Cloud of Witnesses Radio

Is Protestant Unity Possible or Should Evangelicals & Mainline Christians Seek the Historic Church?

• Cloud of Witnesses cast and crew

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Unity sounds simple until you try to build it without a shared center. We take listeners inside the lived tension of modern Protestant life: a movement born from reform that still reforms itself into new churches, new brands, and new streams whenever conviction collides with leadership and local control. From the Reformers’ early disagreements to today’s non-denominational megachurches, hosts Jeremy Jeremiah, Mario Andrew, and Michael trace how authority, interpretation, and personality shape the health of congregations—and why splits feel inevitable when a pastor retires or launches a fresh vision down the street.

We examine why Protestant unity remains elusive, especially for Dillon Baker, host of The Protestant Gentleman, (https://www.youtube.com/@theprotestantgentleman/videos) how non-denominational structures fuel repeated splits, and why so many seekers turn to older, historic forms of Christianity. We share lived stories, weigh online apologetics trends, and offer practical next steps rooted in church history.

• the claim that Protestantism functions as serial reformations
• structural fragility in non-denominational leadership models
• real case of a founding pastor splitting a congregation
• growth versus true flourishing in church life
• online apologetics momentum and confidence gaps
• questions to test practice against early Christian history
• counsel to study church history before choosing a church
• invitation to explore Orthodox parishes as a concrete step

Along the way, we unpack a candid story of a founding pastor pushed to retire who planted a new church and took half the congregation, and we ask what that choice demands of ordinary people. Are they comparing preaching styles, or discerning which community is more biblically faithful? We zoom out to the online apologetics landscape where prominent voices admit Protestants are “losing” the debate on history and continuity. That candor points to a deeper hunger: believers want a faith that is ancient, coherent, and recognizable across centuries, not just persuasive proof texts. The guiding question becomes, Where have Christians practiced this?

We offer a practical path forward. Start with church history: the first centuries, the councils, the formation of canon, and the worship life that carried the Gospel through persecution and empire. Test present practices against the witness of the early Church. Many seekers find themselves drawn to Eastern Orthodoxy for its conciliar authority, sacramental life, and stable doctrine—less an escape from Scripture than a home where Scripture, tradition, and worship live together. Whether you remain Protestant or explore Orthodoxy, you’ll leave with sharper questions, clearer criteria, and a stronger sense of what flourishing looks like beyond weekly attendance numbers.

If this conversation helps you or someone you love, share it with a friend, subscribe for future episodes, and leave a review with the biggest question you’re wrestling with right now. Your voice shapes where we go next.

Questions about Orthodoxy? Please check out our friends at Ghost of Byzantium Discord server: https://discord.gg/JDJDQw6tdh

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Please leave a comment with your thoughts!

SPEAKER_02:

That's why I like I'm so big when I'm talking, especially non-denominational Protestants. I'm like, where where has where have Christians practiced that? When have we ever done that?

SPEAKER_01:

I I really don't know if like the traditional Protestants, the Reformed, the Lutheran Calvins, are really ever going to agree with the Anabaptists. Like it's been, they've been at odds for basically the whole Reformation.

SPEAKER_00:

Protestantism really wasn't just one reformation, it's just a series of reformations. Wow. It's each time it's just another reforming. Yeah. And they eventually break off into different groups.

SPEAKER_03:

Protestantism is at a crossroads, I think, in many ways.

SPEAKER_02:

Pastor's been there for like over 30 years, right? He started that church. He's older now, and they're calling him to retire. But he's not ready to retire. We're leaving their faith to come to orthodoxy. So they're kind of pushing him out. I guess what he did. Started his own church. It took half of the congregation.

SPEAKER_03:

Hi, Jeremy Jeremiah here, Cloud of Witnesses team. I am really excited about this video today. We've got planned for you. We got Mario, Andrew, and Michael were reacting to a video of Dylan Baker, uh, who is a Protestant leaving the non-denominational world. And he's talking with a couple of other Protestants. The issues today are, you know, what is Protestantism? What's its problem right now? It's going through some major, major issues. A lot of people are questioning the foundations of Protestantism. And many, many, many Christians are looking now for a more historic, a more rooted, a more ancient practice to the Christian faith. Without further ado, please enjoy.

SPEAKER_01:

My heart and my passion is unity in the Protestant church. That's what I want more than anything. I think that that's the only way you can survive. Any organization. Like it doesn't matter if it's a business, it doesn't matter if it's a country, it doesn't matter if it's a church. It needs unity.

SPEAKER_03:

So he's calling for unity, right? And I follow Dylan Baker. I follow his stuff. He's a really genuine guy. Him and I have talked a little bit over Instagram. Um, I think he's gonna come on Cloud of Witnesses at some point. We've talked about it. He his heart's call is to unify Protestantism. And it's a valiant call, and I understand why he feels that way. But I've said it to him before, I'll say it again here.

SPEAKER_01:

Protestantism cannot be unified. We must actually be on the same team. And the non-denominational world, it's every single corner has a completely different structure.

SPEAKER_03:

Because it is structurally built on a system that leads to bifurcation, bifurcation, bifurcation. He even said it there. Luther didn't agree with Calvin, Calvin didn't agree with Luther on everything, Luther and Calvin didn't agree with Zwingli on i etc. And that was at the beginning. And it's just gone on and on and on.

SPEAKER_00:

So I feel like he's uh fighting an uphill battle to say the least. I don't know how uh accurate this is to say, but it seems like to me that Protestantism really wasn't just one reformation, it's just a series of reformations. Wow, it's each time it's just another reforming, yeah. And they eventually break off into different groups. So I think that's kind of the root of the issue with Protestantism is starting from the Protestant Reformation, you eventually get a series of a bunch of reformations, one right after another. And like you said, like all of these major pastors aren't talking to each other because unfortunately their church is centered around them. And a lot of these churches don't survive um when their pastor retires or anything like that.

SPEAKER_03:

It's been 500 years now, and that's the model we've seen. I love that idea of one reformation to the the other. Sorry, we got Pippin barking in the background, uh, no worries.

SPEAKER_00:

Stay and try to reform their non-denominational church. Should they flee? Where should they go? What should they do? Who do they study?

SPEAKER_03:

They're not to blame themselves because they're usually well-intentioned. And to use your language, Mike, I think that that idea of reforming. Hey, my buddy just started a new church, and guess what? You know, we're gonna focus on scripture even more. We're gonna have prayer groups every Monday and Wednesday night. You know, we're gonna do outreach in downtown, you know, and feed the homeless. They got all these ideas and it's new and it's exciting. It's a reformation, right? That's why that new church is starting. See, but I don't think it's always that though.

SPEAKER_02:

Like I have a buddy of mine who um his family goes to a non-denominational church, and the pastor's been there for like over 30 years, right? He started that church, he's older now, and they're calling him to retire, but he's not ready to retire. Wow. So they're kind of pushing him out. And guess what he did? Started his own church and took half of the congregation. And this just happened. This just happened. And he took half of the congregation with him because he was like, I'm not ready to retire.

SPEAKER_03:

Right. And and I, you guys, I feel so bad for those congregants because they're being put in this situation where they're choosing between, well, which one has the better interpretation of scripture? I think I think is what they're asking themselves, right? Hopefully, right? Which one is more biblically faithful? Hopefully. Hopefully, they're asking them. Exactly, which often happens, right? And so you have yet another branch added to the Protestant tree, which can just continues to flower, uh, and I would say not flourish, you know. He I want to pose something at you guys quickly. Dylan asked the question in a or states in the beginning, he said denomin non-denominationalism will either continue to flourish and grow, or he said, or it's gonna die out completely.

SPEAKER_01:

I truly think the non-denominational world will either get much bigger somehow, like they'll either like continue to flourish and it America will do its thing and like the consumerism aspect of church, or it'll just completely die out. Um but I don't think it'll die out.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I don't think it'll die out either. Um it it'll probably continue to grow in some ways, but I guess like you said, you know, they're not necessarily flourishing. So even if they're growing, it's not necessarily flourishing in the in the sense that we would consider it, you know, like being in in uh in the church that Christ established.

SPEAKER_03:

Right, 100%. I I think at least if you know if the online world is any indication, they're hurting, right?

SPEAKER_01:

Uh pastors don't speak to each other, and there's no organizational unity. And as I'm explaining this, I understand how hard that is. I know I pick on these guys quite a bit, but like a Stephen Furtick or a Michael Todd or a Joel Osteen, those those typical people that we think is like the front of the pack for the non-denominational world, there is just no conversation whatsoever of coming together as a denomination or ever thinking about being with the main lines.

SPEAKER_03:

Protestantism is at a crossroads, I think, in many ways. Why do I say that? I say that because every Sunday we see at our parish the line of people who are leaving their faith to come to orthodoxy, many of them out of the evangelical world, whether it's non-denominational or you know, a number of them. Um, but I you and you see it online, right? You see with Dylan's story, these guys, they're asking these questions because they see the problems.

SPEAKER_02:

And then you have people like Gavin Ortland being like, We need, we need more people. Get online, we're we're losing this battle.

SPEAKER_03:

Yes, we need help, please. Good point, Mario. And you know, Austin Suggs Gospel of Simplicity said the same thing. He actually has a video on it. He said Protestants are losing. Well, it's something like the online apologetics, apologetics battle, like they're losing. Yeah, um, yeah, that's fascinating. So I agree. I don't think non-denominationalism will ever die out. Why? Because humans are prone to sin and they're prone to egotism. And like you said, Mar, there's always gonna be that guy who's gonna be like, I think the Bible says this, so I'm gonna do a church that does this, you know, much to the chagrin of the rest of the world.

SPEAKER_01:

I I really don't know if like the traditional Protestants, the Reformed, the Lutheran Calvins, are really ever going to agree with the Anabaptists. Like it's been, they've been at odds for basically the whole Reformation.

SPEAKER_03:

What's your advice for these two young men that Dylan was talking to? Or and or Dylan, what's your advice? We'll close it out that way.

SPEAKER_00:

I mean, the the simplest, most straightforward advice would be find an Orthodox Church. Amen.

SPEAKER_03:

Amen.

SPEAKER_00:

Find an Orthodox Church near you today.

SPEAKER_02:

There you go. Can't go wrong with that. Yeah, can't go wrong. Yeah. Um, I would say like I like the the what the route I went, right, is I went I I saw my church progressing. So I was like, I need to look back. I need to see where where where Christianity started. Right. And so that's when I started looking into church history, you know, and I think that's why like I'm so big when I'm talking, especially non-denominational Protestants. I'm like, where where where has where have Christians practiced that? When have we ever done that? You know, and they're like, ah, all these traditions, it's in the Bible. And I'm like, okay, like I can see your how you can see that is being in the scriptures, but where did the Christians do that throughout history? You know, so for me, I would say look look at a church history, look at uh where where why your church does what it does, why you do what it what you do, and where that started. Because it might not be from the Bible, it might not be in 33 AD when church established, excuse me, when Jesus Christ established his church. It might be in the 20th century, the 21st century. Yeah, yeah. Well put, well put.

SPEAKER_03:

All right. Thank you for listening this long to Cloud of Witnesses. We hope to see you on the next one. Bye-bye. Hey, look at that. You made it to the end. Awesome. Thank you so much for sticking around. We hope that you enjoyed this episode. Let us know your thoughts. Leave it down below. Let's have a conversation about these issues. I myself am a former Protestant, as you saw. Everyone on this panel today in this video are former Protestants. If you're a Protestant and you're curious about orthodoxy and you want to understand what's the difference, and aren't they weird, and don't they, you know, basically just believe what Catholics believe, come, ask your questions, find an Orthodox church near you today. So, in closing, if you are interested in supporting Cloud of Witnesses, please go check out our Patreon. Um, it is the number one way um in which this channel can stay afloat uh and continue to pay for the various equipment and licenses that are required for software that we use every single day, bringing you this type of content. We hope that you find it enjoying, but most importantly, edifying and bringing you closer to Christ. We'll see you on the next one. God bless.