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Cloud of Witnesses Radio
Are The Churches of Christ the Church of Christ? Beyond Proof-Texts: A Man's Leaving Restorationism
A quiet shift begins when a lifelong member of the Churches of Christ realizes that his faith life, rich in study and careful exegesis, struggles to move from mind to heart. Brandon Marlow's story traces the Restoration Movement’s ideals—erase denominational lines, do Bible things in Bible ways, and speak where Scripture speaks. Those guiding slogans shaped a culture suspicious of creeds, titles, instruments, and anything not “authorized.” The result formed disciplined habits, robust Bible study, and close-knit congregations. Yet the same strengths could narrow imagination and flatten mystery. A low view of the Holy Spirit’s personal activity and an intellectual approach to faith left little language for awe, beauty, or sacrament. Brandon describes how good intentions produced a protective fence, but often fenced out wonder.
His turning came when he stepped into preaching during a pastoral vacancy. Wanting holiness to match responsibility, he searched for time-tested disciplines: daily prayers, fasting rhythms, and a pattern of worship that stretches the soul. He found them in Orthodoxy. Prayer books spoke soberly about judgment and mercy, teaching him to remember ultimate things every day. Memorizing whole psalms, not just proof texts, reoriented his inner life. Icons startled him. Venerating the Ascension icon, his heart rose in praise, not just his mind in assent. He realized devotion is learned by doing—beauty tutors love, and ritual teaches reverence. Where logic said “believe,” the Church taught him to behold, adore, and belong.
Scripture did not shrink; it deepened. Listening to Orthodox homilies, he felt less “interpretation” and more unveiling. Texts clicked into place as part of a living Tradition, the same bloodstream that nourished the Fathers he had once mined for citations. C.S. Lewis had cracked the door years earlier, proving that Christian wisdom could move the affections without verse labels in every line. Meeting the Fathers as pastors—Ignatius, Polycarp, and more—showed him a church that loved, bled, and prayed as one body. Their worlds made sense of bones cherished as gold, not as superstition, but as love made tangible in the saints who fed, blessed, and shepherded their flock.
The Eucharist became the center of gravity. In his upbringing, communion was precious yet rushed, migrating from homemade bread to sealed cups as the table drifted to the side. Reverence thinned as routine took hold. In Orthodoxy, he discovered preparation before, prayer during, and gratitude after. The chalice, spoon, and altar were holy because the Lord gives himself there—Body and Blood, Presence not symbol. Approaching the chalice for the first time felt like approaching fire. He stepped forward in obedience and love, realizing this is why Christ died: communion. From there, everything else reframed—ascetic practices, feasts and fasts, the calendar that walks believers through the life of Christ, and the solidarity of Holy Week that exhausts, burns, and resurrects a community together.
From “people of the book” to people of the Book and the Table, he discovered that truth is not only argued; it is adored, sung, tasted, and shared. The heart learns by worship as much as the mind learns by words, and both find their home when Scripture meets Sacrament in the life of the Church.
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Hi, welcome to Cloud of Witnesses. Jeremy Jeremiah here. We got a really special uh interview we're doing today. We're talking with Brandon Marlowe. Brandon, welcome to the podcast.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you.
SPEAKER_00:You you came out of the Church of Christ, and we're gonna tell your story today of how you found holy orthodoxy.
SPEAKER_01:Uh I am a lifelong member, had been a lifelong member of the Churches of Christ. Uh my mother was a uh uh she she began going to church. A neighbor of hers took her to church because I think her family wasn't really churchgoers, and uh took some of my mom's family to church. And so she uh that's really what she knew, and that's what she brought us up in along with my father. Uh and uh so it's really what I had known my whole life. Uh I don't know how much people know about the churches of Christ, but at least when I was younger, it was pretty uncommon for you to mix with uh denominations and other places like that. You sort of stuck to your uh you stuck in your lane and you just went to the churches of Christ. You listened to Church of Christ uh teachings and things like that. Um but so I didn't really know much about much of the outside world at all uh growing up. So anyway, yeah, I have a pretty lifelong member.
SPEAKER_00:So, Brandon, I do think it would be helpful for our audience because I can tell you myself, um, even as you and I were talking before we started recording, um, I mentioned an organization that I was approached by back when I was in college, and you made a distinction. You said that's actually a kind of a splinter group. So it's my guess that there's many in our audience that probably aren't that familiar with the churches of Christ. You might have given us kind of a background and and a bit of the history related to that denomination.
SPEAKER_01:Sure. Uh the Churches of Christ uh began in the early 1900s. I'll be sorry. They began in the early uh 19th century. Uh Alexander Campbell and Barton Stone were known as the uh the two leaders of that group. They came out of a mix of, they were doing their own thing, and they kind of came together uh to do what was known as the restoration movement. Uh the restoration movement uh sought to look beyond denominational lines or to really erase the idea of denominationalism. Um, and they blamed creeds and they blamed statements of faith, and they blamed these sorts of things to as uh as causers of division. Um and so they uh, you know, we don't actually talk a lot about Alexander Campbell and Barton Stone in the Churches of Christ. You know, I think that uh people know that they were the uh the the people that were there in the beginning, but I think most people in the churches of Christ they don't talk about them like day-to-day. It's just not something that they think about at all. Uh, but the the principles were uh to speak where the Bible speaks, to be silent where the Bible is silent. Uh the principles were to uh do Bible things in Bible ways. Um and then there were other slogans which I think were kind of shared among other groups, but uh we don't we don't mean to be the only Christians, but we seek to be Christians only, was the uh was the idea. And so uh there was a lot of suspicion when you when a church would have a a term, and the term uh the term would be something that was describing something that the Bible didn't describe. So for instance, a reverend. Well, what is a reverend and what are the qualifications of a reverend? Because we know what an elder is and what a deacon is. Uh, we know these are biblical terms, and we know that they have qualifications in the Bible. So all of these terms were uh were seen as um not authoritative terms. Uh so there's there's this big idea in the churches of Christ about authority. Uh, where does your authority come from? And authority uh either has to be directly told in the in the Bible or it has to be necessarily inferred or demonstrated in a in a narrative. Um, and so I don't know, this is just a small thing, but it's one of those little things that if you understand this about the churches of Christ, then you'll understand a lot of stuff, is that they don't do bake sales, they don't do fundraisers, they don't do things like this because they have they say that uh Christians have the authority to collect money willingly, given uh in a church setting, but they don't have the authority to sell things and make money in other ways. And so that's that's if you understand that, then you understand quite a bit about like the mind of a Church of Christ person.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, Brandon, so much of what you just said to me is is fascinating. One of the big ones that popped out at me right off the bat is, you know, you mentioned how they were trying to erase the divisions, right? The creeds, the the confessional statements, these were, you know, they saw them as drawing the lines and they wanted to erase the lines. I feel like that is exactly what's happening in a large segment segment of Protestant evangelicalism, non-denominationalism today. This the same types of things you could find, you probably spend 10 minutes, you could find six, seven churches, you know, across the country that that's kind of their motto. You know, that's that's that's what they believe they're doing. And I think that it does go to show that there's nothing new under the sun.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, they were definitely the first to use the term, as far as I know, the first to use the term non-denominational.
SPEAKER_00:Really?
SPEAKER_01:And and they didn't mean the same thing as is meant today. In fact, I think that I didn't hear the term non-denominational outside of a Church of Christ setting for a long time. And so when people were saying I go to a non-denominational church, I assumed they were talking about something like what I was going to because I didn't know I didn't know the difference there. Uh, but they've they were using that term for a really long time. Uh, and what they meant by that was what are the essentials? What can we really boil down the the very basics? You know, what does a primitive first century Christianity look like? And can we return to that? Um, and that was that was the the mission and the goal. It was uh plainly put out there, trying to do that. Uh there were, I think there were lots of theological problems that even uh even like members today that if they know the history would agree, yeah, that was a bad time. Uh there was uh in the beginning uh a really low idea, a really low vision of who the Holy Spirit is, uh, where the Holy Spirit was seen um more as being uh inside the scripture itself, meaning you you received the Holy Spirit, of course, through baptism, which was an um is an important thing in in uh in uh the churches of Christ, but at the same time, you know and learn about God through the scripture. And since that's true in the Holy and the Holy Spirit's the one who teaches about God, then there was almost an equivalence there. If you're if you're reading the scripture, you're listening to the Holy Spirit, and nothing else is listening to the Holy Spirit. Right. Uh, and so uh that was mostly reformed within the churches uh in the 1950s and sixties or so. Uh, but eventually, um uh it it I think it's it was it's pretty normalized now to just sort of think of the Holy Spirit as as living an active force uh in the church, uh, if but probably much less personalized than I I understand the Holy Spirit to be now as an Orthodox Christian. Sure.
SPEAKER_00:Well, you know, given the history that you're presenting and this idea of the essentials, right? And and where scripture speaks, you know, that's where you can rely and take action, but where scripture is silent, you know, that you I guess just avoid it completely, or you certainly can't take a stance on it. You can see how they would come out potentially with a a low view, if you will, um, of the Holy Spirit. Um, and it's you know, we'll get into this later, of course, but it's it's with the full understanding and the teaching of the church that you begin to see really how the spirit has moved in the hearts and minds of people, you know, obviously throughout time, but certainly over the course of the life of the church. Um, and it's it kind of breaks my heart, you know, to hear you say that. Um and and at the same time, Brandon, again, I see so much of that in Protestantism in general. Um, not on purpose, of course. And I don't think anyone even would even necessarily admit that, so to speak. Uh, but it becomes a natural part of the practice that the Holy Spirit just kind of gets relegated um to the sidelines, um, if unless you're charismatic, right? Unless you're from some sort of Pentecostal charismatic persuasion, then of course the spirit is, you know, front and center. Um, but of course, that has its own issues. Right. Brandon, you you you know came um out of the churches of Christ. I it's I would imagine, and and let me know, it sounds like you probably still have friends and family um that that are Church of Churches of Christ. Can you talk to us about, because I I'm hearing, I'm sure, a lot of very well-intentioned people who wanted to do the will of God, seeking Christ. Can you talk to us about some of the good things, some of the positive things that that you saw and experienced while being a member?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I could speak about that for a while. Uh, I think that there were many, many positive things. When I began becoming much more uh serious about faith and following Jesus, uh I looked around at other denominations and things like that to see, hey, is anyone doing this better? I don't know, I was I was on a bit of a uh a mission to seek out um truth. And I came just to sort of stay within the churches of Christ during that time in my early 20s. And the reason was is because when it was comfortable and familiar, but also uh when you do stay that close to the scripture, you're not likely to go into certain certain errors, right? Um and for instance, it was not very likely that uh people in the church of Christ would get swept up in some evangelical fashion, fashionable trend, or anything like that. Uh, it was not likely for the churches of Christ to get caught up in uh different theories about pre-tribulation, post-tribulation, and all that, because these are uh these are concepts and ideas that that aren't expressly talked about. And so they they seem to be derived from scripture, but they're not necessarily inferred. So we just sort of didn't talk about that uh so much. And uh, you know, it was it was not likely that you would have uh it was not likely that you'd have uh emotional sort of outbursts or uh emotionally driven theology or meetings and and or anything like that. There was no expectation that I would have some religious conversion experience. Uh or uh it wasn't anything like that at all. There weren't altar calls or um or manufactured emotional things. So there were all of those things. Uh I think that because uh it's such a small group and it is an awkward thing, and everyone in the group knows it's an awkward thing to be a member. The uh the families are actually very close, very familial. You get to know people pretty well. Uh people really enjoy their potlucks and they really enjoy their time socializing. Um it, you know, it is in a lot of ways like an Orthodox church, well, people will stay after and talk and talk uh with each other for a long time. Um, not structured, like like in coffee hours, a little more structured, I think, but just a lot of people don't leave. They don't run out the door afterward, they they stand around and they talk. Um and so all of those things are really positive. I think that uh the the amount of scripture that I was expected to learn as a child uh would be difficult for most people to understand because memorization of scripture, at least verses of scripture, and let's let's just admit it, specific scriptures that we found to be very important, uh, was was really important. But also understanding uh understanding the Old Testament, understanding the history of the um the the nation of Israel, understanding uh the Babylonian captivity and and all of that was important uh because this is all uh this is all important understanding of of who a Christian is. You have to understand how where it all comes from. So I think that that was very positive. And uh, and I knew that as long as I could show in the scripture where something was coming from, an idea was coming from, it wasn't going to be completely rejected um outright. Uh it was just going to, okay, you see that. I see, okay. It doesn't go against some of the things that we hold to be very true, um, or anything like that. And so, okay, you're allowed to think like that. And that's really kind of how I thought Christianity was, is there's a there's a uh a range of things you're allowed to think, and as long as you foot fall within that range, and it might be taking something more uh more literal or more figurative or more symbolic or or something like that. Uh, but as long as you could show, well, I believe it because of this particular verse, uh, you were allowed to be, you were, you weren't rejected as someone who was coming up with new ideas or anything like that.
SPEAKER_00:I'm hearing, you know, almost you're describing what I've heard in other circles is they'll call themselves the people of the book.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Right. And and um I can see how, like you were pointing out, there's some virtue to that. You know, you can see the the why people would think, hey, this is a good thing. We know it's the word of God, and you know, so we're just gonna stick to this. And then yet I also what I was hearing is, and I want to ask you, was it I I'm hearing a lot of, it sounds like it's a lot of ideas in terms of the intellectualism, because you have to interpret scripture, right? You have to have, I would imagine, a solid exegesis and and a good hermeneutic, right? Are these the types of things that were talked about commonly uh in these circles? Or or what were, you know, is it fair to say that they it was an intellectual faith, or or am I not seeing that?
SPEAKER_01:I think you're I think you're understanding that pretty well. We talked about hermeneutics all the time, exegesis all the time. Uh when we we would always have regular Bible study, and uh every church of Christ that I belonged to was very serious about hermeneutics, exegesis, and re- avoiding eisegesis, things like that. Uh so absolutely you're right about that. Um, and I think that that is one of the things that uh when we we can get into some of the differences in orthodoxy if you want, because one of the differences that I noticed in orthodoxy was not just aligning myself mentally with what the Bible says is true, which is as long as you're doing that, as long as you can say, I believe this because the Bible says this, and you're not going outside those bounds, then you're you're an acceptable member of the church. And uh, and so and if you're saying things outside of that, then you're not. And so, and you need to be corrected. But the the issue was that you're also reading about people in the scripture who love these works of gods, who praise these works works of gods, uh work sorry, who praise these works of God, who are in awe and inspired by these works of God. And I'm not, I don't think we ever really had that sort of attitude toward the works of God. Uh, I remember being in a monastery when I was uh a seeker and when I was an inquirer. And I had gotten to the point at that time when I was comfortable kissing an icon, I was comfortable venerating an icon. And uh, but I didn't have I didn't understand why I was comfortable with it. I just had gotten to that point. And I was in a monastery, it was the leave-taking apasca, and uh at the end of that, uh we had a vigil for the ascension. And so I go into the church and I see the icon of the ascension and I go to venerate it, and my heart lifted up, and I loved the ascension for the first time. I praised the ascension for the first time. I was in awe of the ascension, and I realized that this icon is communicating to my heart, not just to my, not just to my eyes, not just to my mind, but it's communicating to my heart. This is something praiseworthy and lovely that you should be uh, and it felt right to praise God and praise the ascension. Uh, and that was really nothing that was ever uh, you know, how do you teach that logically? How do you teach someone, okay, read this and then love it? It's hard. It's it's almost impossible. And so there's no expectation that you will do that.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, Brandon, excellent explanation and an excellent answer to my question because it really paints that picture of as Protestants, and certainly it sounds like Church of Churches of Christ fit into that mold, is that it becomes this analysis of the book, of the text. And I know of myself, just for your knowledge, Brandon, I'm a former um, I was grew up kind of non-denominational, you know, evangelical, but I eventually became very reformed Presbyterian Calvinist. And I I hear a lot of overlap, uh, because certainly in Calvinist circles, at least the circles I was involved in, a lot of talk about hermeneutics and exegesis, and it was all about our proof texts and in understanding those from the Greek, et cetera. You know, this all very important. And I know for myself at the time, I think it was one reason it was so appealing to me as a young man, is because it was so intellectual. Um, it was almost an opportunity for me to uh, you know, let my let my brain run a little bit, you know. Um but you brought up the the icon of the transfiguration and the feast of the transfiguration. The ascension. Thank you. The ascension. And I want to say that. To me, it is one of the most beautiful one. It's my one of my favorite icons. And it's one of the most beautiful things I remember of discovering in orthodoxy because the ascension almost doesn't get, I feel like it's just almost overlooked. It's something that just happens. It just happens.
SPEAKER_01:We believe it happens because it's it's told us that it happens. And so we're good Christians because we believe it happened. Yeah. But what does it mean? Like, why is it recorded? What does it mean for me or for my salvation? I don't have any idea.
SPEAKER_00:Right. Exactly. And 100%, Brandon. And and you know, the beauty of you know Christ showing his, you know, a glimpse, right, of this uncreated, uh, of his energies, of the light, of the the his, you know, I don't want to say his essence. We don't need to get into the energies distinction here. Um, but the idea of his uh apostles who were his disciples who were there, and what did they want to do immediately? They wanted to create tabernacles, right? Right. And they they weren't um you know what, Brandon? I just realized I I keep mixing this up with the transfiguration.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, it's funny, is uh I it's as you're talking about the transfiguration, I'm thinking about oh yeah, and how cool it looks when Peter is like completely undone, yeah. He's just destroyed by it. Yes. Uh and but you're right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So okay, because I so I'll I apologize.
SPEAKER_01:How about how about you just talk about like your experience with the transfiguration icon, then sure, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Because it's true. That's that is one of those, uh, because I think it's true of the transfiguration as well, right? That the transfiguration icon, and excuse me, not even just the icon, the event in as a Protestant, we barely thought about it, we barely talked about it. You know, it just wasn't one of the core understandings in Protestantism. Like you said, we believed it, certainly, and it happened, you know, because it's in scripture. Um, but in I feel in orthodoxy, which is, you know, the beautiful entire church calendar, so that you're living through the life, passion, death, resurrection, ascension of Christ, you know, throughout the entire year. Not to mention, of course, you know, the falling asleep of the Theotokos and the death of John the Baptist and all, you know, all these amazing things that we're able to remember um and and revere. Um, but I I do want to say, Brandon, thank you for bringing that up and and kind of the beauty of the ascension and the understanding within Orthodox. And I hope that listeners hearing this, who maybe are Protestant, maybe their uh feeler goes up and they're wanting to know a little bit more. Um, and so I hope they do. I hope they look into it because there's a a richness there. So can we talk a little bit, Brandon, about maybe when did you first hear the word orthodox or orthodoxy? When when did or maybe something was happening prior to that? How did you, if you don't mind telling us a story of how you began leaving uh the COC and finding orthodoxy?
SPEAKER_01:Okay. Uh to tell you where I've heard of Orthodoxy, we'll take little snippets of my life here and there. Uh I went to a church when I was in college that was doing a history of Christianity uh class. And in it, they talked about well, Christians used to do this and they used to do that. They they talked about how Christians used to fast on Wednesdays and Fridays. They used to face east when they prayed. They used to put uh these icons, if you don't know what they are, they're like religious pictures. They used to put these icons on the road between towns to lighten the to light the way of between the towns. And uh and they were very, very serious about these icons. And uh they even talked about how uh they would uh they would fast so much that they would have extra to give to the poor and all of these things. And the idea was, hey, what can we take from this and what can we learn about being a Christian? Uh you know, skip many years later, and I'm looking into Orthodoxy, and I see, well, the Orthodox do this and that and that they face East and they they fast on these days, and they uh they do respect the icons. Um so that was pretty early. I was uh in Mongolia for a couple of years, and when I was there, I knew a uh a Eurytrian American who who was uh uh the first actual Orthodox person I knew, uh at least uh Ethiopian Orthodox. Yeah, yeah. Uh and uh he would tell me all about their stuff because I didn't have any other Christians around me at all. Uh, I really enjoyed talking to him. And so he would go through their 50 days of fasting and 50 days of feasting around Easter, and he would go through uh how they have some clothes that they wore in certain times of the year, and in and in and and in their uh and in their tradition, they have uh their sacred drums, and he would tell me about them and how that's the only instrument that they're allowed to use, and they're not allowed to use these drums outside um uh outside of church. And he he just explained to me uh at that time, uh explained to me the different seas, and I'd never heard this word before, the seas, and how the different seas existed um in unity, but existed in their own regions for most of Christianity. And uh the the Ethiopian sea sort of left at one point and uh and so did some others, and then eventually this is where we get you know Catholic and Orthodox and this and that. And so that was really important for me to hear from him uh these things. Uh skip a couple a few years later, I'm uh I moved to um uh to Ohio, that's where I am right now, and I moved to a region that is uh like a your Eastern European hub here. And so there are these Orthodox churches everywhere, and they've now they I mean they have been fascinating me for a long time, but they're all over the place, and they have these a lot of them have these giant uh uh mural icons on the outside of the church, and they look so interesting, but they also look kind of foreign to me in this and that. Sure. Um eventually I I was in a position where uh the the preacher of the church I was going to left.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:And this was a small congregation, they didn't have any money. They this person actually uh was a retired preacher who was working part-time as a favor um to to this church, and he had to go uh uh due to due to health reasons and some other reasons uh during the COVID time. And they were like, we don't know what to do. We're thinking about doing video sermons on our screen every week. Yeah. I said, uh, I have experience preaching. Every, well, every Church of Christ young boy has opportunities to do things like preach. I took those opportunities growing up. Uh, and so I had I had probably a dozen sermons under my belt in in those 40 years or so. But I said, I think I would be willing, if they're willing, to uh to preach, but I don't think I have enough time to do it every week. So uh I volunteered to preach every other week. Uh and then I actually led songs on the other weeks because leading songs doesn't take uh as much uh as much energy to get ready for.
SPEAKER_02:Sure.
SPEAKER_01:Uh and so I did this for about two and a half years. Uh I was went ahead and they named me as the associate minister so that when people came in, they would go, okay, he's a minister, you know. But uh just so you know, there was no ordination for that. There was no special uh special schooling or anything like that that I needed. Um you were thrown into the role. I was thrown into it, but I I had, you know, I had been praying for something like that to happen, to be honest. I was praying for an opportunity to preach more. I really wanted to. And an opportunity showed up, and I said, I'm gonna, I'm gonna start doing that. Sure. But then it's one thing to be asked to do a sermon and you prepare it and you give it. It's another thing to be asked to be a regular preacher. Uh, and I was feeling extremely uh unworthy of the calling. And so I wanted to, I say, how do I develop uh discipline in my life? How do I develop these things? And I remembered hearing from that old class, well, uh, these Orthodox, they, you know, they they I well, I remember hearing about the I was okay, let me start that over real quick. Uh I started looking into uh what are some spiritual practices? Who out there has prayer practices, disciplines, fasting disciplines? And as I looked into it, I started reading about orthodoxy. Wow. And I realized I made the connection. Oh, they're doing it like I was told Christians used to do it, and that really interested me. Like, oh, they're still doing it like this. So I decided to kind of go all in and get uh an Orthodox prayer book, look up uh fasting regulations. I had no connection to anything as far as doctrine or anything like that. I didn't think I needed I needed that or anything. Sure. I just wanted the the practice, the resources, the resources, yeah. And I fell in love with these prayers. Wow, I really did. Uh you know, the prayer book I had and it's and still use today, uh had daily reminders about the judgment that's coming and our need to be prepared for it. You know, again, the judgment is coming and we need to be prepared for it, is something that I would have agreed to my whole life. But it's not something I would have thought this should be something I should remind myself daily of, you know. Yeah. Uh and so it was like, wow, this is really amazing that that this is uh this is uh a daily reminder. And so I began to really enjoy uh and I uh learning about these prayers, and then I started actually memorizing longer and longer bits of scripture because I'm used to memorizing little snippets of scripture for for quoting purposes, but the Orthodox, they memorize entire psalms, you know. So and and and it takes on a different meaning when you're when you're uh when you're memorizing the psalms like that. And it's not and not everyone memorizes, you can just read it from the book, but naturally over time I was beginning to to read them every day. And I thought this is this is really amazing. And so I was looking for, well, if they're this head, if they're this strong as far as the prayer life and and how serious these prayers are and how incredibly tuned in theologically they are, yeah, then what are some resources out there for preaching? Uh, because I needed resources for preaching, I needed ideas. And so I uh I ran across from some orthodox sources, and I'm not kidding when I say that learning an orthodox interpretation of so many scriptures, as I'm as I'm hearing what they're saying, it wasn't like when other people explain the scriptures and you go, Oh, I see what you mean. Oh, okay, cool. It was more like, of course that's what it means. Of course, that's the only that's the only thing it could have meant, right? Uh it was like now I read it and I just see it for what it is, instead of I see it for like instead of seeing it for an interpretation, I see it for what it's saying. And and it wasn't like these these uh priests that I was listening to, uh it wasn't that they were trying to be super intellectual or deep, or they weren't trying to wow me with their interpretation, they were just simply saying, here's what it is, and this is what it says. And then I had this sort of it was an amazing resource, amazing resource for preaching because now that I hear what it says, I can start, I can actually give a whole sermon on this. Wow, wow. Um and I that that happened all the time. Uh one other thing, this is this please I need to go back a little bit for this. Please, please. In in my early 20s, I began becoming very serious about faith and wanting to learn more. And I think I mentioned that people in the Church of Christ a lot of times won't really know what's out there, at least when I was growing up, I don't know what young people, I don't know what it's like for them now. But I didn't know anything about the world, uh, as far as the Christian world outside of the churches of Christ. But when I was serious about this, my mother had a little bookshelf with books that she liked uh in the house. And I thought, uh, and I was still living at home at the time, and I thought, okay, let me just grab a random book off the shelf. I don't know any of these, any of these books or anything. It wasn't like anyone told me to read these things. And I grabbed Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis from the shelf. Oh, great. And I remember reading it, going, How did no one tell me this stuff existed my entire life? Yeah. It was it was thoughtful, and I kept waiting for him to say, and I got this from this verse. And he never does it. And that's that was always very frustrating for me as a Church of Christ member. He never says, Here's the verse and here's my explanation of it. He just talked about what Christianity is. And I thought to myself, this is unlike anything I've ever read. It's a Christian philosophy. I didn't know even what to call it. And it it was it was very transformative for me. And the next book I read was The Screwtape Letters, and I couldn't believe how good it was. And so then I pick up some other books and I pick up The Great Divorce, and I pick up everything that he has, and I read, I decided I want to read through everything this guy's ever written because it is so spot on and it touches me in a way that nothing had ever touched me before.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I had I had never in my life found other sources that did that. I had read other other theologians, I had learned a lot of other stuff. I had nobody else that would do that for me. And it's very strange to say, but I think it's very true. When I started reading some of the works of the saints, I started realizing it's like the Orthodox Church has a thousand C.S. Lewis's that touch me in that spot. And I couldn't believe how often, you know, I'm I'm reading Saint Seffroni. Yeah. And I'm just that the way he's describing uh what what it's like to be in worship and and how we know that when you're in worship, you're you're you're no longer in a temporal space. And he's he just sort of describes it, and I go, that's touching me in that same spot. Yeah. And so uh I think that actually somehow my love for C. S. Lewis helped me to to see also that there's a whole wide, there's a world of this talking to the heart, like C. S. Lewis does, yes, that's out there. And uh and it really helped me a lot to to fall in love with so many Orthodox writers and saints that that really, I mean, the way that they can just speak directly to your heart is just it's hard to explain.
SPEAKER_00:Cause because you're right, it is hard to explain unless unless you're actually reading their works, learning about their lives. I love, love, love what you said, Brandon. It's as if the Orthodox Church has a thousand C.S. Lewis. I want that to be the title of this of this video. It's just fantastic, and that's so well put. I remember when I had first, I won't go into my whole story because I've told it many times here on Cloud of Witnesses, but when I was in those early, early stages of of coming to orthodoxy, I'll never forget when I first came across Polycarp, Saint Ignatius, primarily, those are the first two big ones that I read. And I had that same thought which I what you expressed, which is no one's ever, I've been a Christian for you know 26 years, 25 years of my life, and I've never even heard the name Saint Ignatius. I've never heard of Polycarp, you know, let alone Clement or Barnabas, or you know what I mean? Yeah, and and it's such a beautiful, powerful, like you said, these are men who were willingly going to their deaths, and not just a simple death, but let's face it, a gruesome death for their faith. And they had every opportunity to turn to the side. And what did they do the whole time? They were praying for others and they were asking others to pray for them. And it's I can't help but feel that same uh passion that you were explaining there, uh, Brandon. And I love that. And we are, we are so blessed as Orthodox Christians to have the entire history of the church as opposed to, well, here's this little segment of Christendom that agrees with my denomination that I can trust, you know, I can faithfully trust.
SPEAKER_01:I think that that's exactly right. I knew of these names because one of the things that the Church of Christ does is uh go through the pre-nicene fathers to find reasonings for their interpretation of things. Wow. So I I grew up knowing about Tertullian and his defense of uh there's no such thing as a uh a dry salvation, meaning you have to be baptized. You know, that was the whole idea. And uh and I knew of of them as far as an interpretation for certain key texts that we relied on. It's fascinating. So I but I never had read them thinking to myself, did you read them in whole as a whole, but also it had never occurred to me that they saw themselves as a part of something, as a part of a church, yeah, as a part of a single body that had a living tradition. It never occurred to me uh that they're not writing a defense of their positions, they're just teaching what they've heard and they're they're expressing their love for the people around them. And so these wonderful works that we have that are still left over are their pastoral works. They're their works of love. Uh and uh, and that's exactly how I came to eventually read Saint Paul, right? Where before Saint Paul was just giving us, you know, in a weird form a bunch of lists of things to do or not do, but he did it in this kind of strange form. Where he would just talk, you know, as if he's talking to a group of people, but he might as well have just made bullet points, you know, uh, because that's the way that I had extracted the information. Uh, whereas now I'm reading Paul and he says something like, imitate me as I am imitating Christ. Yeah. And I don't think it would have ever occurred to me as a Church of Christ member, I need to find somebody to imitate. I should be looking for people to imitate. I should find someone who's very spiritual and is close to God and is imitating Christ, and then follow and you know, imitate that person. Right. And now that's the most logical thing is to say, yeah, we should we should definitely uh uh look to someone who is is in their tradition. Good run their voice and yes, yeah, and imitate them because this is a this is a continuation of the life and teaching of Jesus. The both the teaching, but also the the way that Jesus loves and the way that he has compassion on people and the way he the way he judges and makes determinations of what to say. I'll give you one example of something that really sort of bothered me, but I it's something I knew I wanted was when I was reading about Polycarp and about how the Christians at Polycarp's uh martyrdom, how they they begged for his bones because they saw them as more precious than gold. And I thought, what a beautiful idea, but where does someone even begin to start thinking like that? Yeah, where does someone even start beginning to consider the bones of someone as precious? I I I couldn't even start to think that way. You didn't have a category for that. I didn't. And I thought, okay, who taught them to be like that? And then you start, after you're down the orthodox path for long enough, you start realizing it was the most natural thing in the world. He loved them and they loved him. And this is still his body. This is this is the body that that would lay hands on them uh as as if it is Christ blessing them. This is the body that would feed them the Eucharist. This is the body of the one who um who performed the their baptisms and their uh their chrismations. So of course they see him as his remains, amen. His as as venerable. And yeah, I don't know. It's just how could we let you think to yourself, yeah, how could they have let his bones just sort of be thrown about? Of course they want to take care of him and and and and keep uh what's left of him uh close.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely, absolutely. Brandon, that is so beautifully put. Um as you're expressing these things, um, I I just want to genuinely express to you that my heart is filled with gratitude. Um, I I feel honored uh to be talking with you right now um because you're putting things in in words and in ways that I think are are really well told and almost feel as if I'm experiencing it myself, um, which is such a beautiful thing. I I have often talked recently about um the Charlie Kirk assassination. And because to my mind, it was a really great opportunity to connect with Protestants who may have such a difficult time with reverence for the saints, you know, with the uh icon veneration, you know, venerating saints in general. It's a concept very, you know, most Protestants tend to not easily accept. And yet they would have no problem, of course, revering, admiring. Now they wouldn't say they would venerate him, of course, but they would certainly respect Charlie Kirk. And as you were pointing out so beautifully, certainly they would not want to see his body, his, you know, dare I say it, you know, his corpse desecrated in any way. They want him treated with respect, as you would with someone you admire and and you feel died for their faith. And and so I I point to that as if you can take that little germ of a thought there, right? That that kernel of truth, and then maybe with gratitude, with with graciousness, try to see how orthodoxy, how the church has always revered its saints, because it's not that far from that. Um, and and and so just I'm just very grateful, Brandon, for you uh expressing that. Can I ask? You know, you talked about and I found it fascinating, by the way, that you guys would read segments, or if I'm hearing you correctly, it sounds like almost like you were proof texting from the church fathers, from the pre-nicene fathers, etc. Did the is it at all a thing in the Church of Christ? Do they question the canon? Do they, do they, or is it just kind of, no, we've got it, we know it's the Bible? Do those kinds of questions, because you had mentioned how you never thought to think that Polycarp, Ignatius, they were part of a body, they were part of the church, but you didn't think in those terms then. Can you talk a bit more about that?
SPEAKER_01:Sure. I think that a lot of it are just uh questions that we never even came up with when it comes to the canon, when it comes to and other things like that. I think for the average, say, Church of Christ member, Christmas is on a certain day, or Easter is on a certain day. And especially let's say Easter, because it changes, there's not really any sort of for the average person, any sort of thought as to, well, how does that calculate it? Who determines what the date is? Uh and now it's pretty common, at least, and I don't know how much this happens in other uh other congregations, but it was pretty common where I grew up to hear on Easter, well, every Sunday is Easter Sunday. So, yes, I will give an Easter sermon, but just remember this isn't exactly an important day versus other days because every Sunday is Easter Sunday. But they still, of course, celebrated Easter to a degree. Uh, maybe probably because people were going to be visiting and they knew that some people would expect an uh an Easter resurrectional sermon. Uh but uh really it was kind of seen as as another Sunday. Uh and it was never questioned where the date came from or how did we get it. And I had no idea that was an entire there was an entire history with the 14th of Nissan and all that stuff and the debates. Anyway, uh with that, I think that most people don't even think about where does the canon of the scripture come from? How do we know these are the correct books? Um, it doesn't even come up as a question. It's just like, yeah, this is what was given to us, yeah, and this is what we have. And if if anyone ever asked, well, how do you know that's the right Bible, they'd say, because it's the Bible that my parents have. I don't know. I would say though, that while scripture is extremely uh obviously extremely reverenced and extremely uh regarded, highly regarded, uh, at the same time, it it's there's a strong sense of eldership responsibility in churches of Christ. So uh it's it's up to the elders what books, if not the Bible, could be used in a in a teaching situation. It's uh it's up to the elders to determine whether, you know, could we, for instance, take mere Christianity and read it as a church, even in in a non uh even in a non-uh worship setting or something like that. And that they they would be it would be on them to say yes or no, and if there's gonna be any uh guardrails put on that or anything like that. And it's they there is this thought that uh you take mature Christians from the congregation and eventually uh uh through it's not it's not required, but through becoming a deacon for a while and serving as a deacon, and then eventually when the community regards you as being worthy, uh being given an eldership. And then there is a sense that okay, now this person has a very heavy weight put on their shoulders because people are going to be looking to them for uh not for direct teaching. Uh, usually I I don't know, there's a lot of elders that don't teach classes, don't preach, or anything like that. They make meetings in their eldership meetings, you know, uh, and some churches have elders that are more hands-on. Uh, but where I'm getting to here is to say uh if a decision is made, it's made by the elders, and there's not a whole lot other than maybe individual protesting or you know, it's like, hey, I, you know, talking to the person saying, I think this is a bad move. Uh, there's not really a lot for people to say or do because we were taught that, well, the eldership, the the the the elder um office is there to to guide, and that's we should be listening to them. So if anything, you might be able to say, and I this might be kind of a weak thing to say, but it's it's maybe possible to say it's the elders who are telling us this is the right book, you know, in a sense, you know what I mean? Like now, there's no sense in which they would ever say some other books should be in the Bible, but this is what they were taught, and so this is what they're they're teaching. Uh, us. And so if anything, we would probably just put it on that at well. This is what our elders say is the Bible, and so we're gonna go with that.
SPEAKER_00:We're going with it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, uh, I know that's kind of a weird answer, but I think it makes sense. And uh yeah, yeah, I it made it would make sense to me.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I I hear that. There's there's some overlap there with I think a lot of of uh groups. Um, you know, it's I I I want to ask, Brandy, you referenced earlier, you know, we talked a little bit about um, you know, the differences. It sounds like the churches of Christ at some point there was a splinter. I asked you earlier, you know, to tell us about some of the the those good things, right? And it sounds like there's a lot of of good that you know that has come out of and that you experienced in the the COC. Can you talk to us about um uh where have things gone astray? And and and and I am very curious because I don't mind if, or if you don't mind, I'd like to tell the story quickly of what I thought was the Church of Christ, uh my experience. Um I was in college and uh was in line. I forget what I was doing, it was in the administrative line for something. Uh might have been during the first week of of school or something. And it was a very weird and awkward situation because it was so it I could feel it in the moment. It seemed so forced. But this young man who was behind me, who I had never met, didn't know him from anything, he just he kind of tapped me on the shoulder and he said, Hey, do you do you want to play basketball sometime? And and I remember just being so struck by that. It's like, you know, one, I wasn't even into basketball really, you know, uh and and it just was odd. And and long story short, you know, he was like, Yeah, he's like, you want to play basketball sometime? And I was like, uh, you know, what do you mean by basketball? And he's like, Yeah, we can go play basketball. And what it was, and I ended up doing it, uh, he had me over to the house, this house where a bunch of his brothers, I I think, and sisters, at least there were women there. I don't know if they lived there or not. And we had a Bible study that ended up, Brandon, I'll never forget it. It was wild. And I was in my you know, early 20s, maybe even 19, 20 years old, and I'm in an upstairs room in a small circle with these men, and one of them, I think he was an elder, and he was walking me through these Bible verses in a very orderly fashion. He would say, now let's read this one, Jeremy. Now, what does that say? Do you agree that it says this? And I would be like, Yeah, I agree. You know, it says that. And it got to the point where as I'm trying to extricate myself, because I think at some point I could feel I'm like, okay, I see where he's trying to go, what they're trying to get me to admit, you know, et cetera. And I left there as he was yelling at the top of his lungs. And it's one of those memories that I'll never forget. And I got back to my car and I was just like, kind of like, what just happened? Yeah. Can you and and you had expressed that's not evidently the churches of Christ that you were a part of.
SPEAKER_01:No, uh, I almost because that doesn't sound like any kind of uh a program that a that a mainstream church of Christ would put on or do. Uh, there's they really don't like putting on pretenses and things like that. And what it sounds like to me is a group called the International Churches of Christ, uh, that usually their church will have the name of the city. Uh so in general, churches of Christ will have the name of the region uh or the road that the church building rests on or whatever, because they don't like to name things other than just location-wise. But the international churches of Christ think there should be only one church of Christ per city, and so they claim the city name as theirs. Uh, and that's generally um how they're gonna be identified uh because they will tell they will tell people they're from the churches of Christ. Uh, but those that group of people would not consider, I'm sorry, that group of people would not have considered me to be uh a member of their group for sure. Uh I was approached uh in when I was in college, I was approached by someone saying they were going to do a Bible study, and I said, Oh, and I had not mingled with other Christians much, and then I find out they're from the Church of Christ, and I go, Oh, okay, neat. Great. I'll I'll go to your Bible study. And it was that the Bible study was a group of people, they were walking through kind of what you were saying. Yes. And then I wanted to introduce myself and I got invited to lunch, and we set up a time. And when I sat down with the person, that's when I realized this person doesn't see me at all as a brother. He doesn't, he's not giving me any sense of like benevolence in the way he's treating me at all. He wants me to come to his group. And I kind of saw how other people might look at the churches of Christ in the way that we could, even though I don't think we the churches of Christ wouldn't be as manipulative as that, I think. But as far as look, we're not gonna go to you, you need to come to us, you need to, you need to agree with us, uh, because we have we have some exclusivity uh terms. Yeah. Again, each each church of Christ is gonna be its own thing. Like there's not like, but it there's gonna be some basic, basic uh uh similarities. So I had that experience, and then I had to go to talk, I had to go talk to my preacher about what just happened, and he explained, yeah, and there were some there were some problems also because uh we don't really we get confused for them a lot, and uh they had some issues where they would even I don't want to tell tell it, I'm not gonna go into that, sure. Yeah, because because there were some other like even worse stuff that they would do um that was more manipulative. But uh so that that can be really um how about this? What if I sort of break down just for people's awareness of uh there is the restoration movement, out of the restoration movement uh comes basically two groups uh at first in the 1910s, I think. Uh, there is the churches of Christ and the Christian Church. The Christian church basically used instruments in their worship, whereas the churches of Christ were rigorous about not using instruments and using only a cappella singing. Um, that group still exists. You might see them now as the unaffiliated or the independent Christian church.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:Because, and and it it's gonna look very much like a church of Christ, but it's gonna use instruments. Some of those, some of them now look a little bit more like a mega church. I've seen them with like bands and stuff play. But a lot of them are gonna be fairly similar to a church of Christ, just with instruments. Uh, and there was always a, I think there was always a loose, like, okay, they're connected to us, but they're not really because they use instruments. Uh and that group kind of, I believe, split be between those who formed an actual denomination. Uh, that denomination is widely known as the disciples of Christ Christian Church. And uh and then the ones that didn't form were became more independent. And that denomination, uh they're out there. If you so if you go to a Christian church, it might be uh I don't know how to say this any more gently. If there's a if there's a rainbow flag around, it's probably the disciples of Christ Christian Church. Yeah, and if there's not, it might be an independent church, uh Christian church. Uh so that was that all those splits, there were some other splits, and then uh the indep sorry, the international churches of Christ was a sect, it wasn't even a split, it was a group that that was broken off. One fun story, and this may not uh this may not make it into the final production here, but one fun story is that if you're ever looking for a uh a complete blast of the Book of Mormon, like a complete just like what people of the day would have been read, especially people that weren't into the Book of Mormon, look up Alexander Campbell's review of the Books of Mormon. Oh wow, he they so I believe if I I think I understand the story right, Joseph Smith's parents were part of the restoration movement, uh-huh. And Joseph Smith was not, I don't think, in the group, but there was a lot of people that were going and following him. And so some of the people asked Alexander Campbell, would Campbell, would you please look at this and say it's tell us if there's anything to this as being legitimate or not? So he read through it and he wrote a response, and it is scathing. Wow. He he he points out error after error after error, and it's very detailed. It's it's it's oh that would be a fascinating read. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um, and is it available online or is that in book form something or I think so there.
SPEAKER_01:There are people who have sought to categorize and archive all of Alexander Campbell's writings because uh while they're not used and they're not taught and they're you know they're still important to people, and so they they've categorized them online. And I think you can pretty easily find that uh that review of the book. Uh he was reading the first edition that actually has the Book of Mormon, I think it has by Joseph Smith, like as listed as the author. Yeah, and he thought that was just humorous that he listed himself as the author uh in the first edition.
SPEAKER_00:Anyway, um that by the way, Brandon, I'll just say it because this is the kind of podcast this is. That's staying in. Because that's basically I love that. No, okay. We actually, you know, um, in fact, I'm going to be interviewing uh, I'm not sure when, but coming up fairly soon, uh, an individual who came out of Mormonism. Okay. And his his ministry is you know talking with Mormons and confronting those those issues. So um I I'm very fascinated by that whole conversation as well.
SPEAKER_01:It's not Dave, is it?
SPEAKER_00:No.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. All right. All right, good.
SPEAKER_00:Um we can talk offline about, yeah, if you have if you want to let me know about something. It's not though. That's the person I'm gonna talk to is not named Dave. Um I'm not sure who who you're referring to.
SPEAKER_01:Uh there's a guy named, I think his name is Dave Barowitz, I think that's his name. He was from Utah, and uh he I know he became Orthodox because I saw some of he it was he was documenting the whole uh journey uh talk up to his baptism. And uh and I thought I was watching that happen as I was looking into orthodoxy. So I just thought, oh, maybe maybe it's the same person here. Okay, cool, cool.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, um, so Brandon, it I wanna let's bring this. I don't wanna I want to be mindful of your time and all that. Um, this has been awesome, by the way. I absolutely love talking with you. Um, and I would be happy to continue the conversation, you know, down the road as well. Um have you back on the podcast. Um one thing I didn't hear about the COC that I'm curious about, because it seems to me it would be a thing, but uh you didn't seem to highlight it. Is is the preacher, the pastor, it sounds like they're less of a figurehead in the COC than they are in typical Protestant churches. Is that because of that elder, that board of elders you were talking about?
SPEAKER_01:Yes, I think that's exactly right. There is a very high suspicion for uh cults of personality within the churches of Christ. The the minister uh is a person who is hired to do preaching and maybe some other uh ministerial roles, uh they would they would stay away from calling that person pastor or other other um other things. Um, as far as I know, we we would use minister and deacon pretty interchangeably, except with if if you're a a minister is probably just someone, usually someone who's on a payroll of some kind, whereas a deacon would be someone who's serving in the same uh capacity but w without being paid. I don't know if that's the same across the board everywhere, sure, but it's an easy way to determine because I think I think minister is just a uh I think minister is just a uh uh translation of deaconos, and where deacon is a transliteration of the same word, and so anyway. Um so there's a there is a suspicion of uh those cults, and so you won't usually see um in mainstream, maybe maybe some churches would do it, but in mainstream churches of Christ, you wouldn't usually see the name of the minister posted places, um as as in in like an advert in a way that's advertising it. Sure, sure. Um, and that person usually will teach classes and other Bible studies, um, uh those sorts of groups um and take on that role, but that person is almost never, it's not forbidden, but that person is almost never an elder at the church, is never someone also who makes decisions for for guiding the church. That's very interesting. And and that's done on purpose. Um, it can happen where it happened, but uh but it it's pretty rare. I think that normally they would they would see themselves as uh as hired, although yeah, they're hired to be there, and usually they move there from somewhere else after they go to um Bible college or whatever it is they get their degree in, and they'll they'll move there and they're pretty much permanent. I mean, unless the elders decide, you know, you're no longer wanted here, and they have to move on, which is you know a sad reality for some people that they they they just keep some people just run into elderships that almost hire you just to just to try you out, you know, and then have you move on, and and that's a hard life. But they're not usually part of actual decision making for the church.
SPEAKER_00:Fascinating, Brandon. I want to ask you, um, and I want to give you this opportunity. You're an Orthodox Christian now. Thank you to God. Um what uh assuming that there's someone out there right now listening to this, and maybe maybe they're part of the churches of Christ. Maybe they've heard of Orthodoxy, maybe they haven't. What is your what what would you say to someone? What do you want them to know about your faith now compared to being part of the of the church, the COC?
SPEAKER_01:I think what I would like people to know is let me actually kind of back up a little bit, if it's okay. Please. You had asked me before about issues and problems and stuff, and there's something that I think that probably I should talk about. It's when I was younger, uh, people knew how to pray in the church. And it was just, I'm not sure how people knew how to pray, but they would go up and they would be very reverent and they would use like real prayer words. I I grew up respecting these prayers that that and I thought, you know, when I was a kid, I thought they were too long and boring, but still at the same time, I knew there was something reverent about them.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Uh, we always had the communion table as the centerpiece of the church, and uh at least the centerpiece of the church building. And and we knew that that represented that we saw this as very central, that we came together for communion. Um, that was the purpose. Everything else was around that. And I do think that uh that for whatever reason, that's becoming less and less true. Uh communion's getting rushed through. Uh, there's there's more uh issues where uh it used to be that someone would home make the communion bread and then bring it. Uh but eventually what happens is uh it became just regular crackers, and then and then there was a flu a long time ago, and then we got these individual pellets, and then eventually we were doing the the little cups with the the the wafer on the top of it, so the pre-packaged stuff. And since we're we're using those, do we really need a table? Do we really need to have the centerpiece of our church? And so it's it's moved to the side.
SPEAKER_00:And this is all uh pardon me for for but because I find this very, very important and fascinating. This is all within your lifetime in terms of this evolution or maybe a devolution that you're describing. That you've seen this in in your time.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, for sure, for sure. Uh and I, you know, some places are might be holding on to all sorts of things, you know. Uh, but I've just seen it more and more where we can't remember why we do things. Like we can't remember why is it that we uh why is it that we've had communion as the central part of our uh religious life? Um do we really need to have basically two sermons? Because there's the sermon and then there's the communion preparation, which is it takes almost as much time as the sermon in a lot of places. Or is it possible that we just kind of go through this, we get through the motions, we get to the end of it, and then we can move on. And I think that that's happened over time. And then, you know, I think it's also because there are just maybe less people willing to do it, uh, prayers become, I don't know, the irreverent is probably the best word for it, where the person goes up there and just says, you know, Father God, I just I just want to, we just come to you, we just, you know, and it's there's not a sense of of reverence there for it. And we we move on and we say, okay, well, the person did their best and we're trying not to judge, but at the same time, there seems seems to be something missing in the church. What I have definitely come to really appreciate is I didn't think anybody did communion more reverently than us. Like I my whole life, you know. Uh I just didn't understand that an Orthodox Christian begins prep preparing for Holy Communion, like basically the week before, but seriously, the night before. Absolutely, the morning of is saying preparatory prayers, uh, preparing their body to receive Jesus' body and blood. Uh, the entire liturgy, it not just works up to it, but is it it it's it's the celebration of the Eucharist. This, what the entire thing is, is a celebration of it. And then we have our post-communion prayers, and it's not we're not skipping, we can't rush past that. If we did, there would be nothing left of the surface if if we just try to skip or rush past it. Right, it is so central, and it's much more central than I ever even gave it credit for before. I couldn't have, and I would say that that growing up, I saw the act itself as the thing that was holy, the obedience of Jesus said to do this, and we're obeying him, so we're doing it. It never occurred to me, even a little bit, that the holy holiness of it is the Lord's presence himself, that we revere this because the Lord is condescending to us, that he's making himself available to us in a in a form that we can eat him. And it never would have occurred to me before, what do you do with the the cup after it's done? It's like, well, if it's a plastic cup, you throw it in the trash, you know. Right. This that this idea, which is not was not hard for me to come to, but this idea in the Orthodox Church that even the chalice itself becomes something holy because it it's the thing that carries the blood of Christ.
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:Uh even the spoon. The spoon becomes holy. Yes. Yes. And uh, and that that is the point of this what we're doing. The point is God giving himself to us and making us holy from the inside. Yeah and and actually not just in some kind of God being far away and blessing us from far away. No, as intimately as you can possibly imagine, this eating of his body and blood is the whole point. This is what he died for, is to give that to us and for us to commune with him. And and then your entire life becomes a sacrifice of praise, right? Your whole life becomes uh a living out of praise. Yes. It becomes uh the uh the living out of what you're you're actually being given. Yeah, and it's not just that the Orthodox takes it more seriously, because that was amazing when I first was getting into it. It's that I never really thought about certain things beyond the surface level. I just never did. And I don't think we talked about it beyond the surface level. We never thought, like I said, about you know, what do you do with the the the the the cups or things like this? What do you do with this or that? It it never it never really mattered that much uh because we weren't thinking past the surface.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Jesus says to do this and we do it. It's a part of being a Christian, and it's holy because he says it's holy. Um and it never was uh there, it wasn't connected to everything and all, it wasn't the logos himself. It wasn't the it wasn't the reason for being itself. And that's what I've come to really appreciate. And that it takes a long time to get there, I think, to get to that sort of understanding of what it is that you're doing. But I can remember after being uh brought into the church, the first time approaching the chalice and almost not being able to take a step forward, right? Almost not being able to to approach because this is something different than what we had done before. Yes. And, you know, basically out of obedience moving forward, because it would be worse to to run away and not do it, right? Um, and of course, wanting to and wanting to be a part of that. Uh, you know, that's a that's that sort of level of understanding, and it helps inform everything in in my life. There's also, if I can say one more thing that I just wasn't expecting, there is something about not being an individual island of a Christian, and it's just me and God, and I get together with other Christians because it's the most practical way to worship God, and I need other people, you know, because of out of necessity. There is something to belonging to a body, struggling together, going through it together. Yes. The first time I experienced Holy Week, for instance, and the amount of prayer and the amount of of what you go through, and it's exhausting and and you're burned out. You're just like, how could we possibly pray this much? But you're doing it together. Yes. And then you're all reaching the destination together. And then we have the the the sermon that's always preached, in which we're inviting people who just are just now coming in the door at the last minute to come and join us because we're about to celebrate Pasca. And then you really celebrate. Yeah, you really celebrate. I mean, it's it's a celebration, like you can't you can't just like make that up. Yeah, it's it feels real and it feels connected to all Christians at all times. And that's how it's like, okay, I can see this is how this is what Christianity is. This is what it should have always been. Yeah. And it's more than just reading a book, getting as many things that obediences that I can to follow, and hoping that I'm doing it right. Uh, and then praying, because every Church of Christ member knows this. There's always the prayer that says, uh, forgive us if we're doing not doing this right, you know? Like it's it's you know, we we pray that these things are being done correctly. Yeah, because there's always that anxiety that, you know, what if we didn't get it right? What if we didn't interpret it right, you know? Uh so fascinating. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Is the churches of Christ, because I thought it was absolutely fascinating how you were describing this devolution within this denomination over a very short period of time when you when you compare it to the 2,000 years of church history, you know, in a snapshot, like you said, that seems like that communion and prayer and these things are being lost or they're forgetting the reason why and the reverence, etc. It makes me curious, and I don't know if you know this or not, but I want to pose the question is the churches of Christ denomination, is it is it growing? Is it is it falling apart? Are they losing people to more ancient practices? Do you know? Can you comment at all on on the state of that denomination?
SPEAKER_01:I can't uh comment exactly all over the place. I do know that the idea of having some local church that's a small group of people, uh, you know, less than a hundred usually that gets together, that was sort of the norm for churches of Christ for a long time. Each little community had their own. And it was kind of a uh it was kind of a uh frowned upon, heavily frowned upon if you had a close church of Christ to go to one like a town over just because you didn't like this one. I mean, that was that was like people were pretty serious about their local churches. Um I think that I think that's sort of dying out. Now you're gonna see larger places. Um, they're gonna see uh either extremely small, I hate to say it, but just sort of waiting for the the the final members to to die off or something before they close the doors, existing for them because they have nowhere else to go, or um like larger uh places with more than 500, more than a thousand people sometimes. Um and I don't know if that really represents like a large category. I just know that uh what will happen is one place will become popular and everyone's wanting to go to somewhere that's popular. They don't want to go to their kind of dying off church anymore. And so they'll find that popular place. I think that's that's kind of what happens.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, interesting.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:All righty. Thank you, uh, Brandon. Ladies and gentlemen, you guys have been hearing the story of Brandon Marlowe. Um, this has been Cloud of Witnesses. We're grateful that you listened this long. Um, we hope that you've been edified, um, have learned something. Please connect with us down in the comments. Let us know. Talk to Brandon, let us know um what you thought. Uh, what we like to always say is what'd we get right? And more importantly, what'd we get wrong? Uh, as comments are always so good at telling us what we what we get wrong. Uh, Brandon, thank you very much. And God bless you, and God bless your family. And and we just uh hope to see you again on Cloud of Witnesses sometime.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you. Thank you for having me on. I went and went to go get a uh a blessing from uh my spiritual father for this interview, and and he wanted to check out because I don't think he'd heard of the uh cloud of witnesses radio, and he went to your website and he goes, Oh, is it with these knuckleheads right here? And I'm gonna say, Yeah, because you guys are you guys look very casual and you know, right there.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, that's great. I will retell that story. That is that is exactly right. We we are a bunch of knuckleheads.