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Bold Christian Claim: What If The Church Never Paused for 1500 Years? From Pentecostal Cult to Jesus
What if the ache you feel on Sunday isn’t a lack of passion, but a hunger for roots? Tony Nektarios Vasquez joins us to share how a Pentecostal upbringing, a non-denominational season, and eventually a Calvinist-leaning church plant still left him asking where the first 1,500 years fit in. His story is not a theory lesson—it’s a family saga: a praying father discovering the Desert Fathers, a brother slipping out to Vespers, a wife and children encountering reverence for the first time, and a co-pastor who realized that history, Scripture, and worship belong together.
We trace Tony’s path from Pentecostal roots and a non-denominational church plant to a sober look at church history, liturgy, and apostolic succession. Family doubts, online study, and the beauty of Vespers turn hesitation into conviction as Scripture and tradition align.
• questioning charismatic altar practices and emotionalism
• moving from Reformers to the first 1,500 years
• parish visits to St James and first Vespers
• answers on icons, relics, and intercession from Scripture
• liturgy as continuity with Old Testament worship
• apostolic succession and the promise that the Church endures
• closing a young church to enter Orthodoxy
• finding healing and stability in the sacraments
We walk through the uncomfortable questions most avoid. Are altar manifestations genuine or coached? Does sola fide stand when held beside James and the early Church? How do relics, icons, and the intercession of the saints square with the Bible? Tony takes us inside St. James Orthodox Church in Modesto, where incense and chant weren’t novelty, but a doorway to Christ-centered prayer. He shares the moment his daughter said the hymns made her want to cry, the way Revelation reframed prayer as a communion of heaven and earth, and how apostolic succession answered the authority problem that haunted his independent church.
This conversation is a guided tour from system to story, from proof texts to a living tradition. We touch on the continuity between Old Testament worship and the Divine Liturgy, the claim that the Church Christ founded never paused or rebooted, and the quiet courage it took to close a young church for a faith that felt both ancient and alive. If you’ve wondered where the dots connect—Scripture, history, and sacrament—this is an honest map drawn in real time.
If this resonates, share it with a friend, subscribe for more thoughtful journeys into the ancient faith, and leave a review to help others find the show. Your questions and stories shape future episodes—drop them in the comments and say hello to Tony.
Questions about Orthodoxy? Please check out our friends at Ghost of Byzantium Discord server: https://discord.gg/JDJDQw6tdh
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Please leave a comment with your thoughts!
I wanted to see what all the ruckus is about. He said, I am going to build my church and the gates of hell will not develop it. Oh 15 that the that Christ contradicted his church. His words and changed his mind and said, But you know what? But for 1500 years, I'm gonna uh pause that and wait until a German monk comes and then redefined Christianity as just preposterous to make it turn for visiting uh my brother and top her. Hey, let's go uh 16 James to Marvel visiting with me. Let's just go see what it's about. Just uh um, you know, finally just get rid of that uh uh curiosity and after that I promise we we'll leave it alone, we'll leave Oxford Taxi alone.
SPEAKER_01:There were occasions, if I'm hearing you correctly, there were occasions where you were leading running this church, your dad's former church, on a Saturday night, you would be at a St. James Vespersing yourself and the next morning giving a sermon from a Calvinist perspective? Yes.
SPEAKER_00:I'm not I'm not gonna cry out here, but she told me, she looked at me, she told me daddy, while the people were singing in the hymns uh in the choir, I felt like fine, I felt something really beautiful. Tell his wife that he was just going to grab some food of a burrito. And uh she would track him on on on on on on the on on her phone to get the face and he'll get home and she'll be like, hey, I didn't know St. James told burritos.
SPEAKER_01:You know, if Tony Vasquez, Tony Nicario is our guest today. My name's Jeremy Jeremiah, you're in for a real treat. Tony came out of a sabotaging Pentecostal cult only to find non-denominational Protestant Christianity, eventually to found a church with his father that was basically Calvinistic in its theology, and then eventually to holy orthodoxy. And believe me, that's only part of the story. Tony is an amazing guy. This is a very fun conversation. We think that you'll learn and enjoy a lot of this. Let us know in the comments down below. Please give this video a like. We hope to see you at the end. Enjoy.
SPEAKER_00:This was probably around late 2022. My father, uh, my dad, he well, I find out my dad is launching a church out here in Modesto. And around that time, I was already kind of feeling that emptiness, even being uh at the non-denominational church. Uh by the way, I do want to mention that I realize that non-denominational churches are not really non-denominational. I think it's a denomination in itself, because I noticed I noticed that a lot of us that come from that background or people that ended up non-denominational are predominantly either from a Calvinistic or a Pentecostal background, and they just feel comfortable saying I'm non-denominational now, but they sort of you can chase their roots back to a Protestant denomination. Uh but um, and I just wanted to throw that in there. But yeah, it was uh around that time, I was already kind of second-guessing, not feeling too uh uh complete, uh, even being in in that ministry. Again, a uh great community, but there was always an emptiness, and interesting. Uh I was already questioning uh the charismatic movement. Uh on one occasion, I'll I'll share this respectfully, but uh I will say this is this is truly something that I experienced. And uh there uh was a service uh happening uh at this church that I was attending, and uh I was asked to translate for the senior pastor. He came to the Spanish uh uh service and uh he he you know preached a sermon about uh the Holy Spirit and the manifestation of the Holy Spirit and uh outpouring and uh etc. And so I was translating, um uh, but briefly I'll share, long story short, when he did uh what they call an altar call, uh I started coming to the altar, and I was sort of I was standing behind him, but I was observing what was going on, and it's just something didn't feel right in my spirit anymore. And mind you, I grew up in this movement before, and and very familiar with it, and I was uh uh uh uh sort of thriving in another ministry where I was doing a lot of uh evangelistic work and getting invited to preach at other churches and praying for people, and you see these uh charismatic uh uh manifestations and people falling and on the ground, etc., or being slain in the spirit or whatnot. Yeah. But uh at this occasion, uh after I had assisted the pastor and translating in the service, I'm watching everything that's going on in the altar call, and and I I could swear it almost seemed like these people were just coming, desiring to feel something, like some type of move, and and and and and and and it felt uh it felt very much manipulated, and it almost seemed like they were being told what to say or repeat when it came to Thomas. Like, let it flow, let it flow, or repeat after me.
SPEAKER_02:I don't know.
SPEAKER_00:Um and I something just I remember leaving service that day and uh I shared with my wife that something fell off. I just didn't feel like there was anything genuine there, like it was just not uh what they would consider to be a real outpouring of the Holy Spirit. And I think that's where my journey started to toward ancient uh faith, because when I find out my dad shortly after he had launched his church, he was leaning more on the Calvinistic side and he had abandoned the charismatic thought. So I was very interested in that because uh feeling uneasy about uh uh these charismatic manifestations, and I had came across certain content where it was very relatively uh uh close to these eastern pagan religions and kundalini and and all these uh Indian uh manifestations where it looks just the same. People start and throwing themselves and so-called drunk in the spirit or holy laugh. And and and and you only see that in these uh pagan movements that have nothing to do with Christ, and it looks very strange. So I I think that's where I started uh studying and and I would visit my dad often. I I I think at that time I was uh I stopped attending regularly at the church that I was going to, and I would have these sit-downs with my dad, and eventually I talked with uh my pastor at that time, and I told him I want uh I want to support my dad, you know, and and and and him and and what he's doing in his church. You know, I didn't really get into the whole uh denomination thing because it to me at that time it was probably uh probably irrelevant because I was just wanting to transition into helping my dad, but there was something in my heart where I didn't want to get into debates or arguments, I just wanted to peacefully, you know, uh uh leave peacefully and just support my dad. And and that's what happened. And I would have these conversations with my dad when when he launched his church, and I'm helping him out. I'm excited, I'm like, man, this feels right, and and I see my dad's heart, and we'll have these big discussions on theology, and I think that's where I started looking into some of these great Calvinist teachers like RC Sprohl and uh John MacArthur, Stephen Lawson was one of my favorites, and Body Bacam and Paul Washer, and the list goes on, and and I was just so set on these guys. I would read a lot of their content. I bought books, and I was just excited that I was I felt like I was getting closer to what was really biblical and ancient because it kind of was, I mean, in a sense, because it it went past the 1950s. Exactly, exactly.
SPEAKER_01:No, Tony, can I say I hear you 100%? Um, I myself came, I'm not gonna belabor it here because I've told the story a gazillion times on Cloud of Witnesses, but I too, I would, I had come out of a non-denominational upbringing. I became a hardcore Calvinist for very much the same reasons you're describing. Because from a non-denominational perspective, where church history doesn't even matter, I didn't even think about church history. Doctrine doesn't matter that much, right? It was all about just kind of, you know, are you in the word? You know, are you are you following Jesus today? So Calvinism was like, oh, you know, it was like this enlightenment moment where I was like, wow, there is doctrine. And man, I can read the past 500 years of history. And, you know, the reformers were brilliant and they wrote all these amazing, you know, confessions and catechisms, and it was like a enlightenment, you know. Um I just didn't know at the time that actually there was another 1,500 years um that I hadn't discovered. Um, but so so Tony, I just want you to know what you're saying. I can I hear you loud and clear. Please, please continue.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely. Sorry, I I know that was a bit of an extensive, uh long answer.
SPEAKER_01:No, it's good. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So you're speaking.
SPEAKER_01:So you're helping your father with this, his church. He was starting, it did it, was it a denomination? Did they was it Presbyterian? Or uh tell me about that. How how was that?
SPEAKER_00:That's gonna be another thing that uh I I do want to mention, and and and it's so very much seen in in the Protestant world. Uh my in-laws were very much uh joining us at that time in our church, and uh we were getting visitors as well. And everyone there had different theological views. Some were messianic, uh uh Jewish influenced, Judeo Christians, some were hardcore oneness, which were actually somewhat leaders in the church, and um some of us were Calvinistic uh thought, you know, which is leaning towards that. And it was okay because we all love God and we're we're coming to the same church. At the end of the day, we're gonna worship God. And um and that's that's kind of how it I think the journey started. Uh when when I came to my dad's church, we would have a lot of discussions, and I I I I started seeing and mind you, this church really only ran for about a year, and I'll get to that because somewhere down the line, there was a lot of occasions where I would go visit my dad, and I would find him in his room praying the way that he knows to pray at that time. And uh he would tell me, give me a few minutes, son, I'll I'll be out there. I'll be like, Yeah, that's fine. And uh we would have discussions after, and he would always share with me how his prayer was, God, guide me to all truth. Wow, Lord, please guide me to all truth. And that was always his prayer. And after a few months, I would notice how a lot of things were changing even in our church. And uh we started with instruments, and after a while, my dad was like, I think we probably shouldn't have instruments. Something seems a bit uh uh off about that. I I I at that time I didn't know, but we'll have discussions uh and he he shared with me how um while he was praying and asking God to guide him to all truth, he came across a video about the desert fathers and Saint Anthony, uh uh, which was uh we we know, you know, one of the uh main pillars of the monastic life and uh in orthodoxy and just in ancient faith in general.
SPEAKER_01:Uh literally days ago, Tony. I want you to know my parish is Saint Anthony the Great Orthodox Church. Yeah, so absolutely. Saint Anthony, pray to God for us.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, yes, absolutely. That's actually my father's patron Saint Amen. He Saint Anthony basically brought us to Orthodox, and I'll tell you why. It was something about the uh story of Saint Anthony that caught my father's attention. And at that time, it was just a bit of a dilemma for him because he's running a church, but he felt empty, like something was missing. He felt like even with all the uh uh uh effort that we're making to try to evangelize and and bring people, it's like sadly not as fruitful as we thought, because first and foremost, you know, we're we're in Modesto, where in the area we're at was predominantly Roman Catholic. So it's kind of difficult to come and approach people with with that background in uh years-long decades of tradition and just try to convince uh them that you have something more real than that when that's all they know. And and and they're convinced that it's ancient, and and and in a way it very much is. Um but at that time uh conversating with my dad, uh, I would talk with my brother a lot, because he was a leader in the church as well, and we start seeing a change in everything and some of the theology. And we went from Calvinistic thought where now we're looking at Luther. And um, I remember um talking with my dad on a lot of occasions, and he'll tell me, well, consider this and and look at this, and and if this were true, you know, even in the sermons, we started seeing that clearly he he started bringing up the Orthodox Church, even with worship and discipline. Just out the blue, he'll he'll mention that say things like, you know, that's why I admire the Orthodox Church so much, because their discipline and and and their way of praying and fasting is is very much disciplined and firm. And and I feel like that that's something that that we need. It was around that time that we knew I would have conversations with my brother. He would call me from work and we would we were so concerned, and he would tell me, dude, I think we're losing our dad, man. It's gonna happen to the church, and you know, and in a way in itself, we're thriving and the church is growing, but our main leader is might be stepping down from the sounds of it. And um it was part of pause there.
SPEAKER_01:Can we pause there? Because I I want to hear more about this. This is fascinating. So your dad clearly was, like you said, he he came across, thanks be to God, some video or something related to uh St. Anthony the Great, and it obviously sparked something in him. So it sounds like he continued to study about orthodoxy in whatever way. Exactly. When he would mention orthodoxy, for example, like you said, even in a sermon, is this the first time you heard about orthodoxy? Had you ever heard of orthodoxy before? Like what tell us about your thought process then when he would mention the Orthodox Church. What came to your mind?
SPEAKER_00:It was alarming at first. Um, I think the first time I had heard of Orthodoxy was when I heard the actual name Greek Orthodox. And this was years before, even when I was uh living in LA at that time, um, with my wife and kids, uh uh my two oldest, we were part of her church uh uh in South LA, which was another branch of the uh Pentecostal Sabbatarian movement that I grew up in. Yeah, and uh my brother-in-law, uh, he would sometimes mention Orthodoxy. Um shout out to him. I love him to death. He he trolls a lot sometimes, but he would bring up the Greek Orthodox Church. And uh to me, it just seemed very Catholic. That's what it seemed like to me. Uh when I actually would hear like actual chants or similar to Gregorian chants or Gregorian chants, anything tied to that, I it seemed very Catholic to me. Right. Uh, but I I had heard of that's really the only uh few times that I had encountered orthodoxy. It was on one occasion that I went to visit my dad, and I would obviously visit him regularly, and especially with running the church, you know, we'll we'll talk a lot. And on one occasion I I went to see him and uh I went in his room and and he told me, hey, uh sit down, man. I want you to look at something, watch this video with me. And this was around the time where we were already having a lot of uh uh internal debates within the ministry, you know. And so I sat down and I paid him, you know, uh uh some some of my attention and um I started seeing this video of now I know uh amazing man of God, Father Josiah Channel. Uh at that time I I I didn't know. I I was looking at the video, I'm like, what is this Catholic stuff? And uh I think what scared me the most about that video was that everything he was saying uh made sense. So his I think the title of that video was The Dangers of the Teaching of Faith Alone or Sola Fide. Sure. Um it was a clip from one of his first uh uh documentaries uh or interviews regarding his book Rock and Sand. Yes, uh his the first version of that book. And I'm sitting there listening to the video, watching it. Everything he's saying made sense, but it bothered me because at that time I'm huge five solas, and I'm like, no, I I got it all down, I got notes, and I'm huge on the tulip and and faith alone and whatnot. And it it alarmed me, but it made sense. What he was saying was very much true, and and it was it what was crazy about it is that with one simple verse, he pretty much refuted all of what faith alone stands for. And it was with what uh is written in the Epistle of James that faith without works is dead. And I know Calvinists hate to hear that, but that's the reality. It's in scripture, and St. Paul was very much uh uh uh in communion and uh submitted to the church, and he knew Saint James well. I doubt that they had any theological disagreements. I mean, you read some of Paul's letters. I know as former Calvinists, we like to reference a lot to a lot of the epistles of St. Paul, but when you understand the context and where he's coming from and and and what he's actually writing about and why he said it at that time, it does not contradict with what St. James is saying.
SPEAKER_01:Not at all. Not at all. Exactly. Paul himself says, work out your fear, excuse me, work out your salvation with fear and trembling, right? That's exactly right. Yep.
SPEAKER_02:That's exactly right.
SPEAKER_01:That's that's beautiful, Tony. Um, I tell you, I I couldn't help but get a huge smile on my face as you're describing all this. You and I a lot of our story overlaps in in some of those ways. Because I remember when I was first confronted, mine was because I I was talking with a Roman Catholic who was challenging sola scriptura as opposed to sola fide, and I was the same way. I had my five points, I had the systematic theologies, I thought I had it all figured out, I was ready to argue anybody and anybody uh on those topics. And what I found, you nailed it, is I found that everything he was saying was making sense, and it and I didn't want it to, because I thought he was wrong.
SPEAKER_02:Right, right, right.
SPEAKER_01:He had to be wrong. He can't be right. Um and so, yes, it's it's those moments, Tony, that I really do believe, not to belabor this point, but why these dialogues are so important. I know a lot of people kind of get on the ortho bros and you know, online debates and all that. And you know, I I I get it, you know. So I think some of the criticism uh is is well heard. Um But at the same time, there's another element to it in which people are genuinely having their ideas challenged, and there's a forum now for it to where they can see both sides. And in many cases, they can see both sides argued very well by knowledgeable, educated people. And so it's giving them an opportunity in some ways to kind of try out another theological perspective, you know, in a safe place, right? Uh without your friends looking over your shoulder, so to speak. Um, and so I just feel there's a there's a real beauty there. And I know that the internet and all that can be abused, and it's got a lot of issues, of course. Um just like in any forum in the world, the demons are there as well. Um, but I think that's a call for the church to be there all the more. Right. Absolutely. So so take us forward then, Tony. So you're you're you were you're saying you and your brother were afraid you're gonna lose your father to some you know quasi-catholic thing. And what what happened from that point forward?
SPEAKER_00:I started losing my brother. That's what happened. Really?
SPEAKER_01:Your brother turned too, huh?
SPEAKER_00:So he shared with me how I think we were all doing this. We we all started studying orthodoxy and our efforts to disprove my dad and to show him it's gotta be wrong. Look at these points. My brother, at that time where he was working, um, he would get a lot of uh decent downtime and he would stream videos and he started reading and and and watching uh all this amazing content uh related to church history, because that's the biggest thing I think when searching for the true gospel is church history is crucial because every single denomination that exists on earth uh regarding Christendom, even pagan religions, they all have a date that it was founded. Yes. And for us it was huge, because that's how I started uh uh looking past Pentecostalism when I I realized it's only a hundred years old. Founded in 1901, Calvinism 1520 something, and uh you know, Lutheranism 1517.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um but long story short, my brother on a few occasions he he he called me and he told me he he was emotionally touched, and he even told me he he he would cry on some occasions watching these videos from a lot of these amazing Orthodox uh uh priests and ministers that were breaking down the faith and kind of that's what I love about orthodoxy that there's no room for second guessing. They will answer every question and walk you down that road, and any doubt that you have, any question has an answer. At that time, you know, I I thought I was losing my brother. And long story short, you know, I noticed they stopped showing up to church. My brother just called Turkey stopped showing up to church and he turned in his leadership, and you know, he was very much a backbone in my dad's church, and we were all serving there. I was somewhat uh what you consider kind of a co-pastor with my dad, and um my brother's just so I I gotta mention this because I know he'll get a kick out of it, and everybody will, but his wife, obviously, uh my sister-in-law, very, very smart woman, and she would always she loves God, obviously, and she would study. She's good at studying, you know. And at that time, she had a leadership in the church too, and we'll have these intense debates with my dad, and and and how it just seemed like we were going backwards. And at that time, it just seemed like my dad's just becoming Catholic, point blank.
SPEAKER_02:Sure.
SPEAKER_00:But we didn't understand really the stance of orthodoxy. Um, but she would share uh at that time, now we laugh about it, but my brother, he stopped showing up to church and he would sneak away. And apparently, St. James in Modesto was the nearest Orthodox church, uh, closest to anything that was a true Orthodox church.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:He would uh leave his home and um tell his wife that he was just going to grab some food or a burrito. And uh when she would track him on the on her phone and his location, he'll get home and she'll be like, hey, I didn't know St. James sold burritos. You know, and it was just it was just uh a lot of uh intense back and forth. And uh I think it was the first time he visited, my dad went with him. And as I mentioned, you know, they stopped showing up to church. My dad eventually stepped down and I I took I took over the church. You know, at that time I would conversate with my mom and and I would tell her, I I remember sitting down with my dad, and and he would tell me, um, look, I prefer that you don't suffer this way because running a Protestant church is very much um hurtful on all aspects. Because I remember he would tell me, How are you gonna sustain the church? And and and the reason I bring that up is because when we started the church, when my dad started the church, his heart was not in the place that a lot of these um Protestant churches are in or evangelical churches. A lot of them are just a business. If you really look into it and study and and see how it's ran, it's a business, man. They generate money. I remember being at uh a Christian university years ago that I attended in Oakland, Benton University. I met so many people, students in my classes that were not even Christian. And they were pursuing it either because they had to be there or because they got a free scholarship, or on the business side, I mean, the business side, let's be honest. There's a lot of people that run churches just because there's a lot of money to be made because they know they they can manipulate people and sustain themselves from that. Um, my dad's heart was not in that place.
SPEAKER_01:And at that time, seeking the truth, Tony. Your dad was legitimately seeking the truth. You told me uh a brief, you know, you barely mentioned it, but to me it speaks volumes of who your dad is. You said how you had walked in one day and he was in his room praying, and he, you know, asked you just to wait a little bit and he came out and talked to you afterwards. Your man being a f a man of prayer, um, and and earnestly seeking Christ and seeking the truth. Um, I see in all of this so much the hand of God leading him to the truth, even though it sounds like it was painful and difficult at many junctures. Yes. Um, so God bless your your father, Tony, and thank you so much for for sharing that.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely. You know, with that being said, I mean, it was around that time already that my heart was I was seeing my dad's intention and and his heart where it was at. And I I wasn't too sure I wanted to continue with the church, but something inside me, I think I was wrestling with pride as well. And and sometimes even telling, I would tell my mom, I I don't think it's a coincidence that this church started. Or I mean, I'll confidently say I have nothing to fear anymore. A lot of it was pride, like and and just thinking, oh, you know, now I'm gonna run the church. And you're the leader. I'm the leader, and I think this is how I'm gonna please God by by being in in the front of a church and whatnot. And um after a short while, I you know, I it was just out there already. My father and my brother were visiting St. James Orthodox Church in my desktop. I wanted to see what all the ruckus is about. I wanted to go see and and and and and and see why it is that my father stepped down and and and that my brother was just stopped showing up to my dad's church. And yeah, I remember walking in uh in a on a Saturday evening. I had just missed Vespers, but I walked in and and and I seen my dad talking with a few of the uh brothers there, and I seen my brother and um amazing community. I I just remember one of the brothers um shook my hand, uh subdeacon David, and he was really friendly and just had that kind spirit. And he I don't know, I I think he knew I was curious because obviously I'm I I I showed up after hours and I'm looking for my dad and brother, and he was really nice enough to uh ask me, Hey, would you like to see the sanctuary, the inside of the church? And I said automatically, I was like right away, yes, I uh I would like to see it. Yeah, thank you, you know, and and we're conversating, and and and and and he knew that, you know, uh um I obviously I wasn't Orthodox, and my brother and and and my dad were inquiring, and as he's walking me through it, and I first walk in, I see saints everywhere, all these saints and figures on the walls, and and I'm taking advantage, you know, because mind you, I just showed up just to see what's going on and why I lost my dad and brother to orthodoxy. And uh and I'm asking questions, I'm taking advantage. And you know what caught my attention uh with this brother is that every question that I had, I had already been looking into orthodoxy. So I kind of I think uh uh uh uh in the back of my head, I already had these questions implanted that I needed answers for. And uh one of the topics I I remember asking him was uh uh regarding relics, and uh he just had an answer right away. Well, you know, we we we reference it to scripture and it goes back to uh uh uh Elisha and his uh bones when he was dead. Uh they his relics were in a tomb, and um the scripture clearly declares that a man was murdered near him and they threw his corpse in there. And when his corpse touched the bones of Elisha, he came back to life. We believe that there's a power there, you know, with the holy saints of God. Just had an answer for everything, and and even regarding the Fail Tokos, and uh I'll briefly share that. And and I I just kept visiting occasionally every other I'll I'll leave for a few weeks, and again we're debating with my dad and brother, and then randomly on one occasion I was visiting my brother, and he he was excited, he was ready, he was on his way to another Vespers. And this time I told him I would tag along, you know, see to stay the whole service because last the last time I was at Vespers, I missed it. Yeah, and um, so I I I I went and I joined him, and I I regret that I showed up that way, and the brothers know uh at the church, but it it's it's funny, but I'll share it. I I showed up with these Yeezy lookalike crocs, some shorts, and a gray sweater that had the five solas on it. And I walked into the church. I was so irreverent, but I I went, you know, and it's part of the story.
SPEAKER_01:And uh hey, it was it was your truth at the time, man. That you know what I mean? Yep.
SPEAKER_00:No, I got to stay the whole Vespers. I remember my experience was how my spirit was naturally inclined to participating. I didn't really know much about crossing myself, but I saw everyone doing it, and my brother doing it, and so focused on God and the altar and what was going on with the priest, that after a few minutes into Vespers, I started doing it myself. I'm like, okay, governance. And I start crossing myself. And then you got the deacon coming with the incense, and and and and every everything that was going on just didn't feel unbiblical or evil to me. You know, they're mentioning the mother of God, but very much uh uh uh uh inclined towards Christ and asking for me. It all points to Christ 100%. It was exactly uh it all pointed to Christ, and something in my in my spirit just felt right at that time. But again, I was still wrestling back and forth and several months after that. It I think God was already the Holy Spirit was working in me because I I felt uneasy, even when I took over my dad's church. On one occasion, I was sitting with him and my brother in uh my brother's backyard, and I I kind of broke down. I told him, Dad, look, I'm running this church, but I feel drawn to orthodoxy, but I'm scared. I'm afraid because I don't want to just leave the church, I don't want to just close the church, I don't know how to do it. Uh I don't know if, or maybe I'm wrong, or I'm gonna tell you this, and you might get a kick out of this. I even told my brother one time, what if we're bewitched? Or what if you're bewitched? Like you don't think we're potentially, or you're bewitched in a sense, because you know, if if if if if we've been taught our whole lives that these things are wrong, or anything that seems Catholic is erroneous, what what if that's you know, we're just feeling drawn to it because of some type of bewitching or whatever? I don't know. And uh I I would often bring those things up, but it but then but every time that I would show up to uh a service at St. James, it just felt the complete opposite. Everything just felt right.
SPEAKER_01:And um so Tony, let me let me ask. So there were occasions, if I'm hearing you correctly, there were occasions where you were leading, running this church, your dad's former church. On a Saturday night, you would be at a St. James Vespers crossing yourself and the next morning giving a sermon from a Calvinist perspective. Yes.
SPEAKER_00:And the funny thing is, we started having Bible studies even when my dad would still join, where we were starting to look past uh uh the Reformation and the names and the likes of uh Agustine, of course, or even Tertullian. And um, but it just happened uh uh at that. Like I love what Father Josiah Trennum says. And uh he said it one time in a state with me, he said, no one can convince you uh uh uh of orthodoxy or to become an orthodox Christian, no one can pressure you into doing it just by words. He said, if you want to see it for yourself, you have to come by yourself and come experience it for yourself. No one's gonna uh uh uh convince you of it. You have to come and experience the ancient church. And that's exactly what started happening. I remember on one occasion, uh uh I was at my brother's place again, and my wife and kids we were visiting, and uh Vespers was approaching, and I remember I would tell my wife that uh we should go visit, and she she and she felt uneasy, she didn't want to go. She had also grown up very much uh uh Pentecostal. Yeah. Uh but on one occasion, I I don't know why I took a risk and and and Vespers was approaching. This was probably around 4 p.m. And uh we weren't really ready for church, but we were visiting uh uh my brother, and I told her, Hey, let's go uh see St. James. You don't want to go visit, come visit with me. Let's just go see what it's about, just to um, you know, finally just get rid of that uh uh curiosity. And sure, and after that, I promise we we'll leave it alone, we'll leave orthodoxy alone. And uh I'm thinking, I'm hoping we go, and she'll tell me she didn't like it or the kids won't like it, and we'll leave it at that and we'll continue with my dad's church. So she agrees to go with me. We show up to St. James, and it was the complete opposite of what I thought. No way, and I don't, and not in a bad way, but at that time it might have seemed like it wasn't to my favor. But after service, I I I'm talking with her, and she she tells me, she shared with me that she completely loved the Vespers. And mind you, we we we don't know anything about orthodoxy or anything liturgical, right? But for some reason, that attracted us and it did something in us. And this this is the part where I just knew that God was telling me to stop being hard-headed at that time because I already knew I uh my dad's church wasn't going anywhere, but I was being prideful, hard-headed. After that service, my seven-year-old Mia, she I'm not I'm not gonna cry on here, but she told me, she looked at me, she told me, Daddy, while the people were singing in the hymns in the choir, I felt like crying. I felt something really beautiful. Wow. And that that was already confirmation to me that God was calling us to the Orthodox Church, the church that he founded. And um shortly after that, um, shortly after that, on one occasion, uh my wife shared with me and my uh uh father, we we were visiting them, and she she had shared with me before that uh, well, one of our kids was sick, and something came to her while she was laying down in her bed. I must have been at work, and a thought came to her mind that she should ask the Virgin Mary, since she's a woman and she had a child herself for intercession.
SPEAKER_01:And I remember this is one of your children?
SPEAKER_00:Yes, that was uh ill at that time.
unknown:Wow.
SPEAKER_00:And uh my wife said that a thought came to her mind that she should ask the failed tokels, the the Virgin Mary for intercession because she was a woman as well, yeah, and she understands you know what it is to have a child and to nurture a child. And that's pretty much how it uh that was a blessing for me, you know, and how it all just everything everything started falling into its place, and and I just knew I had to be in the uh Orthodox Church. And um shortly after, a few months after that, we kept visiting St. James and my first ever liturgy, I just knew it. You know, my heart was already already convinced that I was gonna close my dad's church and and just commit to the Orthodox Church. And it was after the liturgy, everything just felt so beautiful, and and I was already convinced in my mind that this is the form of worship that God desires. And and it goes back to the Old Testament. Why else would he tell Moses and uh the people of Israel in the tabernacle that this is uh the way that he wants to be worshipped? And you see it, everything's just uh um correlates with that, you know. It goes back and it's a continuation of that. And it and it and I dare to say that orthodoxy is older than 2,026 years, it goes back to when creation started, one God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and that's how he planted uh uh uh his church and how he wants to be worshipped. And everything just started connecting the dots. There's a brother that uh he's newly illumined, and I remember one time we were um conversating, and he told me that he went, he fell down a loophole. He has a similar background, only he was more uh raised oneness. And he told me with these words, he said, Orthodoxy, he said, is the only place uh where the dots actually connected, you know, when he fell in in that uh uh loophole. And um it's it's been uh uh truly a blessing. Uh uh when after that first liturgy that I attended, I was with my dad and uh his uh my brother and his wife, which was already visiting uh the Orthodox Church before we even committed to uh St. James. And I remember I went and I just knew in my heart like this is it. uh I'm gonna turn in the church and there were already some things happening in the leadership at that time that it just wasn't going anywhere so it was assigned to me like this the Orthodox Church feels right I'm wasting my time over here we're not headed anywhere it's not going anywhere I'm gonna turn in the keys because I know my heart is my heart is here already and which is why I'm I'm so grateful for the internet you know and and its vital role right now how it's uh uh it can be used in a very positive light uh because it was a lot of these videos I remember this one specific video of a uh a Russian Orthodox church where I saw the priest and I saved this video because that video impacted me it was simply a a uh a priest or a deacon that was in the altar and he's saying prayers that I don't understand in Russian but he's waving the incense and I see the congregation in the back repeating after him or saying Lord have mercy and that's the video that was haunting me the one that in a good way the one that I shared with my dad that one time we were in my brother's yard where I broke down I told him everywhere I go every my my uh uh uh feed is filled with orthodox stuff and and and and I can't run from it and it's like God is just calling me and and but it feels right but I'm scared because of this uh these certain uh these other theological views that I'm not familiar with but I was already studying it and it and it made a lot of sense already you know even with the intercession of the saints was difficult for me to accept but they're not dead because that's that's the biggest argument Protestants yeah the first thing they'll say is well they're dead why are you asking them you know uh for intercession or prayer and but they're not dead and it's it's it's not necromancy because necromancy what it does is you you're trying to invoke the dead uh uh uh uh which you know they're not uh formerly uh a Christian uh uh uh dead uh uh deceased right uh uh what what it teaches is that you're invoking the dead to come and do favors for you and that's not what we do we believe what scripture says Christ himself said God is a God of the living and not the dead amen and to be absent from the body to be present with the Lord present with the Lord and they're very much still part of the body of Christ and they were part of the body of Christ what else can they be doing in heaven and Revelation chapter uh eight verse four says Revelation chapter five uh speaks of the saints and the elders with the incense how they carry our prayers to God and and then one of the biggest ones for me one time I was having a debate with a uh family member regarding that matter and um I brought out Luke 15 uh verse seven if I'm not mistaken so if they're dead and they can't hear us why does scripture clearly declare that there is a feast in heaven when a new sinner repents they're very much aware it's a feast up there if they know what's going on you know and they know what's going on here yes and they're and they're you know scripture also declares the uh righteous prayer of the just avails much and uh uh uh how how much more them that are fully justified now made righteous before God uh it's just very clear in scripture but we're we're in in the Protestant world you're taught to not believe that to to believe a false gospel and all these heretical views that are modern and have nothing to do with what the early Christians believe because that was huge for me. It was well let's see what the first Christians believed and it I a hundred percent I would tell anyone if you want to know the mindset of the church and what the early Christians believe just look at the first second and third century Christians how everything was liturgical. Even uh I think uh Acts chapter three verse one it says uh Peter and John were on the way to to the uh temple on the ninth hour of prayer and everything was liturgical everything was very much seen from that uh uh uh light and perspective and they passed it down that's all it is it's just a continuation and those were the biggest vital things for us even uh I would have conversations with my dad and he'll tell me look son I know we love God I know we want to serve God I know we want to run a church but let's face it we don't have that apostolic secession we don't have that unbroken line it's just reality you know and and he said and in the future if that's what God wills you know so be it but we have to do things right we're not doing it right and there's a structure and there's a church that was established and and and that God very much uh uh founded and my biggest thing is is is this when Jesus said to the apostles uh um say matthew 1618 if I'm not mistaken he said I am going to build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it that's right so to think that the that christ contradicted his church uh his words and changed his mind and said but you know what but for 1500 years yeah I'm going to uh pause that and wait until a German monk comes and and uh redefines Christianity it's just right it's preposterous to me it's just preposterous Tony thank you when you when you phrase it like that and I hope and pray that our reformed you know Protestant brothers and sisters are listening to this right now and heard you say that because that is what they have to believe as a Protestant they have to believe that after Christ established his church through his apostles and said we know this from Paul just to quote another one Tony that the church is the pillar and ground of truth.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely except for the first 1500 years it's going to be a little squishy on the truth. Right however you're gonna believe a German monk uh 1500 years later right and and somehow ironically too Tony they are happy to trust and defend the Bible the scriptures that were preserved by those same fallible people for 1500 years they somehow preserved the the Bible right and they're willing to accept that but not the church that pres that did the preservation.
SPEAKER_00:Tony this has been absolutely a blessing can you let our audience know if they're interested in reaching out to you or or talking with you is there any way that that you want them to get a hold of you absolutely um I predominantly right now I'm more active um because of a lot of family and friends on Facebook you just look me up Tony Vasquez Jr. um Tony Vasquez um TikTok Tony Nectarios um I'm not too active on Instagram right now but um yeah you can shoot me a message um but we uh brother I I just want to say I appreciate this opportunity and trusting me uh with sharing our uh story I mean it's a blessing you're always welcome as well to come down to St. James would be awesome to meet face to face uh we're at uh uh what is it 725 Mays Boulevard in Modesto California and I I would invite anyone you know that's uh uh wanting to uh see the church that Christ established it does exist it is still around very much unadultered and unchanged and you can find healing in the sacraments and and and communion and confession uh uh uh all these things that are vital and important for us things that I was missing out on that I think every Protestant is missing out on there are mysteries that Christ established and left that are very much necessary and do preserve the church and very much uh keep us you know uh until that day you know he he said it um he that perseveres till the end will be saved.
SPEAKER_01:Look at that you made it to the end. We hope that you enjoyed this episode the conversation with Tony was great and I'll tell you it went on for close to an hour and a half I think even maybe even an hour and 40 minutes. If you want to hear and see that uncut, unedited episode it's available for all of our Patreons right now. Go search Cloud of Witnesses on our Patreon and you can have access to early episodes and always uncut unedited episodes we hope that you enjoyed this one. Please let us know down below what you thought. Say hello to Tony we hope to see you on the next one. We really appreciate you being here. God bless you. Bye bye