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After the Shot: Leaving Mormonism & Witnessing Tragedy: What Happened to Charlie Kirk at UVU
A packed campus, a live mic, and a question that cut to the bone: is the historicity of the LDS church stronger than Protestant Christianity? Noah Nielsen—born into a deeply LDS family, now a Christian and Division I runner—was there at UVU with his phone out, capturing the exchange about Nephites, Lamanites, witnesses, and the golden plates moments before a single gunshot froze the crowd. His perspective ties together two seismic moments: leaving a faith that shaped his childhood and surviving a tragedy that reshaped his sense of safety.
A student-athlete recounts the day a campus Q&A turned deadly and the long journey that led him from deep LDS roots to Christian faith. We explore evidence claims about Mormonism, the missing clips controversy, trauma after the shooting, and the costly choices of conviction.
• UVU event setup, lack of security, and crowd mood
• Why Noah filmed the LDS exchange and what was said
• Historicity challenges: Nephites, Lamanites, witnesses, golden plates
• Family’s exit from LDS after research and social fallout
• BYU transfer, rebaptism ultimatum, and walking away from a scholarship
• Theology contrast between biblical monotheism and exaltation claims
• Firsthand account of the shot, panic, and escape
• PTSD, returning to campus, and rebuilding trust in public spaces
• The guiding question of conscience and cost
We walk through Noah’s backstory from Northern Ireland to Utah, where church life was family life. When his mother’s sincere study unearthed troubling sources—the Book of Abraham, polyandry, the Kinderhook plates, Nauvoo Expositor, and Carthage Jail—their home shifted from certainty to questions. The social cost in Utah was immediate and painful, culminating in a move across the country to breathe again. Noah’s own study moved beyond history into Scripture, where the biblical insistence on one uncreated God clashed with the LDS path of exaltation. That conviction would be tested later when a rebaptism ultimatum was tied to his BYU scholarship. He declined and rebuilt at UVU under a punishing deadline.
Then there’s the day itself. Noah arrived early to a pulsing amphitheater with little visible security. He filmed the faith debate that many claimed never happened, watched the dialogue tighten around evidence, and then heard the shot. What followed was panic, a scramble through bottlenecked exits, and the long shadow of trauma: avoiding campus, scanning every room, and relearning how to be in public places. Through it all, Noah returns to a simple question that steers his choices: what’s the point of gaining the world if you lose your soul?
If you value honest stories about faith, freedom of speech, and the cost of conviction, this conversation will stay with you. Listen, share it with someone who needs it, and tell us which moment struck you most. And if the full, uncut conversation helps you process it all, support the show and access it on Patreon. Subscribe, leave a review, and join us for more candid, thoughtful stories that refuse to look away.
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Just no security at all. Walk in with backpacks, walk in, no security checkpoints whatsoever. You know, like that stuff doesn't happen, like we're fine. Um, and then of course, the worst thing that can happen does happen. And immediately hit the ground, and she was just like, we're all gonna die. I mean, it's like the mecca for Mormonism. You know, my parents wanted us to be raised in this environment and be around other people. And then obviously eventually, you know, I'd be going on a mission, and you know, my friends would be, and all these things. So we moved to America when I was five. Oh my gosh, like my grandparents back when they were my age, they probably did different rallies and different things for, you know, this was that was their patriotism. This is like my way in my generation to kind of like be a little bit patriotic and kind of show up to these things. And what happened is when she told my dad that she was having doubts and stuff. At this point, my parents are both individually 40 plus years into the fake. And I immediately heard that and I was like, oh, this is super applicable to me. This is super relevant. I'm very interested in this. I'm gonna video it. You know, I want to send to my parents because I was the only one from my family who was there. Historical and significant that day was, and to think this was at my school, I was there, I videoed this. It's really profound.
SPEAKER_01:Our guest today was there the day that Charlie Kirk was assassinated. Noah Nielsen is our guest. He is an amazing young man who has quite a story himself. He came out of the Mormon faith. He was LDS his whole life. His family spent over 40 years in the Mormon church, and he now is a Christian and has seen through the fables that is the LDS faith. So, Noah on that fateful day was at UVU. He saw the tragedy occur right before his eyes. He was even taking video of the moments leading up to that event. It's an amazing story. Noah is an exceptional young man. I hope that you enjoy this. Please stick around through the entirety of this conversation. It only gets more interesting as it progresses. We hope to see you at the end. Thank you for being here. Please share with friends and family so that others can hear Noah's amazing story. Enjoy. Hi, welcome to Cloud of Witnesses. My name is Jeremy Jeremiah. We've got a very special episode today. Today I'm talking with Noah Nilsen. Noah, welcome to Cloud of Witnesses.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you. I'm very excited to be here. Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_01:I made this video right after the death of Charlie Kirk, the assassination of Charlie Kirk. Um, obviously the entire country, Noah, you may remember, was um floored by the events. Noah, you were there. You were at you and what does UVU stand for?
SPEAKER_00:Utah Valley University.
SPEAKER_01:So you were at Utah Valley University. You were you're actually are you still a student there or you were?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I'm currently a student. I run there and attend school there full-time.
SPEAKER_01:This video that I posted, and we can watch this really quick, Noah, if you want to get a sense for it, okay? And I apologize, I haven't heard this in a while, so we'll see what I said. Look, I don't know who needs to hear this, but on the day that Charlie Kirk was assassinated, the very first question he was asked was, what were his thoughts on the LDS, the Mormon faith? He was very polite, he was very kind, but he in essence said the truth. LDS and Mormons are not Christians. He even called into question the very historicity of the Book of Mormon and many of the core doctrines upon which the LDS faith is founded. I got a lot of comments that here on this YouTube video. But what I got a lot of was right here, this kind of thing. Grandma Cookie said, lies. He did not say that. Okay. You see that there? Yeah. Um a lot of people asking, you know, do you have the video? Do you show the clips? You know, where's the video of him saying this? And I get it, that's fine, right? Because I didn't give proof. Here, what are you talking about? Charlie said he loved Mormons.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um aren't people who believe in Jesus Christians? Here's another one. This um, no, he didn't say that. You're clearly being biased, etc. etc., right? Um he never said that. Here's another one, but I had no video, right? None. So then I did find where's the archaeological evidence for the nephytes. If you guys had any idea how many Mormons came into my chat and were saying, that didn't happen, Jeremy. Charlie Kirk did not question the Book of Mormon. Charlie Kirk did not question the golden plates. You're making this up. Why do you lie?
SPEAKER_03:Okay, where's the archaeological evidence for the nephites?
SPEAKER_01:Okay, where's the archaeological evidence for the nephytes? So, Noah, that was it. That's I did a lot of searching online. I spent hours because I'm thinking, like you, I'm thinking there were thousands of people there. Everyone's got their cell phones recording this thing. Somebody's gotta have released video of him talking about when he was commenting on Mormonism. Noah. Nothing.
SPEAKER_00:I know. It's like it was a blank scrub. There was, I looked for stuff aside from my own thing, and there was nothing.
SPEAKER_01:And this is where I want Noah to pick up the story. Something happened. Noah, take it from here from your perspective.
SPEAKER_00:This was a few days after the Charlie Kirk incident. I think it was on like the 13th or the 14th, maybe of September. And when I was at the event, the first question of the day was you know, um, the kid came up and he was saying that he thinks that the historicity of the LDS church is more reliable than that of Protestant Protestantism or just the Christian church as a whole. And I immediately heard that and I was like, oh, this is super applicable to me. This is super relevant. I'm very interested in this. I'm gonna video it. You know, I want to send to my parents because I was the only one from my family who was there. And so I ended up posting a video, and then I hadn't seen anything else. And I was like, surely there's more angles. People probably got the end of it because mine cut off because it got really loud. Um, and then seriously, like you said, by the grace of God, I came upon your video that you just showed us just on shorts on YouTube Shorts.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And everyone was like, Where's the rest of the clips? Why is there no videos of this? And I was like, Oh, this is perfect for me. I have about three minutes worth of the entire conversation. And so I commented on like probably five or six threads in the comment section, and then you reached out to me and it just kind of went from there.
SPEAKER_01:So yeah, I got your email and I was like, Wow. I I remember I even went into my wife. I go, City, you're not gonna believe this. Like this guy named Noah just reached out. He was at the Charlie Kirk assassination. He has video of it.
SPEAKER_03:And Andrew's a woman. So you need to say, everybody, I'm an evangelical Christian.
SPEAKER_01:We're gonna have fun with this, but I'm not walk us through this a little bit. This is you. You took this video. What's it like? What's it like even just seeing that right there and and hearing Charlie Crook's voice?
SPEAKER_00:It's it's like very surreal. I mean, to even think back on the day and think about what I actually witnessed and experienced and how historical and significant that day was, and to think this was at my school, I was there, I videoed this. It's really profound. And not even in the best way. Like it's a tough thing to think about.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um, but to be able to be there, I mean, I was so excited. It was an incredible atmosphere. When I got there, I was kind of like, oh my gosh, like my grandparents back when they were my age, they probably did different rallies and different things for, you know, this was that was their patriotism. This is like my way in my generation to kind of like be a little bit patriotic and kind of show up to these things and make a difference and whatever else. And so I was super excited. Um, and then obviously it took a big, big turn, but I was just looking forward to it. And then I heard this question and I was like, oh my gosh, like such a treat. Like I'm I'm in for a treat. But I mean, it's really surreal to think about it. I I just I still can't grapple with the fact that like I was there.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So, Noah, let's let's pause right there. Let's let's talk about your story. Okay. You've you've hinted here, um, and our audience is probably curious. Why, why were you excited that Charlie Kirk's first question was about Mormonism? Let's talk about your story, Noah. What just let's let's go back.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean, a very brief overview, because it can get pretty in-depth. But I was born in Northern Ireland and I was raised there in a very Mormon, very LDS family. Wow. I mean, very, you know, generational. Um, my mom's side of the family was essentially the first family in Northern Ireland. They were essentially the church. Like that was who the church was. It was my mom's family. It was her brothers and her parents, and then like literally one or two other people. Wow. Um, and so I was born and raised there. Um, my mom was a seminary teacher, my dad was in the state presidency multiple times, my uncles have been bishops multiple times. I mean, whatever else. And so we ended up moving to Zion, Utah, when I was five years old. Um, because I mean, it's like the Mecca for Mormonism. You know, my parents wanted us to be raised in this environment and be around other people. And then obviously eventually, you know, I'd be going on a mission and you know, my friends would be and all these things. So we moved to America when I was five. Um, and then where things really took a turn is when I was eight and a half, my little sister was born. And so what happened is my mom had three kids at school and then a little newborn who slept 16 hours a day. And she had this realization moment of, I just brought another human into the world. I need to be the best Mormon I can be. And I need to understand the faith, and we need to live it out in the best way possible. I mean, families are such a cornerstone in the faith as well. And so she had oodles of free time to research church history and to look at doctrine. And it started out in really, really good faith, and her effort was super pure. And um, but what she found was holes, and then she would say, Okay, well, you know, let's find the answer to patch this hole up, but that leads to another hole in doctrine and church history. And so it just led to kind of like a snowball effect, you know what I mean? And so over the next few years, my family started to exit Mormonism and exit the faith. And then what was really a huge catapult and blessing is COVID for my family, because what happened is we had already stopped, we'd been weaning out of attending church. And being in this condensed environment in Utah, you know, if you don't go to church, you have two or three neighbors knocking on your door on Sunday, hey, we missed you. Like, where were you today? You know, it's very, very concentrated. Wow. And so COVID was a blessing because everything went online and we essentially were able to fully walk away from it. Um, and what we did at this point is we moved to North Carolina because, and this gets into some deeper things, but to leave Mormonism inside of Utah, it's social suicide. That's what my family calls it. I mean, rejected by our family, our extended family, rejected by friends. I was kicked out of my ward carpal in middle school on the way to school. Um, you know, I was kicked out of that. Like they couldn't even drive me to school, huh? Nope, couldn't associate with me. You know, they stopped knocking on my door. I didn't have play dates with anybody anymore. I mean, just things like this are just like a surface level example. Sure. But essentially it becomes social suicide. And so we moved to North Carolina because we needed to get out of the environment. Um, while we were there, we had our names officially legally removed from the church's records to, you know, kind of cement that. Um, and then we actually ended up moving back to Utah for my senior year of high school. Um, and what happened then is I ended up getting a scholarship and I went to go run at Notre Dame for my freshman year. Yeah. Uh I transferred, I entered the transfer portal last spring and I transferred to BYU, where I was signed on scholarship for four months. After four months, I was told that I needed to be rebaptized into the church, that they had basically found the records that we had removed years prior. Um, and to keep my scholarship, the only thing I could do was to get rebaptized into the LDS church. And I said no to that for a few reasons. Um, but I said no to that, and so I was I had 36 hours before the deadlines um to apply for UVU and very, very blessed. But I ended up getting into UVU and being able to run on the team here, and that's how I ended up at UVU. So not linear, not what I ever would have expected, but just one thing led to another. And that's how I ended up being there in September.
SPEAKER_01:That's amazing. Um, I've got questions, Noah, because this is this is very, very fascinating. Um, and by the way, congratulations, man. It's it I'm very, very proud of you. You're so you're are you doing cross country or you do track? What what kind of run are we talking about?
SPEAKER_00:Track. I mean, I train all cross country, I train year-round, and I'll race sporadically during cross country, but track's kind of my season. Gotcha. What events do you do? I run the 800 in the mile.
SPEAKER_01:Great, man. That's awesome. Thank you. Um so because yeah, absolutely amazing to hear what you're describing. I can't even imagine what it was like for your mom in those those years uh with her children. I'm assuming it sounds like all she knew was Mormonism. I I would love to hear like what she do you know, Noah? What what things? I mean, is it kind of maybe some of the common things that she was finding online that were challenging the historicity of the faith or things that Joseph Smith or Brigham Young had said? Do you know what some of the reasons were?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so it's funny you say that. I actually have my Bible next to me, and inside the Gospel of Matthew, um, I keep this sticky note that she gave me. I don't know if you can see it.
SPEAKER_01:Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_00:Um, to me, this is like a piece of history because on this, what happened is there's five things on here that she had issues with in the church. Um, and what happened is when she told my dad that she was having doubts and stuff. At this point, my parents are both individually 40 plus years into the faith. I mean, born-raised, this is missions, kids, baptism, I mean, everything, right? And so he was like, give me a list of things, I'll look over them, we'll get the answers. And so on this sticky note, and I keep this because it's just such a beautiful reminder of just how God works and does to him. But um, on here, there's polyandry, the book of Abraham, the Kinder Hook plates, um, Joseph Smith and Carthage jail, and then why the Navu expositor. So those were the five things that she brought to him about talk to him about. Obviously, there's other things like polygamy, which for her, you know, being faithful or being faithful to the faith, like that's a really hard thing to have to grapple with.
unknown:Sure.
SPEAKER_00:The whole polygamy concept, especially as a woman and everything. Um, and then there's other things. I mean, but these are the five. But there's a part of such a variety of stuff.
SPEAKER_01:Noah, what is your what is your experience with or knowledge of those five things? I'll give you an example. That last one, the um what was it, the expositor?
SPEAKER_00:The The Navajo Expositor.
SPEAKER_01:What I don't know anything about that. Are you able to tell our audience what that's in reference to?
SPEAKER_00:Yes, I can talk about it. Give me some grace because there's obviously some things that I might mess up. Sure. Um, but essentially a very bird's eye view. The Navo Expositor was this uh newspaper in the city of Navoo. Um, and what happened is the Navajo Expositor had started to write, and what they were doing was essentially bringing to light and exposing the polygamous practices of Joseph Smith as well as other things. I think inside of there as well, um the Navo Expositor claimed uh that he was like a con man and some other things. But I think the big thing at this point in time was really the polygamy, because for a while that was kept heavily under wraps, even though it was being practiced and doctrinal and whatnot, it was denied publicly. And so this really brought it to light. And then I believe if I can remember correctly, um what happened is Joseph Smith ended up commanding for the Navajo Expositor to be lit on fire. And so there he's charged with arson, which I believe is what ends up sending him to Garth jail. Yes, right, and so that was why the expositor was so relevant is because it was exposing these polygamous practices and then arson and then it leads him to jail. Wow.
SPEAKER_01:And then he becomes a martyr. Yes, correct. Wow, Noah. Um do you know? I'm curious, and and we're we're not gonna belabor this here, but your average Mormon on the street, or even maybe just the kind of the Mormon response. What's the Mormon response to the Navu expositor?
SPEAKER_00:Oh, essentially that it's just blasphemy and that it was lies. Um, and there's some really good videos online that I've seen where people go in and um, you know, there's the the claims like if you were to ask missionaries about it, it's like, oh, everything said in there was untrue. Uh it was a misrepresentation, it was skewed, different things like this. But there's some, I mean, if you look at it and you look at the evidence, you'll find that actually maybe not all of it is 100% true, but you could say probably 80% of it is 100% true and it is actually accurate. So the response is to deny and then say that it's not true and that's a misrepresentation, but in all reality, it it's pretty true. And it's and it still had to be burned down. Yes, exactly. Why would you burn it down if it was not right now?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, exactly. Um okay, Noah. So your family moves um out of Utah um because it that you talked about that social suicide of leaving the church. And what a, you know, unforeseen blessing in COVID, like you said, to give you guys some respite, a little break, right? So that you weren't getting that stigma necessarily when everything went online. My mother has a longtime friend, she's known her since preschool, um, and she is not Mormon. Um, but they moved to Utah many, many years ago, and she has talked about it many times about how she knows she is an outsider, right? She lives there, she you know, she has a decent life and everything, everything's okay. But she says that she it's palpable, and she's brought it up, you know, time and time again over the years. Um, so I've some experience hearing about that. My question, though, what kind of confused me is in in I remember because you and I were emailing a bit back and forth prior to this. You guys came back to Utah and you ended up applying to BYU. Can you talk me through that? Because to my mind, I was like, wait a second, you left Mormonism. Why would you want to go to BYU?
SPEAKER_00:Correct. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Can you talk to us about that?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, totally. So moving back from North Carolina to Utah, um, a few things. It gave my mom really two years to kind of heal and recover and our family as a whole to, I mean, we moved out, we were living in a beautiful place out in the woods, and it really was like a sanctuary. It really gave us time to kind of recover and maybe get our bearings after leaving and everything, which is a really tough thing to do. Um, but my mom really felt called to come back and she felt like her story, her knowledge, there's other people. And that's one of the hard things is when you are leaving the faith, you feel very isolated. But in all reality, a lot of people are going through it. Sure. So she really felt like if she had this experience for her to sit and not utilize it would be a waste. And so she wanted to come back here and be able to, I guess you could say, be a benefactor and you know, help with Bible studies and different things and you know, other women leaving the faith. Um, because she's been there and she can offer guidance for them. And then for me as well, the high school that I went to was ranked number one in the nation for running. Um, and so and I wanted to go to college to run, so it's super advantageous. Um, and then fast forward to the whole BYU thing. I was at the University of Notre Dame, but I was really struggling there just with the team culture and everything. It felt really negative and I just wasn't having a positive experience in that aspect. And so BYU had just won the national championship for running, and so they were the best team. And I was thinking to myself, okay, number one team in the nation, the coaching there, they have the most active Olympians um out of any program. You know, I'm 30 minutes away from family. Yeah. Um, just I was like, yeah, on paper, this seems really great. And I understand there's the LDS aspect, and I'm gonna have to take religious courses, but you know, when you look at everything else, it's gonna be a great fit. And so I entered the transfer portal and got my scholarship, and that's why I wanted to go back there. And then everything else happened.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, interesting. Okay, so that makes a lot of sense. I I appreciate you explaining that. Um, I'm just gonna say it. Um, I've never met your mother, obviously, but she sounds like an amazing woman. She needs to write a book, she really does.
SPEAKER_00:Her life is fascinating, and she yeah, she's really incredible. Her courage to come out, I mean, just I can't thank her enough for it. And some days it's really hard for her because of still the social aspect of everything. And she's like, did we mess up? Did we make the wrong decision and everything? Right. And I just gotta remind her like what she did took so much courage and faith. She's the most amazing woman. I mean, her story, 10 times cooler than mine. I'll be the first to say it. She's she's got a crazy story.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I mean, it's yeah, I mean, God bless her, Noah. That that it really is phenomenal. Um, and thank you for your encouragement of her. You know, I'm sure she gets strength from you as well. Um, you seem like not you're not an average Joe yourself, Noah. I'll just say that right now, man. I mean I'm really happy to be getting to know you here. Um okay. So you end up um coming to UVU as a student.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Can we talk maybe before we go a little bit further into the Charlie Kirk video uh that you recorded? Can we talk about we've talked about your mom and obviously her journey out of the faith makes sense? You yourself, let's talk about you. Because you were obviously, it sounds like for some of this, you were pretty young. Yeah. What was it like for you as you got older? Um, and you know, obviously were able to look at things more yourself, etc. What was that journey like for you? Did you kind of just immediately realize, yeah, no, my mom's right? Was there ever a time where you were like, hey, mom, no, we're Mormons and the Mormon faith is true? Like, talk to us about that journey, if you don't mind.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. The first time that my parents ever brought it up to me, I was probably 10 or 11 years old. And it was like very vivid. I remember this. We're sitting in you, we're sitting here at our home uh in Utah. My parents came up and they had to have a talk with me, and they're like, sit on your bed. I'm like, oh shoot, like, am I in trouble? Like thinking of every bad thing I've ever done. You know what I mean? Yeah. Um, and essentially the the essence of the conversation was something like, listen, we're not really gonna be attending this church anymore. There's been some things we've been lied to about. There's some things about Joseph Smith that we were told weren't true, and they are. Um kind of that was it. I mean, I'm like 10 or 11 years old. How much can you really tell me? And I remember sitting there and I started bawling, and I'm like, no, like this can't be. Like, I can't believe that I've been lied to and we've been lied to and all these things. And my parents were like, you know, imagine how we feel. Like, we're 40 plus years old at this point. I mean, our kids, like, that's that's they're very invested, you know, more than a 10 or 11 year old. But obviously, being a kid, you trust your parents' judgment, you know that they're doing what's the best interest for you.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_00:Um but what my parents never did is they never uh forced anything onto us. And in the same way that they found out for themselves what was true, they were really awesome because they gave us kids the same liberty to do so. And so I ended up when I was 12, I ended up becoming uh I got the priesthood in the LDS church. You know, I could pass the sacrament and different things like this. And so even though we were mentally out, there's still the aspect of being physically in and going through the motions. So, you know, I got the priesthood and you say what?
SPEAKER_01:The Pimos, P C I M O. I've I've seen videos of Pimos online, they're like physically in, mentally out.
SPEAKER_00:Mentally out. No, that's a it's it's such a good representation it's so true. I mean, we were mentally out, we knew all the things, but there I was on Sunday mornings and like passing the sacrament and stuff. And then my sister actually ended up going on a mission um because for her, like, you know, she was 19, and so she needed to uh she was like kind of like what is true, and so she was like, I'm gonna go on a mission. And she actually got called to go and serve in Ireland, which is kind of ironic because that's where we're from, and that was the one place she didn't want to go. But she ended up going there, and then as I got older, um, when I was probably 13 or 14, I actually started. This was of my own motivation, actually really taking a look for myself, which I understand is a pretty young age to do so. I was really interested in um ancient Egypt at the time, and so I knew the book of Abraham had some connections to ancient Egypt, and I was like, cool, this is like best of both worlds, let me look into it. So the book of Abraham was the first thing that I ever looked into, and then since then, I mean, that's like five six years, six years ago now, just every day for the last six years. I've just the first two years were intensively more church history as well. But and my mom says this, she's like, you can only wade in the mud for so long, eventually you kind of gotta get out of the mud. And so then it turned into more of like, let me study the Bible and let me grow my relationship with Jesus. And at that point, it moved from, oh, I see a lot of issues in church history to oh, I actually see a lot of biblical things that don't align. Um, and so that's kind of my own personal thing. I mean, it's been a six-year walk at this point, but yeah, that's that's amazing, Noah.
SPEAKER_01:So for our audience, what would you say if you had to pick, you know, one or two things that for you are the death nail to the validity of the claims, claims of Joseph Smith. What is it to your mind where you're like, these one or two things are why I know that the LDS faith is not the reinstituted, you know, the restored faith?
SPEAKER_00:God. I mean, right off the bat, that's the biggest thing for me. Yeah. Christianity is such a monotheistic religion. And of course, you can debate the ticky-tacks and you know, Mormonism, you know, is a polytheism, is it monotheism, is it henotheism? All these different concepts, and you know, people will argue for a variety of different things, but at the end of the day, teaching the progression to become God, teaching that hey, everyone else is going to become God. You know, one day God was as God once was, man is, as you know, God is man may become. Um, and then there's of course the King Fall It sermon. Um, and then I look at passages like Isaiah 40 through 10, like before me no God was formed, neither shall there be after me. Right. You look at what is it, Deuteronomy 6, 4, uh, like hero Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord. I mean, Psalms talks about from everlasting to everlasting, you are God. I just feel like it's so core to the Christian faith, and it's so obvious in the scriptures. I mean, God is one, there's only one God, and He's like the mightiest. You know what I mean? Yeah, He's not created, He's not a creature, he's the creator. And so that for me is the biggest thing. I, you know, I I can't believe in having my own planet, I can't believe in becoming a God of my own world, different things like this, and you can argue on whether that's doctrinal or not, but at the end of the day, it's what's taught by the prophets and the apostles. And so I just look at the Bible and I'm like, yeah, there's there's just no way. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Wow. So you were at, as we as we pointed out, you were at the event. Um, you were excited to be there. And then when Charlie Kirk began talking when he was asked about Mormonism, obviously your ears perked up, uh, which our audience now will understand why. Um, you ready to continue a little bit in this video? Yeah, absolutely. Great.
SPEAKER_03:One of those guys that hates non-Mormons or Mormons. What evidence do you have for that claim?
SPEAKER_02:So the more than those 1500s based off. Don't use that Trinity.
SPEAKER_01:No, I'm gonna pause it there. A couple things. One, I want you to tell us more about what you remember in this moment, but can I just point out what a genuine loss and how what a tragedy his assassination was? What's going on right here is a man, whether you agree with him or not, you might think he's the worst person in the world, but he's sitting there talking with people. Yeah, there's a dialogue back and forth, and the exchange of ideas, if that can't happen on our college campuses, what are they even there for?
SPEAKER_00:100%, yeah. Yeah, I mean, he said it best like when dialogue ends, violence ensues, or something of that nature. But it's the fact that he's not there being like you suck, you suck, um, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, whatever else. He's literally just conversing with people. If they bring up a subject, he's gonna talk about it no matter what. I mean, it's an open mic. How much more of a free speech can you exercise?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Noah, when you were there, did you was there any part of you that was considering asking a question or going to the mic? Or is that not, is that not you?
SPEAKER_00:Oh, a hundred percent. I I got there like 20, I started at noon. I got there, I left class early. I got there at like 1140, and the line to ask questions was probably 200 people long. And I was like, I was like, oh my gosh, like A, I don't think I'd even get to the front of the line. And if I did, it'd be like five hours from now. So I just decided just to sit and listen. But I would have liked to ask him a question. I mean, it would have been super cool. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01:So so far, you can, you know, the audio, obviously, it's it's tough at this stage. Um, but he was asked a question about actually maybe Noah, do you recall? Do you because it was hard to hear? Yeah. Do you remember what the question was or what's going on here?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it is hard to hear. It was obviously super crowded. Um the question was basically the kid, I think it might have been more of a a challenge than a question. I think what the kid posed was that the historicity of the LDS faith was more valid than that of Protestantism. Oh wow. Um, and then the kid there, the captions kind of cut out because it does get really muffled and distorted. But I think at just before we paused, he starts bringing up the reforms, and then he talked about um why L the kid talks about why LDS people aren't Christian because of the infallibility of scripture, the open canon, and then the doctrine of the Godhead and the differences there. Um, so at that point, that's what the kid set up. And then obviously their conversation got there.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, so this is this is obviously a Mormon student who is challenging Charlie Kirk, okay, about Mormonism.
SPEAKER_00:I think I think the kid was actually a convert to Mormonism, too.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, intro. Okay, wow.
SPEAKER_00:I don't know if I picked that up.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, interesting. Um, but not someone you knew.
SPEAKER_00:No, I didn't, but there were other people online who I did know, but not him. Interesting.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. So don't you think?
SPEAKER_03:Okay, where's the archaeological evidence for the Nephites? There's a lot of people.
SPEAKER_05:Oh, there's a lot of people.
SPEAKER_01:So you hear there, um, Charlie Kirk is, you know, he's where's the archaeological evidence for the Nephites?
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And then there was something that was said, and he asks them again, where's the archaeological evidence for the Nephites? So, you know, how this all started, right? Is a lot of Mormons and LDS in the comments saying, you know, that it was a lie that Charlie Kirk was challenging the faith. You hear here with your own ears, he was. Um, and you know, he's obviously being very kind, uh, very respectful, uh, which of course you wouldn't expect anything different. Um was it your sense? Noah, I I'm curious. That audience there, what if you had to throw out a number, what percentage of them are LDS? Just kind of guessing.
SPEAKER_00:Uh 85. I don't know. I mean very highly. Like I was surrounded, and you can actually hear me kind of in the video. Um, the kid goes, Oh, there's a lot of evidence, and I go, No, there's not. And so you can kind of pick it up, but everyone around me, I swear I was surrounded. But I would say, I don't know, it's probably over 80 to 85 percent, just one big guess.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, interesting. So we'll continue here.
SPEAKER_02:Thanks giving me specifically since we're gonna stuff explain. We have a lot of archaeological. I mean, no, it's mostly so but without the word sound, where's the evidence?
SPEAKER_03:Where where are the nephites? There's no right. Yeah, where's the where's the evidence for the lemonites?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I would say So Noah, talk us through that.
SPEAKER_01:What what do you hear there? What's going on?
SPEAKER_00:Well, initially, I think that the goalposts moved. I think the kid initially rebuttals Charlie and says, hey, there's a lot of evidence for the Nephites, and then he goes, Okay, I'll admit there's not a lot of evidence. And so then Charlie moves on to the next people group in the Book of Mormon, which is the Lamanites. Um, and the kid's kind of, you know, obviously Charlie's a very comfortable public speaker, but he's kind of just like, hey, without the word salad, like just get to the point.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, the the because he's saying, you know, we've done a lot of archaeological, he keeps saying stuff, which is pretty kind of funny. Um there's there's archaeological stuff that he referred to, this student referred to a couple times. And then, you know, Charlie, in like you said, in the way he does so well, he kind of brings it back to it. Yeah, but where's the evidence? Like, show point to something, show me something. Um then they so yes, but then he asks about the Lamanites.
SPEAKER_03:You said evidence. You said that you think that LBS has more evidence than Ponismatism. I just named two critical parts of this when you're wrong, and there's no evidence for either. Where are the golden tablets?
SPEAKER_05:Okay.
SPEAKER_03:Um, how many of the people who originally followed Joseph Smith continue to follow him throughout the elevents, all the golden tablets?
SPEAKER_00:In my mind, in this conversation, I'm thinking, okay, if these convers if these questions were asked to me, what would my response be? Um other than just kind of the excitement of the crowd, like I can almost feel excited watching it, or maybe I'm just anxious. Um but I just kind of what a blessing, what a cool opportunity to be there. But then thinking about the archaeological evidence, like the prophets and apostles claimed that it was a north, it was in North America, it was not Central or Southern America. That's a new narrative. And then on top of that, that it was near Palmyra and uh in New York. And so, and they've done digs on where the LDS prophets and apostles, archaeological digs and scans for where the Hilcomorra was thought to have been. And it's a clean site. I mean, absolutely clean, you know. Archaeologists at BYU will admit that and everything. So now they've had to go, oh, there's nothing, there's no evidence. Now we got to switch to somewhere where there is just so little, and just claim that that lack of evidence is, you know.
SPEAKER_03:Hold on, five and stop following it.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, so that got a big applause from the crowd, Noah. What was uh what was said there.
SPEAKER_00:Well, you can tell just how much per how dense the percentage was of people of the LDS faith there by the reaction to it. Um I think what they were saying there is they were talking about the 11 witnesses to the Book of Mormon, and Charlie was saying how five left the faith, and then the other kid was coming back and saying, well, they never recounted any of their testimonies. Um so I think that's the dialogue that they were having there.
SPEAKER_01:What are they what are they chanting there? If you if it's is it are they saying something bad?
SPEAKER_00:They're saying F you, Charlie. So I didn't put I didn't put it in the captions because it was like I appreciate that. Uh-uh. No, it was not good. I mean, LDS or not, it was not a pleasant feeling being there. It was not good. Right.
SPEAKER_01:Um, this video is almost here, almost to an inch. I just play it out to the end.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, whatever you think's best. I can't even hear anything. I finished the video, kind of put my phone away. Um, they moved on to the next guest, and then at this point, there's still people yelling. Um, the energy is still really high. It's an exciting atmosphere to be in. I think there was, I think they said they estimated on the day there was a little over 3,000 people. So it was it was like such a cool environment to be a part of. It was very exciting. Um and I'm like even getting my heart rate's going up even thinking about it. Like it was just a crazy, it was a surreal experience. And then the kid comes up and he talks about gang violence. Um, I believe it had to do with the amount. Of people that had been killed by transgender shootings. Um, and then there was a question about mass shootings, and then Charlie responds to the extent of inside or outside of gang violence, and then boom, that was it. The last thing he said. And so at this point, I'm there with I'm there, me personally, like with probably five or six of my teammates. So I got a bunch of my teammates here. Um, I got my girlfriend was with me as well. She was right below me. Um, and then at this point, we hear the gun go off and it was really loud. And at first I thought it was, you know, those kind of confetti cannons people can shoot off. Yep. I was like, it my first thought, my first thought was it's a gun. And then I was like, no, like that's not, that doesn't happen. And then I kind of turned. It was I was standing, so Charlie was down here, and obviously I was on the northeast kind of diagonal from him, maybe 40 yards away. Um, and the shot came from behind me to the left, and it was a I like recall it clear as day. And so immediately I heard the sound go and I turned my head back and I kind of thought, oh, it's some sort of prank. And as I come back, my head looks back, then I obviously see his body goes limp. I mean, without getting too graphic. Yeah. It time was really weirdly dilated here. It was like it slowed down. Uh I mean, he I saw him limp over, and then obviously his neck and everything. And as soon as I saw his neck, I was just like, like everything set in, and it virality just hit me like a ton of bricks. And so then everyone hits the ground and we all drop on the ground. Uh-huh. And then the next probably 10 seconds were like the most terrifying 10 seconds of my life. Because at this point, one shot had gone off and they got him. And all I was thinking is I was waiting for the next shot to go. And then I was waiting for a spray. And so every second that passed by, I was just like, Oh, like, thank God. Like, that's one more second, like one more second, one more second. And everyone was yelling, get down. And at this point, we're in like fetal positions. We got like our backpacks on top of us. And then at this point, I'm like, we got to get out of here. And so we get up, we start running. And then the scary part is we're in an outdoor area. The only exit outdoors still was where he was sitting. So we couldn't exit outdoors. We had to go back into the school building at this point. Oh, I understand. And so we're funneling through these doors, hundreds of people, and there was a there was a water feature that the school had. People were falling into the water, people are getting shoved, like just pandemonium.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And so all I can think of when we're running through the doors is someone's going to be at the end of this hallway with a gun, waiting for us. I mean, it was it was horrific. Like it was disgusting. I mean, it was horrible. And so at this point in time, running through the school, trying to get to my car. I mean, this is one of those experiences where it's like, oh my gosh, I wish I could go back 30 minutes of my life and make the decision not to come here today. Like, I thought I was gonna die 100%. Like I was like, someone's gonna wait there. And then I got through one hallway and I was like, okay. And then I got through another hallway. And then at this point, there's people that are just in classrooms and leaving their classes, but they don't know that a shooting happened. They're just going to the next class, they're walking to get lunch with their friends. And so running down the hallway, me and everyone around me starts yelling, like, get out, get in the classroom, like leave the school. And people kind of aren't taking us seriously. Like I had multiple people where I was yelling, like, somebody just got shot, and they kind of just like, what? Like they kind of laugh it off. Sure. And I understand. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:You know. And then and then I get outside and I'm like, okay, that's I'm I'm a little bit safer now. And then I'm like, I'm like, I'm a little bit safer now. And then I'm running I'm running through the parking lot. And just every step further away I got was like one step closer to safety. And then while this is happening, I'm trying to call my dad, I'm trying to call my family. And I'm like, the first thing I texted them in the family group messages, I said, I'm safe. And then everyone was like, like, what? Like, okay. And I was like, someone just got shot. And then, of course, from that point, it was like, oh shoot, like, what? Yeah. Um, and then at that point, I got in my car um with a teammate of mine and then my girlfriend. And I was like, my teammate lost his shoe. I was like, we're not going back to get it. I was like, get in my car. I was like, we're going straight to my house. And so I called my mom and I was like, people are coming over. Like, we need it's like a bunker. We need to sit down and be safe.
SPEAKER_01:Noah, just you telling the story. You talked about your heart rate. My heart's going right now. I mean, I feel it. I just, I've got the chills. I can't, I can't imagine what that was like. Um, and thanks be to God that nobody else was hurt. Um and that it wasn't a mass shooting.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um wow.
SPEAKER_00:Because it easily could have been. Oh, absolutely. We were funneled into this lower bowl. I mean, it was scary.
SPEAKER_01:So no, so kind of backing up again. Okay. The shot goes off. You hear it. You said you thought it was a gun. You could, at least at first, that for your first inclination was that it was a gun, but then you thought, no, maybe it's just got to be a cannon or you know, one of those denial. Yeah. Denial. Yeah, sure. Because your brain's processing in a mile a minute. It sounds like at some point, oh, then you saw because that's what's now that's what I wanted to touch on. It's very interesting. When you look at the video, this is what video tends to do. You look further away in the video because the video Yes, the camera. Yeah. So you were actually close enough to where you saw the blood, you saw Charlie go down.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So the area that we're in is kind of an amphitheater. I think there was five or six rows, and we must have been, we were on the third or fourth. So we were pretty. I mean, I said three yards. We were really close. I mean, you could throw a rock, and I mean, it was really close. Um, like he was throwing hats out at the start, and the hats were reaching the row that we're on. You can't throw a hat that far. No, no. Okay. And so yeah, I turn around because I'm like, oh, back to the discussion. So I kind of turn my head, and then yeah, I just see his blood go everywhere, and I'm like, oh my gosh. It's like something you'd see in like a like a vampire movie where it's just like special effects. I mean, it was yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I I saw it, I saw it. Um, because I don't know if you recall, you were in the midst of it, but I happen to see video right away on Twitter. Um, as I'm sure you know, social media these days and stuff goes up immediately. And it was I'll just say it was the full video. It was all of it. You saw all of it. And you can't unsee that. Um, and I'll I'll be honest with you, Noah. Um, there's a lot of people who are very, you know, we shouldn't show that, that should be taken down. I disagree. I think seeing it in reality, it's what helps it recall that it's real, right? It's it's how we you have to confront the reality of these things to see sometimes how truly horrific it is. Um, because if you wash that stuff away, if you hide the truth, then it's easy to you know fold things up, you know, into the fog of war. And it's like, oh yeah, that was so sad, someone died. It's like, no, no, no. This is so much more than that. Um okay. Uh how you how you feeling, Noah?
SPEAKER_00:Good. I mean, happy to keep discussing, obviously. But like you said, I mean, it's an image that will never be uningrained into my memory. I mean, still clear as day, you know, unfortunately. And I actually feel sorry for you that you saw it. I mean, everyone who did see it that wasn't there, I was like, oh, like I'm sorry that you had to see that. Because I understand, like, it's it's it's it's not natural. You should nobody should ever see someone have that happen to them.
SPEAKER_01:Right. Right. It should never happen. Um you mentioned your girlfriend. She was there. Um, it was her, was she freaking out? Is she still a student there, also?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. We we both run there. We both go to school there. Um, interestingly enough, when we first walked in there at the start of the day, the first thing she said to me was, someone's gonna get shot. And I was like, What? And she was like, she was like, no, look at this. Like, there's thousands of people. There was it was there was no security at all. Walk in with backpacks, walk in, no security checkpoints whatsoever. You had to reserve tickets online, no ticket scanning whatsoever. Um no police officers. I saw, I myself, excluding his kind of entourage of people, saw one police officer. I know it was said that there was five or six on duty that day, which leaves one police officer per 500 people without scanning or checking any bags. If you look at the roof levels of UVU, I mean, looking in hindsight, like horrible. Like he was in this lower bowl, roof levels. I mean, just totally unprotected. And so I was like, I was like, no, like that stuff doesn't happen, like we're fine. Um, and then of course, the worst thing that can happen does happen, and immediately hit the ground, and she was just like, We're all gonna die. And I was like, I mean, it was a tough, tough moment. And then my friends around me, same thing, were like, we're gonna die, like we're gonna get killed. Everyone's like sobbing um because you're waiting for those shots. And then obviously we get out and we start running. And then I feel like because I was the person who drove people home, I was like the getaway guy and to my house for the next 24 hours. I like wasn't even like it, it hadn't sent in, set in for me because I was kind of in this protector mindset where my my adrenaline, like that is definitely the highest my adrenaline's ever been. I mean, my body was full systems, and so I was thinking about other people at the time. And then the next day was when it really hit for me. I had slept, I had woken up, and I had to actually confront it now. And I was like, oh my gosh. And so at that point, the adrenaline wore off. And that's when it got that was when it was really hard for me.
unknown:Wow.
SPEAKER_01:Do you know any of your anyone you know, Noah, um, or even for yourself, was it hard to go back to school? Like how how long was it before you went back to classes? Talk to us about the aftermath uh for for you and your family.
SPEAKER_00:I can't remember what day of the week it was on. Um and I can't remember how many days we got off school, but I didn't go to school for 10 days, maybe. Um, I think let's say it was on a Wednesday. I think Thursday and Friday were canceled. And then I think the next I don't think we were expected to return until the next Wednesday. Um, but the school had sent out a couple emails saying teachers are required to work with you. Um, excuse me, if you need extensions, you can do it. And I was just like, I do not want to go back there. Like, I don't feel safe. Right. And the worst part about it is this has now jeopardized the way I feel about any public setting. And it's the worst when you go somewhere where you should be safe and then you're not. And so I didn't go to school until maybe two Mondays after that. And I was very scared, I was very hesitant. I was like, someone can have like a gun in their bag, like I don't know. Um, but then even after that, you know, even going to church the first Sunday after that, as horrible as it sounds, like I didn't feel safe whatsoever. I I didn't feel safe at home with my parents. Wow. Um, because I room with a couple guys down by school, but I stayed at my parents for like two weeks, and I was just like, I felt very unsafe. And of course I was safe, but public settings now, uh, I don't love them.
SPEAKER_01:Wow. It's it's it's PTSD. Uh, you know, um, yeah, and that that can take, who knows? I mean, that can take years. I might that might be in the back of your mind for the rest of your life. Um wow. This is this is uh this is heavy, um, Noah. And and again, I want to thank you for for doing this, for talking about this, for going here with us. Um, I I've got no doubt that this is gonna be an impactful um conversation for people to hear. Um where you sit right now, Noah, what what's what do you want people to know? What do you want people to take away from your story, from being there, from from any of this? What what's kind of what's on your mind?
SPEAKER_00:Oh, it's a good question. I gotta think about it. Um take your time. Take your time. Yeah, sorry, I apologize.
SPEAKER_01:No, it's okay.
SPEAKER_00:I guess my story as a whole, I think the ultimatum is that if you're gonna follow Jesus, you're gonna sacrifice other things in your life. And that's really hard. But looking at my family and then myself as an individual, we sacrificed our extended family, we sacrificed our connections, friends, neighbors, ward community. Um, we ended up moving across the country because it just was a horrible, it was a horrible environment to be in after leaving. Just the unfortunate repercussions of that.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And then looking at my experience with BYU, um, having had my record legally removed, um, having been having been honest through the entire application process, having been open about my faith, where my family was, um, all these different things, doing it right. You know, I didn't cut corners, I didn't AI my application essays, like I did it all. Yeah. Um, and then having trained with the team and being on scholarship at the national championship program, close to my family, everything else. I'm questioned and told after four months that the only way to keep my scholarship is if I get baptized into the church. And A, that's not why they have people get baptized. It's disingenuous. And B, it's disingenuous to my own faith. You know, like what's your 30 pieces of silver in life? Mine was not a scholarship for a couple grand a year down in Provo. You know what I mean? Yeah. And for me, my faith was worth way more than that. And it was worth way more than the approval of Trevor, the academic advisor who told me to get baptized, or the Dean of Admissions at BYU, or the different coaches there, the athletic director. Like, and so I had to sacrifice that. And so, but at the end of the day, it's worth it, you know, and I would do it again. I wouldn't change anything I did because at the end of the day, following Jesus, I mean, he talks about it. It's hard. You lose things, you sacrifice things, you want to sacrifice relationships. But one verse that sticks out to me is what does it profit a man to gain the world but lose his soul? And it's like, what's you know, what's your 30 pieces? So I guess that's what I would say.
SPEAKER_01:Powerful, Noah. Thank you, man. God bless you. Look at that. You made it to the end. What a story. Thank you, Noah, for joining Cloud of Witnesses to tell us your story. Absolutely amazing. Please let us know down in the comments your thoughts. Share with Noah your impression of his journey, of his story. Please, any of this surprise you? We were told so often that we were kind of making it up that Charlie Kirk was questioning the validity of Mormonism, and you saw in this very video the proof for yourself that he was calling into question the very historicity of the LDS faith. Let us know what you think. Give this video a like if you did. Please subscribe. And remember, if you want to see the uncut, unedited version of this entire conversation. We talked for a good hour and a half. Go over to our Patreon. It's the best way to support Cloud of Witnesses and to keep this content coming to you as often as possible. We wish you the best. God bless you. Let us know down in the comments what you liked, and let us know, of course, what we got wrong. God bless you. We'll see you on the next one. Bye bye.