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Cloud of Witnesses Radio
Foundations of Your Faith: Would The Early Church Fathers Recognize Your Form of Christianity?
What if reverence isn’t a feeling you chase, but a reality you enter?
This episode follows a grateful former Protestant named Michael from his upbringing all the way to a first Divine Liturgy in a small Orthodox chapel on a military base in Okinawa—and the quiet discoveries that happened along the way. Join Cloud of Witnesses hosts Jeremy Jeremiah and Mario Andrew as we move through warm family memories, the culture shock of military life, and the slow drift that happens when belief outruns practice. Then the trail turns: an old-school YouTube series on church history, the Jordan River baptismal site, a striking painting of confession, and even a meme about the Theotokos—little breadcrumbs pointing toward something older, deeper, and strangely familiar.
What we explore (without the debate club tone):
Icons, saints, Mary—through the Incarnation: not add-ons, but practices that flow from God made flesh and the Church’s unbroken life.
A reframing question: instead of “Were the early Fathers really Christians?” try “Would they recognize our faith as theirs?” That single question reshapes how we think about worship, authority, sacraments, and belonging to a parish that actually forms us.
Worship reimagined: the first Liturgy lands as awe-filled, ordered, communal—not performance or preference but the Church at prayer.
Accountability & spiritual fatherhood: why guidance matters when culture pulls hard—and how confession, obedience, and community keep us real.
Vocation with roots: plans for law school and faithful presence in public life, now steadied by a tradition that tells you who you are.
Gratitude without amnesia: love for Scripture and prayer received in Protestant homes, alongside honesty about what felt missing—continuity, reverence, and a daily rule of life.
If you’ve felt restless—church-hopping, yearning for weight and continuity—this conversation offers a gentle map: the ancient path is not a museum; it’s a living way that teaches hearts to pray, minds to think with the Church, and bodies to worship with all the senses.
Listen & share. If this resonates, subscribe and send to a friend who’s searching. In your review, tell us the one question you’d ask the early Church—what would you hope they recognize in your faith?
Questions about Orthodoxy? Please check out our friends at Ghost of Byzantium Discord server: https://discord.gg/JDJDQw6tdh
Please prayerfully consider supporting Cloud of Witnesses Radio: https://www.patreon.com/c/CloudofWitnesses
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Please leave a comment with your thoughts!
And that Tuesday when we walked in the class every week we both voted together like you go to TV.
SPEAKER_00:So let's talk about that video series? Yeah. This book? He recommends this book. And it's why I bought this book because of that video series.
SPEAKER_02:The question can kind of sting, I think, for some Protestants is the question is not, were the early Chr early church fathers Christians from your view. The question is, would the early church fathers look at what you're doing and say, this is the same faith that we have.
SPEAKER_01:And the priest was so nice, I wish I knew his name. I remember exactly what he looked like. But he would do the liturgy and then he would be just sleeping there.
SPEAKER_00:As a Calvinist Protestant, there was something so touching about this image of this man who clearly has gone to confession and is looking for absolution. And clearly something happens he didn't get it.
SPEAKER_02:I'm a Christian, but what kind of Christian am I? Because you start to look around at different churches and there's a whole range of options out there to get which kind of forced me into answering this question of what kind of Christian am I?
SPEAKER_00:Thank you for being here right now. Please like, subscribe, click that bell if you want to be up to date on all the new content we have coming your way. We got a great video planned for you. We hope to see you at the end. If you want more, we have the entire uncut, unedited video over at our Patreon available right now.
SPEAKER_02:I was born into a very Christian household. I was raised um in a non-denominational church. And I will always be extremely grateful for what I got out of that. Um, what the non-denominational, more Protestant tradition gave me. Um, a love for the scripture, a love for prayer.
SPEAKER_00:Amen.
SPEAKER_02:Um, and so that really kind of built a foundation for me uh that would later kind of lead me to where I am today. But yeah, I was born and and raised in a in a very Christian household. So that was that was really important for me, really foundational. Awesome. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I I want to ask, we're we're approaching Thanksgiving.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um what were what were Thanksgiving's like growing up? What are some of your key memories? Um thinking about that.
SPEAKER_02:Thanksgiving were awesome. They were the whole family would come over to uh to my parents' house and we would just have everybody extended family, you know, it is a pretty big family. You know, I have um I'm the youngest of five, so you know, and we had you know other other family members coming as well. So yeah, they were you know extremely fond memories for sure.
SPEAKER_00:Were would you consider those events Christian? Were you guys were you guys focused on the the actual being thankful part? Was there prayer? What was that like?
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely, yeah. Prayer was a huge part of our of our household, and Thanksgiving was a for you know for us it was really a Christian holiday. You know, it's it's obviously turned into something else like a lot of the other holidays uh have been secularized. But for us, yeah, it was it was a Christian holiday to be grateful for for what we have.
SPEAKER_00:Amen. Amen. Mario, I'm curious. You you say was it Thanksgiving? I mean, it was not really Christian for me.
SPEAKER_01:Not so much, no. It was turkey and us getting together. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we would say what we're thankful for, right? But it definitely was not a religious holiday from for myself, but you, Jeremy.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's interesting. Like I long now for what you describe, right? Because me growing up, Mario, I think it may be more akin to what you experienced. If I'm being real about it, Thanksgiving for us as a family, we were big Detroit Lions fans. Yeah. And it's like the one time of the year when the Detroit was on TV. So for me, and you know, and don't get me wrong, it was wonderful times, family, these are bonding experiences. How are you a Detroit? It's a long story. It's a long story.
SPEAKER_02:Um, well, we we had some of that too. We, you know, we did you know turkey and football and all of that. I hear you.
SPEAKER_00:It wasn't just sitting around singing kumbaya. No, not at all. Not at our story. And and and to be fair as well, I mean, we always would pray as well. Yeah. Um, you know, and and as a family and say, maybe even say something we're thankful for and all that. But I agree with you, is holidays in general in America, that's a whole other topic. That's another episode, right? So, okay, so Michael, so that's interesting. So you grew up in a Christian home. Um high school is often very difficult. I know it was for me. Um did looking back on those years and maybe even going into college, was your faith always front and center? Did you struggle? Did you ever question your faith? Was there any moments of that type of thing?
SPEAKER_02:Growing up, faith was front and center for me pretty much the whole time as a kid. Um, I was actually homeschooled uh most of the time.
SPEAKER_03:Oh wow.
SPEAKER_02:As a as a kid, uh my mom homeschooled me and and all my brothers and sisters until high school. And then we went to a private private Christian school for high school. So even throughout high school, I was still having that you know Christian influence on my life. And for that time period, it was still a really, really important part of my life for me. But I also, ever since I was a little kid, I had a dream of joining the joining the military, specifically the Marine Corps. I actually remember um when I was a young kid, I don't know if you guys have ever seen these old commercials from like the 90s of the guy who's like he climbs the mountain and he gets to the top of the cliff and becomes a Marine. Yeah, I saw those when I was like a little kid, and I was like, that's exactly what I want to do.
SPEAKER_01:My my mom used to tell me I used to tell her the old army commercials. I used to always make it want to be a soldier. And so I used to tell her, I want to be all I can be, which was the old army slogan that wow.
SPEAKER_00:See, nowadays we would look back on that and say, Man, that see, that was a CIA. Yeah, and you guys bought in my secret. Yeah, but it's true. I remember that marketing, and it was it was very attractive, you know. Um, that's that's amazing. And so, Michael, you did, you did follow that math.
SPEAKER_02:Um yeah, I joined the Marine Corps when I was 17 years old. Wow, I graduated high school at 17 and went off to boot camp, had my 18th birthday, I think the sixth day of boot camp. I was just kind of like, what's going on, what people are doing, what people are into. It's just it pulls you away into another world.
SPEAKER_01:I had a similar experience when I was in the military. Like it's it's not that you abandon your faith. It's just you get so caught up in what everyone else is doing that you're you're participating in that, right? That it's like, oh, my life's kind of going bad. I should go to church. That's always for me. You know, I always knew like, oh me, Google Church. All right, cool. Showed up on Sunday and got plugged in there.
SPEAKER_00:Can I tell an anecdotal story? Yeah, of course. Um, because again, you know, I don't have any military experience. Um I was in a band in high school, you know, typical garage band. You know, we made music and stuff. Did you have long hair? No, not long, not long hair. Never had enough of it. Um but but I played drums and we had a blast. But our lead singer um ended up joining the Marines. Well, he was very similar. We were kind of a not really a Christian band, but we had something we called rule number one. And rule number one of our band was because one of our guys was was LDS, it was no cussing. So we had no cussing in any of our songs. Well, this lead singer, we called him Elevator, he went into the Marines. We will never forget he the first time we saw him out of boot camp, he was smoking a cigarette, he was cussing like crazy every other word, and we kept going, rule number one, rule number one. And he all he would say is, I can kill a man in three seconds. So, with my ridiculous story, even though that's it's true, we well, my point is I he changed so much. So much. Now, I don't want to blame the military for that, but it sounds like what you guys are describing is something like it's hard. It'd be hard to remain faithful and to keep your practice going strong.
SPEAKER_02:It is hard, it's definitely hard. And it's not to say that there aren't any Christians in there. There are plenty, you know, there are a lot of Christians, but I think it's just the the nature of the job is such that it is it is difficult to maintain a strong, active, faithful life while you're yeah, while you're doing that job. Yeah, interesting.
SPEAKER_00:And Mario, are you according to that? Oh, that was similar. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think I think um it's you have to actively like you have to be active in being telling people like, no, I'm a Christian, and I'm not gonna do that. I'm not gonna live the military life. Because there is a there is a lifestyle, it's a culture, yeah. You know, so you have to kind of be anti-culture to the military, I think, in a in a way, you know, because not again, not saying that there aren't Christian military members, right? You know, but especially when you're 20 years old. I joined when I was 20. Yeah um, you know, to be anti whatever culture I'm a part of, I just didn't have the backbone for it. I just kind of rode the wave.
SPEAKER_00:Sure, you know. So uh I want to pose a question to you. You because you were a Protestant when you were in the military, but in this these early years here. Yeah. Just kind of guessing. Had you been Orthodox And ask me very honestly, no right or wrong answer. Do you think anything would have been different?
SPEAKER_02:I think the challenges would still be there for sure. The challenges would be the same. And maybe there are Orthodox Christians who join and kind of end up in a similar situation that I was in, but I honestly think it would have been much better at that point in time because orthodoxy kind of necessitates that you be an active member of a parish. You know, you can't really be completely on your own. You know, obviously there's unique situations if somebody can't get to a parish or something like that. That's that's a different thing. Right. But just kind of built into orthodoxy is like you have to be a part of a parish. Right. You know, so I think maybe that would have helped me um just remain a little bit more connected to the church at that point.
SPEAKER_00:Interesting.
SPEAKER_01:Mario, what do you what do you think? No, I I agree. Actually, it's funny, actually, when you said that it brought hope in me because I feel like I'm so like, yeah, I don't know if I would have been a good Christian like as an Orthodox Christian, but you're so right. Like to be Orthodox Christian, you have to be you're held accountable to the church, you know, and so I think life probably would have been better. I would probably I I grew up without a father, and so I didn't have anyone to really guide me, you know. And now I have my spiritual father who really does help me and really guide me. And I feel like if I would have had that at 20 years old, I probably wouldn't have, I mean, hopefully wouldn't have made a lot of the mistakes that I did make.
SPEAKER_00:You know? Interesting, interesting. So, Michael, carry us along here. How long did this go on? And maybe at what point did you find yourself coming back to wanting to practice your faith again or what was going on? Can it can you talk to us about that?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I would say I think it was probably mid-20s or so um when I kind of started to come back to the faith a little bit. And I really think I credit it to my Christian upbringing, you know, as a Protestant, um, just having that reinforced in my mind for my entire childhood and young adult life. Yeah. That after several years of not really practicing or or you know, really living as a Christian, it was just always there in the back of my mind. And so after several years, it just kind of kept popping up to the forefront of my mind.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Which made me then start to ask the questions of like, you know, if I am going to get involved in the church again and try to start living a Christian life, what does that actually look like for me? What like how do I find a good church and you know, become a part of that? So I I then started asking questions like, well, I'm a Christian, but what kind of Christian am I? Because you start to look around at different churches and there's a whole range of options out there, which kind of forced me into answering this question of what kind of Christian am I? Um, so I started trying out a bunch of different Protestant churches, you know, I'd say at some for maybe a few weeks or a few months, but bounced around a whole bunch for I don't know, maybe maybe two or three years or so, where I was just kind of trying different things out.
SPEAKER_00:Do you mind like what types of churches were you?
SPEAKER_02:I went to I went through a period of time where I was going to like different charismatic churches, charismatic type churches. I was into that for a while, but then I kind of ping-ponged to the opposite end and was going to churches that were very much like um the opposite of that, and they're kind of very dry and intellectual, you know. So I was kind of just bouncing back and forth from one to the other, just trying to figure out like what made sense. You were searching. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Definitely.
SPEAKER_01:And and why while you were in um where were you living at? Like saying you move around, were you in different cultural like so during this period of time?
SPEAKER_02:I was stationed at Camp Pendleton in near San Diego, California. So I was actually stationed there for 10 years, um, which is pretty uncommon. You know, normally normally you move around a lot, but you were blessed. Yes, yes, I was. That's like the coveted place to be stationed for Marines. And I was, yeah, I was fortunate enough to be there for 10 years. So um, this was all happening there. You know, I was like searching around different Protestant churches in the Southern California area, and you know, I had some deployments in there and things like that too. Um yeah, I think after that period of time, that couple of years there in like my mid-20s, I kind of got to the point where I was just like, I don't really know. Like, I don't know where I belong, like where I fit into this Protestant world. Um, so I kind of fell back into where I was at the first few years that I was in the Marine Corps. I was like, well, I'm still a Christian completely. Like I don't reject any of that at all.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:But again, just wasn't really going to church, wasn't really practicing at all. And I just I I don't want to say I gave up necessarily, but I just didn't know where to go from there.
SPEAKER_00:Sure. Can we talk about that a little bit? Because this is this is interesting, and this is kind of the theme, it seems like, you know, recently that we've been talking about, cloud witnesses have been talking about, etc. To me, what I hear in this, because it reminds me a lot of when I was a Protestant as well, and I did plenty of church searching myself back in the day. I used to say all the time, I'm a believer. Even though I hadn't stepped in church in a long time, I couldn't tell you the last time you know I did anything meaningful in my faith. Sometimes for long stretches. But I thought I was a believer because I believed. And I think now as an Orthodox Christian, I look back on that and I don't I don't even think I was a Christian. I I was showing no fruit, nothing, other than in my head, and maybe once in a while I might, you know, thank you, Jesus, for something, you know. Can you talk about that? Is does any of that resonate?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it definitely does. I think there's there's a difference between just being a believer and being a doer of something. You know, in in Protestantism, it's like, well, as long as you believe, as long as you have prayed the sinner's prayer, as long as you have accepted Christ in your life, you're saved, you're a believer. You're at that point, you're kind of good. You know, and so it's like as much as like the experience I had in other Protestants too, where you like want to get involved in a church, you want to participate and practice the faith a little bit more. The problem is it's kind of just an add-on, it's a nice to have for the Protestant belief system, right? Um and so it kind of allows people like myself to be in that position where you can just kind of get into this point where you're like, well, I am a Christian, whether I'm a part of a church community or not. Or not. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Exactly. And and there's that other side of it, right? Because, like you said, you were searching for a long while. You said several years where you were kind of, well, or a few years at least, where you were going from church to church, sometimes at a church for several weeks, sometimes for several months, or whatever it was. That's that kind of that conundrum. On one hand, you probably believed very wholeheartedly, hey, you're a Christian, man, you're a believer, whether you go to church or not. I loved how you put that, but then there was this other part of you that wanted or knew maybe deep down, there's gotta be more than this, right? I should go to church. I should, I don't know, whatever it was for you, go to Bible study or this or that. So take us forward. Where where's this journey go?
SPEAKER_02:So, yeah, I kind of fell back into that same situation of I'm a Christian, but wasn't really at a church or practicing. And then um actually something kind of interesting happened where I had no idea that it was relevant at all when it happened. I ended up in Jordan in the military. We went there to to do some training, but we had some time to kind of go and like um drive around and check out some different historical sites. So we actually ended up going to the baptismal site of Christ um on the Jordanian side, wow, which was really cool. Yeah, and there's actually a Greek Orthodox church right there by the by the site in Jordan. And we're like a part of this um guided tour kind of a thing. Yeah, they're showing you around. And we ended up going into that church. Um, you know, I took some pictures, but I had no idea what it was. I had never heard of Orthodoxy. I don't even know if they mentioned that it was an Orthodox church. Like in my mind as a Protestant at the time, I'm just thinking, like, oh, this is like a cool old church, yeah. You know, and so I leave there, it was like a cool experience, but I didn't still didn't know anything about Orthodoxy, um, which is just interesting because looking back, I'm just like, I I had no idea what that I would eventually end up converting to this faith of that church at this very cool location.
SPEAKER_00:Approximately, Michael, how long was that before you did just not to jump ahead, but what time how early was that?
SPEAKER_02:That was about two years before I actually two, two and a half years before I actually started looking into orthodoxy. Yeah, that's wild.
SPEAKER_03:That's amazing. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. So that happened. I had no idea that it was significant at all at the time. But um, and then there was just other little things along the way as well. Um, I remember just seeing a picture somewhere online. I don't even remember what it was. I think it was a picture of a bishop, of an Orthodox bishop, and the caption said that he was an Orthodox bishop. But I as a Protestant I had never heard of Orthodoxy still, didn't know what it was. I remember seeing it and just being like, oh, that must just be some kind of weird Catholic or something. Like, I don't know what this is. But it was just it was just like another thing that kind of like was it somewhere in the back of my mind.
SPEAKER_01:As a cormon, um, I actually went to an Orthodox liturgy every Sunday.
SPEAKER_02:Really?
SPEAKER_01:But not for the right reasons. I went there because nobody went to them. And it was the I wanted to get away from everyone, right? That was so annoying. You live you live with people for two months. Yeah. And I was like, where's nobody going? Oh, no one's going to this Orthodox liturgy. I'm gonna go there. And the priest was so nice. I wish I knew his name. I remember exactly what he looks like. But he would do the liturgy and then he would let me just sleep in there. He would just let me like lay down in the chairs and I would sleep until 2 p.m. and he would wake me up and be like, hey, you have to go back to your barracks. And I'd be like, oh, okay. But I literally would go to the Orthodox liturgy. Not knowing that 10 years later I'd be an Orthodox Christian.
SPEAKER_00:That's kind of a beautiful story, Mario. It really is. Yeah. To think of you there in that place, and you slept there, you found rest there, you found solace there. And I love the way that priest sounds like the way he treated you, Mario, is in many ways how you carry your faith to this day. Like you said, you're not arguing with people. He wasn't like, brother, you need to, you know, come over. He was just kind to you and he gave you that space. That's a beautiful story, man.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and then uh one other one was like a I saw a meme. It was a photo of like, it was like poorly drawn, like of the Theotokos, and then the other one was like a strongly drawn Theotokos, and it was like the Protestant Virgin Mary, and then the the Orthodox Virgin Mary, and it was like like it just it it said like all these things that the the way that the Protestants view the Virgin Mary, right? And just how like not like dope she is versus the Orthodox Virgin Mary is like she's like amazing, obedient, the first Christian, you know, birth God, you know, and it's like, oh man, like she's awesome. I remember I saved the meme. I was a Calvinist, I don't know why I did, but I was just like, this is this is like so cool, yeah. You know, and so I just remember that was like another thing is is the Theotokos. That's awesome.
SPEAKER_00:Can I share mine?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:It's right here. Ironically, it's right here. This this is the cover. I'm not Mario, is this a good spot to see it? Yeah, this is the cover of Fyodor Dostoevsky's The Brothers Karamazov. And I read this as a Calvinist. I was studying philosophy at UCLA, Calvinist, hardcore Calvinist, reading this, right? Not because, again, I didn't know about orthodoxy, but this painting, it's a painting by a famous Russian uh artist named Repin, and it's called the Confession. No, excuse me, the rejected confession. And this is a it's been used a lot, but if go look this up, I encourage you to look up this beautiful painting. As a Calvinist Protestant, there was something so touching about this image of this man who clearly has gone to confession and is looking for absolution, and clearly something happens, he didn't get it or something, right? But it's this dynamic, beautiful imagery that I yearned, I longed for it. It's another reason why I continue to dive into this book and this story. And looking back, it's like I didn't know it. I would have never wanted confession, you know, then as a Calvinist. But there was something about the beauty of orthodoxy and the power of orthodoxy that I now see was one of those first few little seeds that was pulling me in. So thanks for sharing that. That's really, really great, Michael. You were going to say um kind of where you were picking up.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so at this point in time, this is close to 2020. And so in 2020, I ended up getting stationed in Okinawa, Japan. Wow. Uh, for three years. And so COVID. Yeah. Right during that time period. And so it was shortly before that that I like, you know, seen this picture of an Orthodox bishop and wasn't really sure what it was, but it kind of was in my mind for some reason because I hadn't really heard of orthodoxy. So in the back of my mind, I was kind of like, I I kind of wonder what that is. Yeah. So I get out to Okinawa, Japan, and when you get there and you're checking in, you get, you know, all these sheets and binders, check-in, check-in material. And a part of that is kind of like here's all the resources that you have um available to you on base. And so, you know, being a Christian, I was kind of curious about like what the different churches that were there would be like, and on there it had an Orthodox chapel. And so I was like, well, that's interesting. So like it's kind of come up a couple times, so I want to look into it a little bit more. And Mario was sleeping in it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I walked in, Mario passed out of it. And uh, so I started just, you know, like I said, trying to find videos on YouTube, and I found this one series. I wish I could remember the the name of the YouTube channel. It's a church in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. Okay. It's a very it's like from the early 2000s. It's like an eight-part series. Each one is like two hours long. Yep. And it's called The Church That Jesus Built.
SPEAKER_00:Uh, I think I know exactly.
SPEAKER_02:And I started that series and I just binged the whole thing. I think it's like 16 hours or so, and I like couldn't stop watching it.
SPEAKER_00:Is it the one where there's the whiteboard?
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, and he draws, he talks about church history. I know exactly what you're talking about.
SPEAKER_02:Subdeacon, I want to say Elijah. I could be wrong, but I can't remember either, but I know the series. Yes, it's awesome.
SPEAKER_00:It's a blessing that it's there.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. And I binged that whole thing, and I was just like I hadn't made the decision to be orthodox yet. I it was way too soon for that. But when I watched that whole thing, I was there was just something that I was like, I think this is something I really need to get serious about looking into. But at the same time, I was just like, there's something here that I have never felt or experienced before. And the I think the only words to describe it are reverence. I don't think my Protestant background, the the churches that I went to, they're not trying to be irreverent, but I don't think they really know what reverence is until you've been to a divine literature.
SPEAKER_00:Amen.
SPEAKER_02:Amen. And it was awe, like it was just like this totally different way of approaching God. That like we're in awe of who he is and what he's done, and we're approaching it very, very seriously and very reverently. So even though it was disorienting and and I didn't know what was going on, I was like, there's something very special here. So that was my first divine liturgy, it was in Okinawa, Japan. Wow, actually. So I um in in a in a little chapel on base. Yeah, there's that chapel while I was there. Um on an average Sunday, we had maybe eight, ten people in there. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I'm I'm blown away right now. I'm I'm so grateful, Michael, for you telling this. I I'm literally, and Mario will probably laugh when I say this, but as you're talking with what you were just saying, is so beautiful and so well said. I'm literally in my head going, I pray and hope my parents and my sister hear this episode because you nailed it. It's not that Protestant churches are trying to be irreverent, of course not. But they don't understand what reverence really is until you step inside a divine liturgy.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I totally agree. And I remember thinking like, oh, this is worship. Like that that word, the word worship took on a totally different meaning after my first experience of the divine liturgy. I was like, I now I feel like I've experienced worship. It's just a very different thing than than anything I had seen before.
SPEAKER_00:Wow, okay. Awesome. So you're this is 2020?
SPEAKER_02:Yes, late 2020.
SPEAKER_00:Late 2020. You're in Japan. Did well take us forward. Did this what what what'd you do then from that first divine liturgy? How what started happening?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I started talking to the priest, um, the unit chaplain, uh, the orthodox priest there, and we started meeting on a regular basis. And because, you know, despite this amazing experience I had of the divine liturgy, there were still a lot of like theological and doctrinal issues that I had to get over. Um icons were a huge one, you know, the typical Protestant objections. Icons were a huge one. Um, you know, praying to saints, the role of Mary, yeah, these sorts of things were like just so ingrained in me that that wasn't supposed to be how it was, that I still had these these um I they were kind of obstacles for me.
SPEAKER_00:Sure.
SPEAKER_02:So I had to, you know, just ask a lot of questions. And and really what I think did it for me was that this is these beliefs are in continuity with the early church. This is what the church has always believed and practiced. And that was really important for me because I I think I don't know if I would have articulated it this way as a Protestant, but thinking back, I think this is kind of an accurate way of how I would have viewed the early church when I was a Protestant. Is I would have probably would have said, you know, they had a lot of things that I disagreed with, icons, praying to saints, the sacraments, but they were still Christians. I would say they were still Christians, even though I disagree with them. But I think that's not really the right question to ask. And it can be kind of a the question can kind of sting, I think, for some Protestants is the question is not, were the early Chr early church fathers Christians from your view? The question is, would the early church fathers look at what you're doing and say, this is the same faith that we have? And so that kind of reframed the whole question for me. As I was like, I can look back and say, I disagree with them, but yes, they were Christians. Would the early fathers say you're in the church?
SPEAKER_00:And I'm just gonna stop talking and I'm just gonna let Mike Yeah, I'm just gonna let Mike cook over here for a while. Um hundred percent, man. Yeah, that's it. It's powerful.
SPEAKER_02:That thinking of it that way kind of totally changed my my perspective. And I was like, I need to get into the church that they were in.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I heard someone say just the other day, he's a famous guy. It's not Ruslan, but it's one of those other guys like that really popular Protestant podcaster. And he said, he was asked the question you know, do you believe Orthodox are Christians? And his response was I believe there are saved Christians in the Orthodox Church, but I believe they're saved in spite of the practices of the Orthodox Church. And it's like that is such a stark contrast to what you discovered, you know? Um that's that's really amazing. Is there anything you can think of? I that series, by the way. Sorry, you talked about that video series? Yeah. This book, he recommends this book, and it's why I bought this book because of that video series. Um, and if there's anyone out there, it's the Apostolic Fathers. This this actually is hard to find now, it's out of print. Um, but you can get the Apostolic Fathers anywhere, they're available free online. Um But I guess what I was trying to get at is do you recall any was there anything else that you were watching or viewing or talking with the priest or reading that stuck stood out during that time that you were like, okay, yeah, this is another shift. Like, this is like, how did you come to the breakthroughs on prayers to the saints, icons, and the teotokos?
SPEAKER_02:I think in in one sense, it was a better understanding of what the Orthodox Church actually believes about those things. Um like praying to the saints, you know, the the Protestant view is like, well, you don't need to, you can pray directly to God Himself. And the Orthodox Church, to my understanding, would say, Well, of course you can pray to God Himself. We do it all the time. Amen. But we also ask other Christians here who are still with us to pray for to pray for us. And, you know, a scriptural teaching is that the saints are not dead, they're alive in Christ.
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_02:Um so just really a better understanding of what the Orthodox Church actually teaches about these things. Uh so that's that's one thing I recommend to Protestants is I was getting a lot of I was getting a lot of information about orthodoxy from Protestants at at some points. Yes. Rather than going to listen to Orthodox Christians, priests, and so on explain the Orthodox view. Uh I think it's really important to actually go to the source. Yeah, 100%.
SPEAKER_01:And I remember seeing you, and I was like, he looks familiar. Like, and then I I didn't actually say anything to you the next week. And then the same the next Sunday, I saw you again. And then that Tuesday when we walked into class, I remember we we both looked at each other and we're like so funny.
SPEAKER_00:You you go to see you see entities, don't you?
SPEAKER_01:And that was you're like, yeah, and I was like, oh dude, this is so cool. That's right. That's right. I think we bond over the suffrage of this class because this class is not the best. It's not a good time, it's not having a good time.
SPEAKER_00:I can I can speak to that a tiny, tiny bit because it happens to be a class I've taken now, granted, at a different school, uh, but we're talking about the philosophy of law. Um, and I really enjoyed the one I was in. That's why when Mario started telling me, because he was telling me a week ago, yeah, this class is not doing it. It's it's not interesting to me. I was like, man, you're yeah, it's unfortunate. Because it could have been a great class.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Uh and that's you know, it is what it is. But um, so Michael, thank you uh for sharing your story. Uh genuinely, it it's it's powerful, and I've got no doubt that people are gonna resonate with a lot with what you said. I know I did. Um I would like to ask you two things. Uh and Mario, certainly jump in at any point. Uh one, what do you see? What's the future for you? Where do you where where where do you see you yourself in the next three to five years? And uh two, what do you want to leave our audience with? Someone who's watching this right now, what what do you want them to be taking away from this?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so the first to your first question, um, the plan is right now to attend law school. Um should make it there in 2027. So, you know, being a lawyer, that's a that's an interesting profession to get into, as you know, I'm sure. But I think we need I think we need good people in every profession. We need not just good people, we also need orthodox Christians in every aspect of of life and in society. So uh that's the plan for me right now is to attend law school. And then something I would leave everybody with is like I know as a former Protestant, I've been in that situation where you are looking for something different and you don't know, like you you said it before, you don't know what you don't know. You're searching for something, but you can't quite put your finger on it. Like, what is this church missing? What is that church missing? Why does it just not seem to quite fit right? Yeah, and I think the best answer is to go back to the beginning, like a lot of us did. Like, what did the early Christians teach? What did they believe? Right. And I think if you follow that through, like, is that's exactly what he does in that series that we're talking about. He starts at the beginning and takes you through the history of the church. And I think if you do that, you will find, like we all have, that the Orthodox Church is that church that was started in the first century, it is the fullness of the faith. There's a lot of good things that can come out of Protestantism. I'm grateful for my upbringing in the Protestant tradition and everything that it gave me. But I think unfortunately, it's just it is lacking in a lot of areas. It doesn't give you the tools to really live your Christian faith the way that it was intended to be.
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