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After The Occult: From Tarot To Finding Tradition | One Woman's Battle with Demons Until Jesus Saves
Conversion stories often get reduced to neat headlines, but the road from New Age spirituality to historic Christianity is usually messy, humbling, and deeply human. In this conversation, Michaela Nikolaenko @MichaelaNikolaenko lays out a candid record of life inside tarot, yoga, psychedelics, and an adulterous relationship that spiraled into a series of demonic encounters. The scenes are visceral—faces morphing, oppressive presences, and a stark battle of wills that ended with a shaky, embarrassed prayer to Jesus. That plea wasn’t tidy, but it was decisive. What followed was a slow reconstruction: throwing out occult tools, breaking off a relationship that was corroding the soul, and letting Scripture set guardrails when fear of the dark felt nearer than hope. This is where the healing began: not with spectacle, but with obedience.
Her path to a church wasn’t linear. She tried a Catholic parish for holy water, sat with Mormon elders chasing answers about a “great mother,” and explored non-Christian traditions to avoid surrendering her favorite sins. None of it resolved the dread. A Protestant friend finally said, “Just come to church.” There she saw families, order, and women who would look her in the eyes and say the hard thing kindly: God isn’t sending you someone else’s spouse. Confession began informally in living rooms before it matured into sacrament. The Bible became less a slogan and more a survival guide. If she walked its way, the demonic stopped walking through her door.
Yet she still needed peace about Jesus himself. It arrived as a dream: a suffocating abyss like hell, then a burst of light warming her body, air in the lungs, the face of Christ breaking through. That experience wasn’t a lifestyle brand; it was rescue. Enter Orthodoxy, where the lives of the saints—Mary of Egypt, Moses the Black, Anthony the Great—normalized spiritual warfare and recovery. Reverence replaced adrenaline. The liturgy felt like work, sometimes literally painful, but that was the point. Worship isn’t entertainment; it is labor of love that shapes desire. Emotional highs faded; steadiness grew. The church calendar, fasts, and feasts became a map for ordinary holiness.
Practically, Michaela is now building resources for seekers leaving occult practices: short guides on tarot, moon rituals, psychedelics, and their spiritual costs through an Orthodox lens. The tone isn’t sneering. She respects the honest desire that drove her to search in the wrong places and insists that God used even that confusion to guide her home. She urges listeners to read the Apostolic Fathers—Ignatius, Polycarp, the Didache—and to use accessible summaries when primary texts feel dense. The goal isn’t trivia; it’s rootedness. Along the way, we pressed into real-life questions: navigating reverence without chasing constant “feels,” and simple dating wisdom for Orthodox men—groom, work, pursue, and be brave. The final word is simple and ancient: come and see. Online content can spark curiosity, but only a parish can teach you to breathe again.
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Throughout the span of our relationship, it was like the Egyptian plagues just unleashed.
SPEAKER_01:The demons were still trying to get you, Michaela.
SPEAKER_02:And they were the Mormon church was a big part of my testimony too. Like they've been trying to get me since I was like 16. Back to back to back. And then the next the final encounter I had, I was sober. So that's what made me because like on shrooms, it's like, okay, yeah, you can experience some creepy things.
SPEAKER_00:And so when I was there, I was like, what are people doing? Everyone's kissing everything, everyone's paling, people are doing this kind of cross. I was I was just so confused because I just I just showed up.
SPEAKER_02:I grew to appreciate the reference. Uh after I got burnt out of the non-denominational over-stimulation. Um then when I came back to Orthodoxy is when I was ready for it years later.
SPEAKER_01:Hi, welcome to Cloud of Witnesses. Jeremy Jeremiah here. We got a great episode for you. Michaela Nikolenko from the Raised and Redeemed podcast. She has an amazing, even a fantastic story of out of some very dark places in her life to eventually find Christianity. She tells her story, she shares with us a lot of her insight as a Christian woman in this world, in this online ministry community. And we have a great conversation lined up here for you. Remember, if you want to hear this entire episode unedited, uncut, please go check out our Patreon right now. We do hope that you stick around for this episode until the very end, and we'll hope to see you there. Enjoy. What was one of the things that pulled you out of the New Age? Maybe what was one of the first cracks that you started to see there?
SPEAKER_02:So it was seeing a demon.
SPEAKER_01:Oh wow. Oh wow.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Share it with our audience.
SPEAKER_02:Okay. So the same way that I came to the Orthodox Church, it wasn't like I was so excited to do this, but God just revealed the truth to me. And I was like, okay, we're going. Then if this is what you say, then I'm going. It was the same with becoming a Christian. I didn't want to be a Christian. I hated Christians. I thought they were so weird. Um yes, yes. But then I saw so I was living very deeply in a life of sin. I was working as an exotic dancer. I was working as a yoga teacher and um tarot card reader. Um I, yeah, my whole life was like just very dark. And I was in a relationship with a married man who I met at the strip club, actually. And throughout the span of our relationship, it was like the Egyptian plagues just unleashed. Wow. It was like every time I met him, something crazy, like a spider outbreak all over the room. Or yeah, like some graphic things I maybe won't say, but it was just like very explicitly like it felt like the Egyptian plagues. And he was a he was a Christian, a backslidden Christian um who was feeding his inner demons and being in this adulterous relationship. Um and so over time I was our we had these arguments about religion, and I was a goddess worshiper, you know. I was like, oh, you just follow the Christian God because like you need something to fear in order to behave. I don't need that, you know, like I'm free. And so I was very anti. And um, you know, when I look back, I see these sort of demonic encounters that I didn't see as demons at the time. Like it was like God just started taking the veil down for me to see. So like I had a really crazy alien encounter. Um, this was on shrooms. I used to take a lot of mushrooms. So the the alien encounter was on shrooms, and they were very demonic, scary. They were telling me my life purpose was to be like sex work, basically. Yeah. Um, because I took shrooms with the intention, everybody's like, Oh, you just didn't set your intention. I was like, No, my intention was to know my life purpose. And they appeared to me and told me this was my life purpose. So we're getting wacky here, guys. Sorry.
SPEAKER_01:No, no, no. It's okay. We we have uh individuals in our parish um who have similar backgrounds in terms of these are young men um who were using psychedelics and and using shrooms and you know, trying to find God, you know, trying to, like you were saying, you wanted to know your life purpose. They were seeking truth. And that's what I love about your channel, Michaela. And that and I mean this from the bottom of my heart. And I I want people to go and and look at your content because I I'll I'll remind our audience, you talk about a lot of everything you just now said, you talk about this um on your channel.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um, you go into into depth on your um your testimony, your, like you said, your the the life you were living back then and and all of that, and how it brought you to Christ, it brought you to the faith. Orthodox Christians, I think we need to constantly be reminded that uh Saint Mary of Egypt is one of our most beloved saints. Um, and Michaela, I'm sure you're aware of her story and her journey. Um, Saint Moses the Black, whom you know in the film Um that's recently been released. Um these are reality, this is reality, right? This is orthodoxy. This is the church, which is the hospital for the soul. And so I applaud you for talking about it with such frankness and openness and sobriety, because it's only I believe it's only confronting those things and being real about those things that we're gonna allow people to know, hey, I can come to an Orthodox parish and I'm not gonna be scolded or on an outsider or I'm too bad for the Orthodox Church. Michaela, we released a video just yesterday, and the type one of the titles is Orthodoxy is metal. I saw that Orthodoxy is heavy metal, but but this is the concept, right, Mario? Like this is the the idea that orthodoxy is hardcore. Yeah, orthodoxy is big enough, Michaela, to handle your past.
SPEAKER_02:I know, finally.
SPEAKER_01:Exactly. So so please continue. Talk, don't be afraid to talk about that because that is powerful.
SPEAKER_02:No, thank you so much. And I love that you brought up the the saints and how this is true to the lives of the of the saints because when I started listening to the Synax Arion and learning more about the saints, I was like, oh my gosh, they went through what I went through. Like, I'm not alone. And I love that it was in writing, like that's documented for us to learn from and live by to follow their example. Um, so yeah, just to kind of like to go back to that. So yeah, it was like I was having one encounter after the next that was demonic. But at the time I was like, oh, these are weird spirit guides who make me feel scared. Um, yeah. And so the next one, it was like another demon encounter when I was on shrooms. I saw this like sea urchin start to morph in this guy's face, and I like led my friend away. It was like back to back to back to back. And then the next the final encounter I had, I was sober. So that's what made me because like on shrooms, it's like, okay, yeah, you can experience some creepy things.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:But this time I was sober and I was looking into his eyes, and his face began morphing into a beast. Um and it was yeah, it was the scariest thing I'd ever seen. Uh, I cried out to Jesus for the first time that night. It took a while. I mean, I I share the whole encounter on my YouTube, like this whole like showdown. It was like a wild west. I don't know, it maybe was it maybe lasted five minutes, but it felt like an eternity of this like war of this demon attack. And um, that's I that night I asked him, I said, could you pray to your God for us? Can you pray to Jesus to protect us? And um, he prayed, and I continued to feel this demonic spirit in the room. And uh I felt like it was telling me not to pray, but I kept feeling like I needed to pray. I it was like the Holy Spirit was urging me to pray, and this demon was like, Who are you to pray? You don't even believe in Jesus. Like it just was like criticizing me, criticizing me. And as it was ramping up, ramping up, ramping up, I knew I needed to be the one to pray. So it was the most humiliating. Like, I I just felt so humbled, like tears are streaming down my face, and I'm like, Jesus, please. And I didn't know what was gonna happen after that, but it was like the next couple of weeks were a whirlwind of God revealing things to me and drawing me to Him and me throwing away all my witchcraft stuff, getting out of this relationship, sacrificing that relationship to follow Christ. Um, yeah. So I I don't remember exactly what the origin of the question was, but that was my out of the new age, like what got me out of the new age.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, no, that was that's powerful. You have this, you know, wild experience with the demonic. You know you need Christ, you come to Christ. At that time, I from what I'm hearing, you didn't know a lot about Christianity, if at all. How did you decide where to go? How did you find did you find a church? Did you look something up online? Like, what was the what were those initial stages like when you knew you needed Christ?
SPEAKER_02:Uh I went on a journey. Um I went to a Catholic church for holy water and I sprinkled it all over my apartment.
SPEAKER_01:Um not a bad idea, not a not a bad thought.
SPEAKER_02:I went to a Mormon church.
SPEAKER_01:Oh boy.
SPEAKER_02:I watched your video. Yes.
SPEAKER_01:The demons were still trying to get you, Michaela.
SPEAKER_02:And they were. The Mormon church was a big part of my testimony too. Like they've been trying to get me since I was like 16.
SPEAKER_01:Wow, Lord have mercy. That's how we Michaela, we're gonna have to have you back on Cloud Witnesses. We need to. This is there's a lot to talk about. That's wild.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. So I went there and I remember sitting down with like these three teenage boys who were trying to answer my questions, but they were elder, make something and something. And they were telling me, like, I remember asking about the great mother because that's what I wanted on that shrooms encounter when I saw the aliens. And oh my gosh, there's like so much I'm forgetting. Like, God appeared before the aliens came. He like appeared and told me I can stop all of this. And I was like, no, I need to know about the aliens. I need to know about the great mother. So I rejected God and then was just brutally demonically attacked and possessed after this. Um, and so I asked the Mormon guys, I was like, so what about the great mother? And they're like, Oh, yes, like there is the great mother, but God loves her so much that he hides her name because you know, you people blaspheme Jesus all the time. And if we knew the name of the mother, then people would blaspheme the mother. So they're answering these things, and I'm like, oh, that's interesting. And like, I think they depicted Satan as like the brother of Jesus. And I was like, this is kind of in align with what I believe with what I believe at the time, like as a pagan, um, yeah. And so after that, uh, I looked into like I was looking into lots of faiths, like how do all the different faiths combat demonic spirits and dark energy? I didn't want to be a Christian. I'm telling you, like, I'm like, how do the Buddhists do it? How do the Hindus do it? I'm looking everywhere. Like, I don't want to give up my sin. I didn't want to give up that relationship, I didn't want to give up any of the things I was doing. Yeah, and then finally there was one Christian in my yoga teacher trading. I knew one Christian in the whole state of Arizona, and I reached out to her, and nobody was believing me. Like, that was the big thing is I was telling all my yogi friends about this demon encounter, and they're like, Yeah, okay, like your shadow self. I'm sure it was just a version of your shadow self you saw, or like you were in a dark place psychologically at that time. Yes, and I was like, I believed all these things too, and then I saw it. So, like, I used to preach what you're saying to me, and just nobody was believing me. So I reached out to a Christian and I told her, and she believed me because Christians, we know about demons, like the demons are talked about in the Bible all the time. And she was like, just come to church with me. And given yeah, given it was a Protestant church, it didn't matter at the time, you know. At the time it was exactly what I needed. I showed up, and I remember like the first thing I noticed was families and like all these families together, and I was like, Oh my gosh, like I want a family. And then I was like, I don't want to break apart this man's family. And I just the Holy Spirit just started working in my heart. And after that, I started going to women's groups, and I began confessing like this relationship I was in to these other women, and they were like, you know, God isn't the God of confusion, his word is clear, he's not gonna send you someone else's husband. Like this, this some somebody in the spirit may have sent this man, it wasn't God. So I started like practicing this confession with fellow believers before the real sacrament of confession. It was like I was that's how I was able to do that in the beginning.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Um, and really it was like a blind leap of faith of like, okay, let me just try to follow this Bible. I began to see, okay, the Bible is to protect us from demons because I was just so afraid to see another demon. Like I was so scared. So I was like, oh, the Bible. If I just follow the Bible and I do what the Bible says, I won't see demons. Okay, right on, let's do it. Um, but it was hard because it cost me sacrificing everything. Um, but my final hangup was Jesus. I was like, okay, I believe in the Bible now, but like, how do I really know that Jesus is God? Even though the Bible like eludes and you know teaches this, but I that was my last hangup, and I just was praying and praying and praying and praying. And for most people, it's not going to be some spiritual encounter. It may be like a quiet peace God gives your heart while you're reading scripture. Now there's different Orthodox ways I would advise people, but at the time I was just praying, like, God, please give me peace that Jesus is Lord. And I ended up having a really crazy dream. And I miss these things. Like, I low-key miss, well, high-key miss all these encounters I had in the beginning. I'm like, God, I've not seen a peep of nothing. Um, it feels quiet now. That's why I'm trying to learn to like pray and fast more because I'm like, maybe then I'll have an encounter again. But so back at that time, um, I was praying, and then I had this dream that I was in hell, and it was like this sleep paralysis dream. And I kept waking up in this like black abyss, and I'm like stuck and I can't move, and my body keeps getting thrown into this black abyss. And then, like, I have the next part of this dream a few days later, where I'm like back in this black abyss, and that's what hell felt like to me. There was no oxygen, there was no light, there was no people, like I was all alone. And from a distance, I saw this little beam of light, and it gave me hope. I was like, okay, something is out there.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And then this light zooms up to me and like comes around me, and I'm feeling the like I'm in the middle of the light now, and it's warming my body. And I took a deep breath and I'm feeling oxygen enter my lungs, and it's like I'm looking at the sun before me, and then through the center of the sun came the face of Jesus. And I just knew in my heart in that moment that he's who saved me from hell, he's who was, you know, he saved me from everything that I just came out of. And it wasn't just like, oh, I'm follow following the Bible, it was Jesus as well, you know.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So I know like the orthodox way, it's like not all about all this like charismatic, like spiritual experiences, but that was my coming to the faith. And I think it was a grace God extended me because I was the doubting Thomas. And now that I'm in the faith, it's like, yeah, I haven't had spiritual encounters like that since then. Now it's like the dutiful work of faith and obedience and growing in the in the faith. And so I just think it was a it was a exception of grace he extended me at that time to come to him.
SPEAKER_01:Michaela, I I hear you 100%. And I think that if you read, or maybe I'll say when you read, um, you know, because God grant you many years, um, and you've got you know, your lifetime to continue to read the saints of the church and the Senexarians and et cetera, you'll find that the charisma of the church is alive and well. Um and there are all sorts of stories and the patron saint of our parish, Saint Anthony the Great, his battling of demons uh is is famous and is like physical, even. Like I would encourage you to read some of his um stories. Like it's really absolutely amazing and not not that dissimilar in some ways from what you're describing. Um he in literally engaged with the demonic um in battled. So it's uh I don't think it's as far from orthodoxy as as you may think. But at the same time, I hear you. I know what you mean. That this is, you know, obviously it's a very special. I'm not trying to minimize your experience at all.
SPEAKER_02:Um, I appreciate that because I it is a fear I had in coming to the church of like, am I ever gonna like feel a move of the Lord like this again? Or like the charisma you talked about. So I love to hear that and would love to learn more and hopefully one day experience it again.
SPEAKER_01:Sure, sure, absolutely. I think in some ways, Michaela, you know, this is is God granting your prayer in the sense that you had asked to be protected from these things. Yeah. Yeah. And I think there's a very real element to that, you know, that God is protecting you from that. Um, you know, and obviously with everything, of course, you know, always, you know, be in constant communication with your spiritual father and you know how he is advising you on all these things. Um but yeah, I would just encourage you to read the continue to read the lives of the saints. You'll be maybe very happily surprised to find um that the spiritual realm is right there and orthodoxy uh deals with it constantly. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you for that.
SPEAKER_01:Of course, of course. So, Michaela, um describe your first divine liturgy in one word.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, so I told you my answer was gonna be a little dumb, but my word was ouch. I was wearing heels like three, four. I don't, and I don't wear heels. I literally got rid of all my heels. Maybe because I became Orthodox, I don't know. Um, but at that time I was wearing heels and uh I went to a Russian Orthodox church with my husband, and it was my first time being at a Orthodox church. And um, at the time I was very Protestant and I was very closed-minded to the experience of being there. I was just like, okay, if this is like your roots, I'll go with you. But I was like a relationship over, you know, relationship over religion, not realizing that the religion actually helps you grow in your relationship with Christ.
SPEAKER_01:Amen to that. Yep.
SPEAKER_02:So I that's all I was thinking about was my feet hurting.
SPEAKER_01:That's great. It actually speaks a lot to the you know, the reality of where you were at the time. And and it's true, liturgy is is work, right? The Greek word liturgea, that's what it literally means is work, right? It's the work of the people. Um and it's not easy. Uh, and we do stand a lot. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Mario, for you. Oh, after you said ouch, I was like, you know what, I think that's my my word too, because my I felt like my lower back was gonna snap like a glow. Because I showed up at nine for Orthros and I stood the entire time in the back. And I was like, yeah, I feel like I don't know if I can do this. But if not, if I don't want to, I don't want to take your answer. I would say for me it was confusion. Cause I again I've I grew up Catholic until I was about eight years old. And then so I don't really remember much of it other than just some holidays. And then I was evangelical most of my most of my life. And so when I was there, I was just like, what are people doing? Everyone's kissing everything. Everyone's bowing. People are doing the sign of the cross. I was, I was just so confused because I just I just showed up and I just wanted to see what orthodoxy was all about without without any guide, without any friends. I didn't even watch a video of what to expect. Um so for me it was it was confusion. But again, I kept coming, and I think by the third week, um, when I finally had somebody kind of like, hey, let me show you what what we're doing, and I I started understanding, then it all started to click and I wasn't confused anymore.
SPEAKER_01:Super cool. For me, the one word is reverence. Um you know, I my I think my experience, I was in a very different place than where both of you guys were. I I was I was so ready for orthodoxy to at the time. Orthodoxy was the answer I was looking for, I had been looking for. And as I mentioned earlier, that that Holy Thursday service was was one of my first experiences. So for me, I just felt like I found the place where I could actually worship God in a way that worship never, I never understood worship before I was Orthodox. I thought I did, but I don't think I did. And so um understanding the the reverence you feel just walking into an Orthodox parish with the that's part of why it is built the way it is, right? Is to call our hearts and our minds to God and to his awesomeness, right? One of my favorite icons is the Panto Krator, right, which is usually the Christ icon up in the top of the dome. And it's because you're seeing Christ, the the Lord of all, right? The the creator and and judge of the world. It's really, really um beautiful and powerful. Um, and it's still going to this day, which I'm so grateful for, you know.
SPEAKER_02:I grew to appreciate the reverence uh after I got burnt out of the non-denominational overstimulation. Um when I came back to orthodoxy is when I was ready for it years later. So I know what you mean.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's it and that's what I think another beauty of orthodoxy is that it is a learning process. I think it there's it ebbs and it flows, and you know.
SPEAKER_00:And I think, especially as um, you know, they come from an evangelical background, and um, my mom's a catechumen right now. Um, and having that constant emotional experience and then going away from that to to the Orthodox Church, which I think that, you know, I I do get emotional, especially like when they're doing the great procession. Um, but there's not that's not the emphasis, right? That's not the um point of it all. Um, I feel like for a lot of people who are coming to the Orthodox Church, sometimes they can feel kind of like either refreshed, they're like, oh man, I'm not going through this emotional experience all the time, or they can feel like, oh, I'm far away from God because I'm not going through this emotional experience all the time, you know? Um, and I think I think it's important to recognize that, um, especially for everyone who's coming into the church.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yep. I completely agree. That was something I struggled with when I was first coming and missing that emotion, the emotional highs.
SPEAKER_01:Right. We're about to hit the new year here. Um, you know, as an Orthodox Christian, we have the church calendar, you know, before we know it, it's gonna be, you know, Lent and all that, and Holy Week and, you know, the beauties of all that. What um are you looking forward to most in 2026? And and maybe even for our audience and and for your listeners, what do you have in store? What are you excited about with your ministry and and your channel?
SPEAKER_02:Uh yeah, that's a good question. I think I'm looking forward to 2026 being a year that I live out the faith even more. Like this year was I finally began to learn the church calendar, like what the heck is going on every day. Yeah. Um, and it's a lot of information. And um, sometimes most of the time, you know, I don't know. And then I get on Instagram and I see an Orthodox sister in Christ posting, like, oh, the cookies she baked ahead of time for today's event. And I was like, oh shoot, like I didn't know I was supposed to do that. Um, so next year I really want to just like live these things out more, live more liturgic liturgically, um, be more active with the fasts. I've kind of been tiptoeing into the consistency of doing the fasts. And so I hope to just be stronger in living liturgically next year. Amen. And then as far as my content goes, oh my gosh, I so it was my goal of 2025 to get my book published. And I didn't realize how hard it was to get a book published and to get in contact with an agent. And um yeah, that like I applied, I queried a lot of agents like in March of 2025, and then all of them say, you know, you wait six to 12 weeks to hear back. And so next thing I know, the whole year went by and I didn't get an agent. And so I'm like, okay, I guess that's gonna be my new goal of 2026 is trying to get an agent again and just apply every day. Like my husband does real estate and he prospects. You have to prospect every day. So I'm really gonna work on that. And then I have a YouTube series coming up. I'm planning to do like um an ex new age breakdown, like great, yeah, a like a 10-minute video with a whole series. I have like 20 videos in mind of um orthodox Christian perspective on tarot cards, orthodox Christian perspective on moon circles and rituals, orthodox Christian perspective on psychedelics, like just this whole series going into all of those sort of things. I think sometimes it can seem like we're demonizing our past and coming back and talking about like, oh, this is why when you're engaging in witchcraft, you're connecting with demons, and like now we we shed the light on these things in sharing about it. And it's not that I demonized that part of my journey because I truly was seeking God, but I was confused, I was in delusion. Um, so I respect those parts of me seeking for God, even though I was in the wrong areas, because it ultimately led me to orthodoxy. Even when I came into the Protestant church, I'm still seeking God and it's just a step-by-step by step journey. So I don't, I don't demonize any of those parts I left behind. I think they're actually what led me here ultimately.
SPEAKER_01:Something I still respect about something I left behind was um the genuine love for the holy scriptures. Um, as a Protestant, you know, we all know that the it's it's all about scripture, um, at least from a certain perspective and certain interpretation. Um, but that certainly is something that I'm grateful for, you know, to this day. I think that Orthodox, at least cradle Orthodox, get a bad rap uh sometimes, you know, oh, you don't even read the Bible. And because some Orthodox, you know, are notorious for we don't know Bible verses the same way that Protestants do. Protestants would be like, Hebrews, you know, 11:1. And whereas an Orthodox typically tends to say, well, you know, somewhere in the Bible where it says that thing, you know, I fit in here.
SPEAKER_02:This is my place. There you go.
SPEAKER_01:There you go. Well, you know what, Michaela? I I'm glad you said that, because um when you read, and I would challenge the audience uh to test me on this. Read the Apostolic Fathers, read Clement, read Ignatius, read Polycarby. You will be surprised. They do not quote Bible chapters and verses. They didn't exist. They would literally, literally, Clement, I loved it. He would just say, as you know, somewhere in the Bible it says, and then he would quote it. Like he knows what he's saying. He didn't you know, he understands the the the verse, but he doesn't have to know where it is. He just says, Oh, you know, somewhere in scripture it says, and these are the church apostolic fathers of the church. So Michaela, you're in good ground. Uh don't sweat it.
SPEAKER_02:Um I have I have maybe a dumb newbie question.
SPEAKER_01:Sure, go ahead.
SPEAKER_02:When someone says read Clement or Ignatius, like what does that mean?
SPEAKER_01:Like a specific book or so, Michaela, I'm really, really glad you asked. Um, the church fathers are readily available. So when someone says, Hey, read Clement, right? Or read Saint Ignatius, whose feast day was just yesterday, there are all kinds of books. You can literally look up um first Clement or you can look up Saint Ignatius epistles. And you will find literally, it's just there's just tons of it. There's tons of information. It's all online as well. Um, you can search New Advent, and Mikaela, if I remember, I'll actually post this down below. Um, New Advent, and you just search any of the fathers, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, uh, Polycarp, and literally it's all there. It's all free, um, and it's it's awesome. It's totally available.
SPEAKER_02:Was that a mega book you just showed?
SPEAKER_01:Or like or it is a mega book. It's kind of heavy, too. Yeah, it is. I I wouldn't and actually I hate to say it, I don't actually don't even recommend this particular one. It's just the way that it's printed. Um, it's like just tons of text, and it's not the easiest read. Well, that's a bad example. That looks pretty easy. You can see.
SPEAKER_02:Uh, so is this like multiple books within a book?
SPEAKER_01:This one is, yes.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:So don't be intimidated by it because there's a number of them.
SPEAKER_00:They're very short and very like the incarnation by St. Alex. Is it by uh St. Athenacious? St. Athanasius, yeah. Like that's the first um patristic writing that I read. Um, there's different ones.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and that one is very short. It's it's you know, we're talking a little, tiny, little not pamphlet, it's a book, but it's not long at all. Um, that's a great question, Michaela. I love that.
SPEAKER_00:Does your church have a bookstore?
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, probably in there, they probably have different writings from some of the church fathers.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I would think so. I would think so.
SPEAKER_02:Um Yeah, so like reading the 30 steps to heaven, does that is is that like reading the church fathers because it's based on what St. John Climachus says?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, you know, and and to be very frank with you, Michaela, sometimes that stuff's even better to read because you have someone who is, you know, who's obviously read it and studied it and, you know, I'm sure knows Greek and you know, all these things, and they're distilling it and and presenting it in a way that makes it more palatable, right? More more digestible. Um, so I would highly recommend that. There are some church fathers that are easier to read than others. Um and I will tell you straight up, St. Ignatius, Polycarp, um for sure, you could pick it up right now. St. Athanasius, the the one that referenced by Mario, you could read that tomorrow afternoon. Like it's literally, it's I don't want to say easy reading, but it's basically easy reading. Um we get into Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, some of that stuff can be a little uh heady, you know, a little bit. Um they get into some of the historical stuff that we're we just don't know anything about. They he talks about like the heresies of the first and second century, and you're kind of like, I didn't never needed to know this much about paganism in Rome. Um, but but again, most of it, the vast majority of it. In fact, even the D decay. Uh you've probably heard of that, Michaela. It's the writings of the apostles, it's called, or the teachings of the apostles. Very easy to read, only uh 15, 20 pages at most, um to read. So yeah, you can absolutely um you know expose yourself to literally first century and early second century writings, uh, you know, without having to go get a degree in in patristics or something, you know. It's pretty awesome.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, thanks.
SPEAKER_01:Of course, of course. Thank you for the question. Well, um, Michaela, we like to give our guest uh the last word um whatever whenever possible.
SPEAKER_02:I don't know. I was watching some of your videos before coming on here to just kind of prepare. And uh I don't remember which one of you said, just come and see for yourself.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Um because like I said, I came, I don't want to say I came kicking and screaming into like all of the into my walk with Christ, into the Orthodox Church. I didn't. Like once I knew and he convicted my heart, it was like, okay, this is this is the path. Um but once you come and you experience the love of Christ and you experience having a spiritual father and having a parish and this family you get to grow in. And a lot of people too, they they just consume Orthodox content online. And that's a great like first stepping stone and great introduction. I love to be the great introduction to stir curiosity, but ultimately you need to go and see for yourself.
SPEAKER_01:Amen. 100%. Yeah. Mario, Andrew, what are your what are your thoughts? What are your takeaways?
SPEAKER_00:No, totally come and see. Um, just like you said. Um, thank you for sharing your your you know, answering these questions. And um, I've I've again, I think I'm subscribed, but I haven't watched tons of your content. Now I want to go and watch all of it. Like this is you have an awesome story and awesome testimony, and um, it's exciting to see where you're at. Yeah, your your story really resonated with me because I've been through a lot of things in my life. Um, you know, even like uh demonic encounters and different spiritual things that I'm just like I haven't really shared. Jeremy doesn't even know this that I've been through these different things, so it was really encouraging hearing you uh talk about these things.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, Jeremy. That's some good content for the future.
SPEAKER_01:There we go. There's our next episode right there, guys.
SPEAKER_02:It does, yes.
SPEAKER_01:All right, awesome. Uh Michaela, thank you so much for joining us. Um, and thank you for listening this long to Cloud of Witnesses. It's been a wonderful opportunity. We've had uh Michaela Nikolenko, and I hope I'm not butchering the name too much. Um, you can find her and her uh channel um over on Raised and Redeemed um easily over on YouTube. And Michaela, you've got Instagram and all the all the things, correct?
SPEAKER_02:Yep, I'm everywhere.
SPEAKER_01:Perfect.
SPEAKER_02:Besides X, I don't know how to work X, so I'm not there.
SPEAKER_01:We're there, but I don't there's not it seems like it's its own world. Uh we haven't really broken into X much either. Got great. Well, uh God bless you. We wish you a Merry Christmas, happy nativity. Uh Christ is born, and um, we look forward to um seeing you on the next one. Thanks again. Bye-bye.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you.
SPEAKER_01:Look at that, you made it to the end. Thank you so much for sticking around. We hope that you enjoyed this episode. I sure did. Please leave your comments down below. Let us know what you think. Don't forget, right now at our Patreon, search Cloud of Witnesses over at Patreon. You will find this episode completely uncut, unedited, in its full form, and you get all the fun stuff. I think we talked for literally about an hour and 15, 20 minutes or so. Um, so there's a lot there, and it's for our Patreons. We thank you so much for your support. Literally, you helped keep us going by God's grace. Um, he works through people, and we're glad to say that he's working through you. We hope to see you on the next one. Goodbye, God bless, and Merry Christmas. Bye-bye.
SPEAKER_02:You know, God bless, because the men being the spiritual leaders of the household, it's kind of okay if it works like that and they meet a woman who loves Christ and maybe she's not Orthodox yet. Like, okay, so she'll come your, you know, like she can grow in this direction. So it's more easy to lead a woman in that, I would say. So I think that's okay that it's mostly men. I think God bless for the women out there who love Christ all over the world. Um, but secondly, being a female in the Orthodox Christian online space, I am also seeing a lot of women. They're coming to my page and they're interested in orthodoxy as well. Um, I pray that they're not just online. I pray they're actually going to an Orthodox church in person as well. But being a part of a big parish, I also see a lot of young single Orthodox Christian women as well. Um, do you want me to share what I shared with you about the dating side of it?
SPEAKER_01:Please do, please do.
SPEAKER_02:So what the feedback I'm hearing from these girls mostly is that the Orthodox men, there's they're meeting in church. They're not interested in dating because they seem very young spirited.
SPEAKER_01:Listen up, Mario. This is important. This is what you and I talked about. I was telling Michaela over cigars yesterday. You and I had this conversation. Michaela, continue.
SPEAKER_02:Yes. And so while there may be like a bunch of young Orthodox men, none of them quite give off that husband potential for the girls I'm speaking to. Like they seem very young, like they want to go running every Saturday with the boys and like be with the boys and not like, you know, pursue a woman.
SPEAKER_00:Mario's dead right now. No, totally. I feel like all the guys they they, you know, they're in this space where they meet a lot of like-minded other young men, right? And they kind of just all kind of congregate to each other and they just want to all hang out with each other and they all kind of um affirm each other in in a in a way, um, instead of like encouraging to go out and try to meet this person or this person, or even go try to achieve some different goals and different things they they have. Um it's it's it's difficult, you know. I and I'm I'm I'm a single man as well. I'm kind of in that same space, you know, and I'm kind of like, oh man, there's like 25 dudes here, and like the only female is the priest's wife, you know, that we're all talking to. You know.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So, so Mario, uh Michaela, I want to tell you a little bit about Mario. Mario is, he's my godson, uh, first off. Um Mario is he's he's awesome. And and as I mentioned, he he is a leader of our young adult group. Um, he really is trying to help our the young men kind of kind of pull themselves up by their bootstraps, you know, kind of like you were talking about, McKay, to become the men that he knows and he sees the potential in them. Um so so Mario, don't be shy about that. Like you're you're genuinely helping these guys.
SPEAKER_00:And he so I've been like mentoring some of the younger guys about like, hey man, like get a haircut, you know, but just look put together. Like if you look like you're put together, it looks like your life's put together. And that is attractive, you know. But if you're like I feel like a lot of dudes want to like LARP as like monastics, right? And so they're like they're just gonna look nasty and not nasty, but they're gonna they're gonna look how dirty. They have a complex about them. And I've heard that. Like, no, I like I like looking kind of frumpy. And I'm like, no, you don't, you know, like you're you like your dudes like it, but you like I don't know.
SPEAKER_02:I think they're just yeah, the dudes like it.
SPEAKER_00:Exactly.
SPEAKER_02:The dudes, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So Michaela, this is I love this. I love that part of this conversation. You yourself, you are a woman, you're a married, happily married woman, and so you you've successfully done this, right? Talk to the young men out there in the Orthodox world. I want you to give your advice. What are women looking for? What are these these uh single Orthodox women? What are they seeking in men? And and what would be your advice for the young men, maybe even in our community and and the Orthodox community abroad?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, well, I'm thinking I have one single Orthodox Christian friend specifically, and she's only gone on one date with a guy at the church. So if I'm just thinking like what he had to do, um he is clean haircut, clean shaven, he has a good job. He doesn't live at home with his parents anymore. Um I mean, so okay, so it's a it's a cultural thing. Like my husband still lived with his parents until we got married because he's Ukrainian, like that's normal. Right, right, right. Um the next thing was he pursued her. Like, I think that was like the biggest thing is it's it's hard to be vulnerable and it's hard to pursue a woman. Um, but he came up to her and he is like, so like when are we getting coffee? And then she'd be like, Oh, well, I'm busy, da-da-da. But that wasn't the end-all be all. Then the next Sunday, or like they were at a young adults event, like some orthodox young adults event. And out of the name of so the way they were gonna network is you all put your name in a bucket, and so whoever's name you pull is who you're gonna network with for the evening. So he dug through the bucket and found her name and goes, Okay, so it's you and me. Like that is that is good.
SPEAKER_00:That's cool. That's smooth. That's right. That's good.
SPEAKER_02:I respect that. Like, we respect that level of effort and vulnerability. And so I think you just gotta not be afraid to put yourself out there and like get your head out of the books sometimes, like every once in a while, you know?
SPEAKER_00:That's that's great advice. Mario, what do you think? No, totally. I I I love that. Um, I think I think you again putting yourself out there more. Um, it's because it is scary, you know, especially like I mean, in this day and age, like the worst thing, we don't want to get rejected.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Right. And then feel like a loser, right? But I think I think um being able to pursue pursue a woman like that would be awesome.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. I think that there's a lot of a lot of young men um that can um benefit from from what you said, Michaela.
SPEAKER_02:Um I hope so.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, haircut. So I was hearing haircut, job job, job.
SPEAKER_00:And then maybe living with your parents, maybe not.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's not a deal for it. Not always the best book, but like you said, culturally that can be different for different people. Exactly. Um, and and assert themselves, right? I was hearing you say assert yourself.
SPEAKER_02:Assertiveness, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, be confident and and maybe take your nose out of a book from time to time. That's that's great, great, great advice.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I think men are losing that assertiveness. I think that's honestly my husband sales pitched me into marrying him. Like, I think that's how I ended up here. He was just he was assertive enough.
SPEAKER_01:Uh right, right, right, right. Great. That's so it worked, it worked there. That's great.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.