you you start before theory, I mean you're just like my son. How are you? I don't know. So after theory, you become you you like you now have an idea who you want to be. And if you are with a partner that does not agree on those characters, you will have a problem.
SPEAKER_01And um from what I've seen in dating and what I've seen in the in in couples' work and and and all the environments that I get that I'm fortunate to kind of interact in, is there is nothing more attractive to a woman than a man who knows exactly who he is, where he's going, and can invite her on the journey. And I've heard time and time again um from couples who are in successful relationships. And when I say, How do you meet? And often a story that I'll hear is he, gosh, he just seemed like he knew exactly what he wanted. And that kind of not playing around and not playing games and not like uh obviously giving giving the relationship due time to see if we are compatible, but knowing exactly where we were going together created the safety that we keep kind of coming back to here that kind of let me say, okay, I can trust him. Yeah. And I'm in this. And I'm gonna see where I'm gonna see where he's taking me in in the most respectful and kind and loving ways. 100%.
SPEAKER_02What I heard come out of this conversation, and I really
Direction Habits And Daily Self Work
SPEAKER_02love this, you guys. Thank you for engaging in this. I hear this is not something that happens by accident. And what I mean by this is you're not going to discover yourself, you're not gonna become the man you want your son to be someday by just, ah, I'm gonna do today what I did yesterday, right? Because it worked yesterday and I'm gonna do it again today because it's the it's easy. What I'm hearing you both say, this takes thought, it takes reflection, it takes probably some trial and error. Intention. Intention. It is. Can you talk about that, both of you, in terms of what that looks like?
SPEAKER_00I mean, the process is very, very painful, and it has to have a lot of humility and purpose and a reason. So you your reason can be finding uh a good wife, but in the end of the day, our reason should be I want to be the best of how God created me.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. There's a quote that I'm thinking of right now. I I I this is not original to me. Um, direction, not intention, determines your destination. And so you kind of have to ask yourself, what path am I on right now? Um if I'm secluded, if I'm spending all my time with the boys, as wonderful as the boys are, uh, you're you're probably not going to meet anybody in in that environment. Um and so w what direction are you going in? Are you are you are you moving your body? Are you going to the gym? Are you are you tending to your finances? Are you tending to your spiritual life? As you look at and as you take in uh an account and an inventory of your life as it is today, as you prepare for for finding a spouse and and and God willing one-day marriage, how are things looking? And if they're not looking the way you'd like, what changes are you willing to make? What changes are you willing to make really? Right. Are you willing to save up a little money so that when you do meet the right person, you can pay for a wedding and buy a ring and buy a house? And are you willing to work on your body so that you can be, if we're honest with each other, the best, most presentable version of yourself? And you can demonstrate a level of strength and and and steadiness that that a woman can can find safety and comfort in? Are you willing to go to therapy perhaps and examine some emotional wounds and and and patterns and pains from the past that just kind of keep getting repeated today? Are you willing to go to to your priest and talk about that issue that you you really think you have a grip on, but kind of sneaks up and catches you from behind, even though you said 10 times it was never gonna happen again? And what are you willing to do? Boys, I hope you're listening.
SPEAKER_02This is that was great, right? This, I think honestly, this is why people should, and I think Deacon Anthony would agree, should seek counseling. Yeah, right. This is the kind of thing that most people, and if if I can speak, I'll speak for myself, I don't think of naturally. I'm not naturally going down those roads in those terms. But to hear someone tell you that, then it gets my mind going. Um, and I think that's important. I think as men, for us to challenge each other. We think of scripture says iron sharpens iron, right? It's a very masculine metaphor. And I think that that kind of is at play here. But I really appreciate everything you just said there. That that kind of almost I would you say daily, Jacob. So a man should be thinking of this weekly, yep.
SPEAKER_01Give me this day my daily bread. Right, right.
SPEAKER_02Deacon Atheni, your thoughts um uh on what you understand.
SPEAKER_00Also, there is a big and the most important aspect is why you're doing this or what what is the motivation. And in the end of the day, everything has to go around our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. The relationship or the love that you have to have for him, it will motivate you to do that. Because if you love someone, you want to be with him, you want to understand him, and you want to experience him. And you can be, for example, with the like I I want you to imagine going back two thousand years ago, and we see the same Christ, the same God on earth, and we have different groups of people. We have this who have a humility and humble, and they were able to see Christ as a loving God as He was, and they enjoyed Him completely. And then you have this group of people who some of them were Pharisees that they did not enjoy Him, that He was a challenge for them, and they did not experience Him. And this is how we are in our life. In our life, we have to make the love of Christ is the most important thing, and on this you build the you you build yourself. That's that's essential.
SPEAKER_01I think you you have to recognize every single person that you interact with is contagious, every single one. And they are passing along something. And so as you think about manhood and you and we and we think about Christ and then what Christ-rooted manhood looks like, are you spending your time with people who are living this and and and carrying their crosses and at least doing the best they can? Wow. Because you're gonna be infected. Yep. We're all contagious, and so that selection process has to be brutal and it has to be real and it has to be authentic. Wow. And I think a part of taking responsibility for your life has to be a level of pruning. And gosh, we've been friends since high school, and gosh, we we had did so many great things together, and you've been there for me. And I I I want to keep you in my life, but I want to keep you in a place where I'm not gonna catch what you're doing. And I'm not gonna be infected to kind of keep playing with this metaphor by the ways you live, by the choices you make, by the way you talk, by the way you think, because I'm gonna catch something. And so am I putting myself in proximity to people who I would be happy to catch the way they think, feel, talk, behave. Are they in the church? Are they rooted in Christ? Are they in loving, committed relationships, or are they are they also seeking one? And ultimately is iron sharpening iron.
SPEAKER_02Amen. There's a saying I've heard, I'm sure you both have heard it as well. Water finds its own level. And I think if we don't follow your advice, Jacob, if we just kind of, ah, these are my boys, it's my boys, definitely. You're you're gonna be at a certain level, if you will, and that's who you're probably gonna end up with. And it's no wonder so many young men are experiencing poor relationship after poor relationship after poor relationship. Maybe because some of these things they're not doing, they're not following through on.
SPEAKER_01And there is something that that is almost uh uh shocking to experience, but I'll do my best to explain. Good, strong, healthy, authentic men are so willing to embrace you. I mean, unbelievably. Men who have suffered and who have have pushed and and have um gotten to a level of what we would we would all probably agree is a healthy masculinity will be so willing to take you in and to talk to you and to guide you and and to offer you support in whatever area of your life you need it. And so the only person, I I promise you, I promise you, I promise everybody listening to this right now, the only person who is holding you back is you. Wow. And you have to cut that chain and you have to let yourself go. Wow.
SPEAKER_00Going back also on uh like dating, uh you have to choose the right woman, as we said, that you will be uh vulnerable with. You have after you know yourself, basically, because after you know, um I'm not you will never know who you are. It's a life journey, but you will know at least what's the direction you want to go, and then you will you will find a wife that can go with you in that journey, and that's how you see her, and that's how you choose her. You you and there's unlimited number of options and qualities, but also it is not about just choosing, it's someone that you will be with for the rest of your life, and you will you you will you will love her and she will love you. It's a relationship at the end of the day.
SPEAKER_01Amen. Yeah, it's your business partner, it's your confidant, it's
Your Spouse Cannot Be Your Therapist
SPEAKER_01your counselor, it's your everything. Yeah. That choice is one of the most critical. And and a big issue that I see, especially in my couple's work, is that people marry someone and make them their therapist. And that is a fool's game. Your spouse, men out there, your wife is not your therapist at all. And if you put her in that position, you are going to wear her down and wear her out. Go find someone, talk about your stuff, process what you need to process, and come to her and share the journey and share the testimony. Because in some ways, we have to recognize each of us has a capacity. And if you expect your wife to be everything in all things, you're putting a burden on her that she has nothing. Meant to carry.
SPEAKER_02Amen. Jacob, to that point, people that are listening to this right now who are saying, you know what, I'd like to talk to Jacob more about these things.
SPEAKER_01How can they find you? Yeah, I'd love to talk to you. Come check me out, JacobSedan.com. We can get on a call and chat.
SPEAKER_02We have the information down below. Deacon Anthony, similarly, someone interested in speaking further with you, how can they how can they reach you?
SPEAKER_00I mean, they can come to the church to St. Anthony, or they can send me an email. We will also put it down.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00Perfect. All right, excellent.
SPEAKER_02Well, for Mario Andrew, um and Cloud of Witnesses, we are really thrilled about this conversation.
Series Preview And Final Blessing
SPEAKER_02I do want to, before we end, I want to kind of give a uh a foretaste of this is going to be a series. We want to, Deacon Anthony came uh a couple weeks ago and and had the wonderful idea of talking about topics like this and tying it. I know we I know we didn't do so tonight, but we will going forward, tying each one to a character from the Old Testament, a man from the Old Testament, Adam, Cain, Abel, you know, Noah, et cetera, good examples and bad, and using that as a way to bring out hopefully good Christian teaching, and we're gonna have the the wonderful wisdom of a licensed therapist with us as well. Um, so can you guys say a little bit to as we close this out, what you're looking forward to uh in this series as we move forward?
SPEAKER_00Basically, to lead by example, I wanna, uh as we said, we learn by uh by role models, and I want we want to discuss those role models in the Bibles, the heroes of the Bibles. And you will see that King David, for example, have the good side where he did follow and love the Christ, and he has this bad things that we all know about. And we will not only look at the good things that what he did, but also in what he failed to do, which made him separated in that time from Christ. And we will see that if we gather all the images of the Bible characters and we combine them into one, it will be the perfect man, which is our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. And each one of them have one thing that represent Christ, and and that's that's what we will be trying to do.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And at the same time, uh helping men recognize that although you are very special, you are not that unique, and you are not the first man who's ever existed. And there are many, many men from scripture and and the fathers included who have come before us who we can learn from and who have wisdom and and and things that we can kind of look at and say, huh, that's perhaps how I should respond to this situation. And and and for those of you who come from a background in which healthy masculinity was not modeled, allow us to show you a buffet of options of who you can look to and place perhaps on your internal board of advisors of these are the people that I'm gonna consult with. What would he do? What would he do? What would he do? And let that inform your decision and help you guide your life.
SPEAKER_00I love that. And there is no I don't know a saint that was born out of nowhere. What I mean by that, each saint, you will see a pattern saint that followed them and taught them how to walk the path. And you will always see that generation after generation. And this is what Christ came. If Christ just came to give us a book, he would write something and say terra. But he did not. He came and he established his like disciples and the church, and those took that and they did the bishop's the first early church, and then it continued all the way until now. And you will find it's a path, and that path you need a teacher, you need uh someone to hold your hand, literally, and show you how to live a holy life. And that's what I want to talk with you guys about.
SPEAKER_02Amen. Um, excellent. Thank you guys so much for listening this long to Cloud of Witnesses. We hope to see you on the next episode. God bless. Bye bye.