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What Is It To Be Human: Body & Soul In Christ | Orthodoxy & the Whole Person | Dcn Anthony Part 1
What is a human—dust and breath, body and spirit—without tearing ourselves in two?
Deacon Anthony (St. Anthony the Great Orthodox Church, San Diego) joins Cloud of Witnesses with hosts Mario Andrew, Jeremy Jeremiah, and John for a rich, practical conversation on an Orthodox vision of the whole person and the mind (phronema) of the Church.
We trace a path away from the twin traps of indulgence (living by our appetites) and denial (pretending we’re already angelic), toward a fearless embrace of reality in Christ. Through Scripture, the Fathers, and stories from parish life, Deacon Anthony shows how God meets us in the tangible—mud on eyes, bread and wine, water and oil—to heal the heart and remake our lives.
In this episode you’ll hear:
- Body & Soul together: why the Incarnation means Christianity is never “purely spiritual” or “only physical.”
- The phronema (mindset) of the Church: how a Christian way of seeing reshapes what we notice, how we judge, and whom we love.
- Using God-given tools rightly: judge ourselves, not our neighbor; fear sin, not repentance; hate the illness, not the person.
- Confession as healing: real accountability, a spiritual father, and why naming sin breaks its power.
- Community over isolation: salvation is ecclesial and relational—you can’t be saved on an island.
- Heaven & hell begin now: entitlement and isolation taste like hell; humility and communion taste like heaven.
- Saints as role models: why children (and adults) need holy examples more than celebrities.
- Eucharist & the senses: why worship that engages sight, sound, smell, taste, and touch anchors faith in reality.
If “symbolic religion” has felt thin—or if modern “live-your-truth” scripts leave you empty—this conversation offers a hopeful, time-tested alternative: sacrament, repentance, and daily love that form the whole person in Christ.
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Please leave a comment with your thoughts!
Hi, welcome to Cloud of Witnesses. We are really excited and very blessed tonight, a very special episode. We're having a conversation tonight with uh Deacon Anthony from St. Anthony the Great Orthodox uh Church in San Diego, California. Um, Deacon Anthony, it's a real pleasure. I can tell you that myself and the team um has for a long time wanted to get you in that chair.
SPEAKER_00:No, thank thank you. And sorry for the delay. I made it. Oh, it's okay. Forgive me.
SPEAKER_02:Um, we're joined by some others as well. Um, I'm gonna let them introduce themselves. We got Mario Andrew back there.
SPEAKER_03:Hi, hi. I'm part of the Cloud of Witnesses team. I'm also a business student. I'm very excited to be here.
SPEAKER_02:Awesome.
SPEAKER_04:Um, my name is John, uh, and I'm a grad student. And um, I was asked to be here. So this is my first time on Cloud of Witnesses. I'm very happy to be here.
SPEAKER_02:That's very exciting.
SPEAKER_04:Um next two of us.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, exactly. So it is, it's a very special night. The topic tonight is a question um that I don't know if we'll answer completely because it's such a grand topic. But the question is what is humanity? So speaking of, if you can start us off.
SPEAKER_00:So humanity, it's I mean, it's a big topic, and there is a lot of things to cover. And this is the beauty of our faith and the beauty of God Himself. I mean, God is an infinite, and knowledge, just to even recognize where we are and what we're doing is an infinite. And we can see that in every aspect in our life. Everything has a speciality, and that speciality goes to experts, and uh it's it's a lot. I mean, uh, when we were young, we did not know that you can have so much, so many subject matter experts in this world, and it's getting more and more. Humanity is and it's very deep, and it it's all of us, and it comes if we want to understand it, we have to go back to how we are or what are humans in general, and we see that humans are creatures that were made out of dirt, out of the universe, if you want to be more specific, because God created the universe, and then out of this universe he created the earth, and out in the earth he took some dirt and just put us together, and then that physical reality that we entered the world becoming body physical, and then he gave us his breath, and we are both humans are both. We are the physical reality and we are the spiritual reality, and if we don't understand that, we don't understand what is a humanity because in that physical realm, if we go and we move forward that side, we see that humans are following their lusts or their earthly things, and we become more distant and we become more miserable, actually. And we see that a lot in in addicts. Like if you if you're an addict and you just submit yourselves, uh yourself to substance abuse, to any other abuses. I mean, I I don't want to go through them, we we lose that touch of who we are and touch of reality, actually. And at the same time, I see a lot of Christians that there is that perfection image, or if I want to say divinity image, spiritual image, that if they become expecting a lot of themselves, they also become in in uh in uh reality denial. Like for example, we are told uh some group of Christians will say, Oh, I am Christian, I should not lie, which is of course 100% true, but then we come and we believe in Christ, we get baptized, we give our life to him, and then we face reality, and then we are lying, or we're uh getting drunk, or we're doing a lot of swearing or bad things that we're not supposed to do. And some faith or some Christian doctrines will tell us, oh, you're not a really Christian if you are doing that. And what happened, we are faced into two realities. Either we become in denier, like we deny that we are doing those things, uh, or we start justifying ourselves and saying, oh, this is normal. And we do that because we are told that we're not supposed to be like this, and so it's like we become perfect in one way, or we think we are perfect, and we again, it's like we're divine, basically. If I am a Christian, if I am really Christian, I should not be doing this, so you're still doing it, but you are in denier, and this is a create a being uh that is disconnected from reality, so you see the both extreme. One side is denying that, and one side is is going too much into that. And what I love about orthodoxy and Christ is Christ did become a human being, and that divine became one of us, so he and so he will give us the chance to become like him. And in that is where is orthodoxy. Orthodoxy tells you that yes, we are human beings, but we are also need a lot of work. We are submit ourselves to Christ and our life we have to live as a Christian, but that does not mean that we are disconnected from reality. We understand completely that we are weak and that it is not who we live, it is a Christ who lives in us. And in that is where the deep of a humanity comes. It's in the understanding of both concepts coming together and working together to become as a full being, uh being grown in reality, not in anything else. It's not in one way or another, like how we say it. And that's is a is is a humanity, and then in that humanity, in that image, because in the end of the day, we are created on the image of God. And that image is a good image, it's not a bad image. And when we in in Genesis, when what happened, we we left and we abandoned God, we wanted to become more divine without God, and following our physical lusts, I mean, and you see Genesis in Genesis it says, and Eve looked at the fruit and find it good. So it there was this physical attraction to the earthly stuff, and then it says that when the serpent told Adam that uh you will be like God, and you find this divinity, and you see both sides coming together from the beginning of the story. One side wanted to go the earthly way, and one side wanted to went the divine way. But what was missing is both of them are going in each direction by itself without Christ.
SPEAKER_02:And Deacon Anthony, it's it seems to be a problem that has continued ever since then. Yes, there's always one is emphasized over the other, or one is ignored, they focus too much on the spiritual. Do you think, is it true that pretty much every major religion I can think of generally has a view that at least in some way tries to account for man's physical and spiritual nature?
SPEAKER_00:Yes, and no. I mean, you will find some religions focus more on the earthly stuff. I mean, uh, not to be specific, but for example, uh, Judaism rejected the Christ because they wanted the earthly, uh the earthly Messiah. They did not want the heavenly Messiah. And other faiths uh like rejected also Christ because he was weak, and they want someone who is very strong and very powerful and to take over the world.
SPEAKER_02:They couldn't imagine um Christ as a God who could be killed on the cross.
SPEAKER_00:Exactly. You can't they can't imagine it. He's very weak God, and that's the dialogue with other religions, and you see that like obviously, like they're like, why I will follow your weak God if he can't rule uh a bunch of people on earth, then how he will do your ruling us as all. And that's and they don't realize that the the humbleness and the humility and the love is what make us all. Because again, if God created us, all of us wants to be loved, and in that where we find the love of Christ, and then we are following him genuinely from the bottom of our hearts. That's why we have martyrs that love Christ for the sake of being with Christ, not for uh things materialistic either here or after we die, after death. And the Christian heaven also does not sound interested for some people because they will say, Why I wanna be enjoying God for eternity and then at the end of the day. I I want things more than that. So even some faith moved the physical uh reality into even spiritual reality, even after. Like they did not even stop there.
SPEAKER_02:I am curious. We've got two students here, a grad student, um, and undergrad. You guys, I'm sure, in one way or another, are confronting these things almost every day, right? In what you're being taught. John, you are are involved in poetry and literature and and and writing. Writing is constantly asking the question of what is humanity, right? Either one of you, your thoughts on are there are you guys hearing certain philosophies, certain um uh teachings that are in some ways consistent with what you're hearing Deacon Anthony say or inconsistent, or just kind of curious your thoughts?
SPEAKER_04:Um I mean, I can speak to that a little bit. I think, you know, generally speaking, in my day-to-day life, like in terms of my work and my my schooling, I try to keep that separate from the spiritual. You know, I try to keep, you know, uh myself uh kind of focused on the Orthodox teaching and not really entertain the other things. But I will say that there is something very poetic about um, you know, the aspect of humanity that uh well the the kind of privileges of humanity that God gives Adam because he gives him the ability to name, right? And the right to name and kind of the duty to. And I think that's beautiful. And I think too, um, what you were saying, Deacon Anthony, was um it reminded me a little bit of that um that part at the beginning of of uh uh John chapter nine, where um Christ is healing the man born blind. And um, you know, it's interesting because ultimately it is a very deep spiritual healing that this man experiences, but it's through the physical. Um, so Christ, you know, literally does kind of he mimics how he made man in the first place and takes the clay, you know, takes the dirt and and spits on it and makes clay and anoints his eyes. And it's such a strange and surreal image, right? Because this man is walking around with dirt caked on his face, and Christ says, Go to this pool and bathe in it. And there's nothing special about the pool. I mean, it is kind of a baptism, you know, kind of like a, but it's also like it was about the obedience, right? It was about the physical obedience that that man had to Christ that he was healed spiritually, right? Yeah um so I think that's amazing, and it shows you know, we have we have to repent and we have to be obedient in terms of our of our physical reality.
SPEAKER_00:It's funny you were saying that, Roth Funny. We were talking about this earlier today because I told them that Christ did take everything that we have and he he sanctified it, and and the church carried out the practices. Like, for example, that's why we call it mysteries. He took a piece of bread and said, This is my body, and he took a piece of drink, wine, and they said, This is my blood. And the same with the church, like so many practices that we do, it has both aspects the physical practicality and uh the spiritual practicality. And I was telling him, like even when Father, you know, he does move above the gifts, it is to show the Holy Spirit, but in the end of the day, it's also to kick out any fly because the chalices is open. And one of the time Father John was like literally, we're doing that, and the fly came and he said so it came to practice. But we did not stop this habit of doing it or the this tradition because there is no fly anymore, because it was not meant just to do the physical aspect, but it's to show both aspects together. And a lot of a lot of things in the church we do it because I mean all the things that we do have both aspects. We bring normal water and it become holy water. We take oil and become holy oil. We bring oil and wine and it become a holy unction. And it is Christ Christ can heal us without any physical touch, but that's the beauty. And the Orthodox faith is is I mean it use every aspect of our life and sanctify it and make it holy. And even even us, I mean the word holy by itself agios and in Greek is is to mean dedicated or to mean like uh set aside, and then you find like even but when in the Greek in the Greek it's very obvious. In Arabic also, you know, uh it's very obvious, but when you go to English and you see the word, for example, saint, which is uh santos in Latin, but it's argios. So when we we say Saint Anthony, for example, we still we don't say uh we say holy Anthony, agius Anthony, and it is because we believe that Anthony or Saint Anthony was fully dedicated or he was dedicated and he set aside for a Christ, and that's why we love him. We don't love him because he was a good man or a good teacher, but because he lived and he loved Christ and he gave all his life and he became a raw mother, and this is one of the aspects that very important that speaks to us as humans because again, in the humanity of us, we need raw mother, and I see that uh a lot of young kids now growing up with bad role models. I mean, once we remove like some faiths start removing science, and they're growing up without a role model. Now they're taking singers or drug addicts or like a lot of bad people to be your role model, and we need to see role models in our life, and we teach our kids to have those role models so they can look up to them and become like them. And this was the beginning of the society moving away from God because if I go and teach my kids, my daughters, you should be like Virgin Mary or like uh Saint Mary the Coptic or any any good saint, any saint, and the same to the kids, you you have to be like a Christ, or you have to be like Saint Anthony or Saint Athanasius or Saint Paesius, and then when they read the stories of those saints, they get inspired and they start asking a question. Why did Saint Paisius when he was a young boy start praying all this time? Why I'm not doing that? And then this is part of the where where the church comes and teaches us that to be human is to follow this cloud of witnesses and have those uh this way because it's we again we don't love them because they were good, because the only good is Christ, but because they followed and walked the path of holiness where Christ walked and God chose and divided us, and God chose to use them and show us that those are my people through sometimes teaching, sometimes healings, uh in many other ways. Amen.
SPEAKER_02:Because I love this, and then Mari, I want to get to what you were gonna add there. Sure, yeah, but but tying this in with what you were saying, John, that Christ did not have to go and grab the dirt and put the spittle and put it in. We know that he didn't have to. We know also God in his ultimate sovereignty could have chosen to work out salvation in a different way. But because he loves us, because he wants communion with his creation, what did he choose to do? He chose, as you were saying, Deacon Anthony, to become one of us, to to condescend, to incarnate.
SPEAKER_00:This is the beauty, right? Because when you go and it's a beautiful, I mean, and you see that Christ does not associate himself by himself, and even in Daniel, you we read in the Old Testament that the Son of Man will come on the cloud, but then in the New Testament, we read that the Son of Man will come with his holy people, with his saints. I am the groom and you're the bridegroom, I am the head and you're the body. Christ is not dividing us, Christ is uniting us, he's bringing us to him. The vine and the tree and the branch and the fruits. It's always he's not into he's not separate from us. He is one and united with us, and he's inviting us to be one in him, and that is the beauty of about our God. This is the God that I don't think anyone can imagine, because all the other gods, if they're real, they always dealt as humanity, they see it as not good. But when God created us, he said, This is good. This is actually when he created Eve and we've become one now, we're complete, he said, This is very good. And he sees that and he extended himself to us, and he became one of us. And he and he took what for us, so he can give us what's for him to complete it. He created us on his image, and now we are invited to become like him in his likeness, and it's a step by step. We were supposed to do that in in paradise, but we we decided not to do that, and we saw the two ways that Adam and Eve chose, and but now he came and he restored us again, he had a new creation now, and now we are created again to have that invitation to be like him again, and it's a beautiful. I mean, what God or what faith will ever give us that? And it's not fake, and this is the nice thing, it's not just a philosophical topic, it's not something for oh, I have to have five or six PhDs to be like God.
SPEAKER_03:It's it's it's the reality, it's reality, and that's what you were talking about earlier. Exactly. People don't want to face the reality, and I'm curious of why people don't. Like, I'm again, I'm at college. I used to be in the military. People fill their lives with alcohol, with drugs, um, with pleasure, all these different things to not face the reality. And I feel like as Orthodox Christians, like we have to come to reality, you know, in our prayers and to a good idea.
SPEAKER_00:And why why so that's a very good question? Why we escape reality? And we escape reality because truth is very hurtful. And there is a beautiful book I was reading, and it's it says the lies that we tell ourselves. And so it's hard for us to see that we are liars, it's hard for us to see we're thieves, it's hard for us to see that we are unthankful, it's hard for us to see that we betray. That's why we love Hollywood because Hollywood have this image of a humanity which is very, very bad. That it is either you're good or you're bad. And they always make it, and and people love that. People love the idea of hero that will come and he's a purely, he's very good, or oh, this is evil. It is so easy to depict, but in reality, there is there is nothing in in reality is like that because at the same moment I can be a carriage man and very faithful and amazing. Give me 10-15 minutes, I will be a very coward that I cannot even face anyone, and and and this is this is the humanity, this is the core for humanity, and us escaping from reality is to cover that. We don't want to believe that we are lawyers, and the idea of disconnecting the faith of the action is very, very comforting. It makes us so feeling good, by the way. So, for example, uh, yeah, I lie. This is what I was, but I mean, everyone lies. I mean, so what? I mean, like, it's not like a big lie, yeah, it's a white lie, it's the justification. But orthodoxy looks at you and says, Oh, you're a liar, good, don't be ashamed. You are a liar. I mean, can you bring that into confession? Can you bring that into truth? Because if you're gonna lie to anyone, you're lying to yourself. And you know, we say about the mind, the mind of a Christ or the noose. And the only thing that we do when we lie and we deceive and we is we create hell to ourselves, and that's what people do not realize that hell is self-created, and the Christ came to give us the recipe of heaven, and that recipe was taken by his apostles, and what I what is it's like uh what reality is what will put you in in a place. I mean, if if you're a liar and someone comes, you see, oh, you're a big fat liar, or something like that. You say, Yeah, I know I'm working on it. Thanks be to God. You know, seriously, yeah, I know I love that. And you were like, What? Why he's not offended, right?
SPEAKER_02:Because he knows he's a liar, because we see it as sickness of the soul, yeah. Which I think is very, very different. It's it's understanding that God did not create us this way, he didn't intend for us to be this way, and we can be otherwise. We see that in the lives of the saints.
SPEAKER_00:Saint Macarius the Great, when uh when or Saint Macarius, when someone accused them of like having uh a relationship with uh uh a young girl, and she's a pregnant, they don't know who's the father, and then they came and they start spitting on him and hitting him and and attacking him, like how you are a monk or a god of a man of God, and you do this, and he did not even defend himself. And he's like, Yeah, I'm bad, I know, thank God, you know, even though he's innocent, he did not do anything. Yeah, but he has two choices. He had the choice of love, where because you know, I defend myself, I'm hurting her because I will I will attack her, and that's what we do. Someone attack us, immediately we attack, and because now it is unfair, it is not just, it is all these values that we're taking, that only will make your life suffering.
SPEAKER_03:Do you do you think that's because of pride? Do you think that's we that we do?
SPEAKER_00:That is exactly why, because we have we before, like I remember growing up, uh, nothing we do is good, so we always need, I mean, I'm not saying that's a good way, but this is our generation that even if you have A plus, so what everyone has A plus, and but and now in the new generation, whatever uh whatever they do, like they can just move a leg of build, and then oh my god, you're amazing, that's amazing, and then you create this self deception that I am amazing, I am doing, and you're just creating a monster. And then they grow up, they become teenager, and then they do something very bad, and then they're hit with reality why my parents are attacking me, and they they deny it, they don't want to deal because their pride, pride is the opposite of a humanity. And then when I talk about pride, for example, in and with the with American culture, they think it's a very positive and a good thing. But pride is literally the opposite of a humility, and the humility, humility is to see yourself, is to know who you are, so and that's why it's not I'm being humble, it's just I know who I am. So when you tell me you're a liar, I'm not insulted. I know I lied multiple times in my life. But then again, we go back and then we create justifications. Well, you know, if I did not lie 100 times in my uh day, then I'm not a liar. Look, there's another guy, he lied 200, that's a liar. But the 100, it's I mean, that's normal. So no, I will not. Say, I am a liar. But you are a liar. You lied once. Guess what? You're a liar. Right. Our comparison is not to our neighbor next door, but to Christ with the people. The role model.
SPEAKER_02:The true role model. I think of you know religious religions around the world that make attempts to explain these things and have they've taken either the physical or the spiritual too far. And I think of Buddhism, for example, where God is, if there's God at all, you get different answers depending on who you ask. It's impersonal, right? There's this impersonal element to it. And your ultimate goal is this really annihilationism, right? You're going to be spiritually just kind of absorbed, you know, and and lose your own consciousness, your own being. And then I think of Roman mythology, right? And you had the opposite. It was like this the gods would come down to earth and and commit all the s sins and worse of humanity. They indulged in them in the greatest of hedonisms, you know, amongst themselves and with the humans, etc. And so you kind of have this other side of the spectrum. And then, Deacon Anthony, we have today in America certain Christian groups that I think try to approach this sincerely, not making the mistake of the Buddhists, not making the mistake of the Roman pagan religions. But they still seem to sometimes get it wrong or maybe come a little short. How so?
SPEAKER_00:What it's the doctrines, and this is the thing. So a lot of the teachings that our Lord and Savior gave us was protected. And it is very hard to comprehend the reality. But when Christ came, he did not just come to die on the cross or just to be born or just to be uh resurrected or just to be uh the last supper or or he came to heal us, he came to give us a life. And in in Saint Paul, you will see he came to give us pharaonima. This is uh a Greek word that sometimes is it's translated a mindset. Uh uh, it's it's not it's a bigger than mindset, it's it's very it's like uh it's your whole you, like you see how you see things, it's like the glasses that you put on and how you see things, like for example we see this beautifully, like in in one of uh Christ, you when one time he was uh uh like sitting and talking to the people, and then you find four people digging up the roof and bringing uh the crippled down and then ask for healing. And I I wonder if I was in the church, for example, uh my turn to do homory, and then the church was full, and then I broke someone, John came, and he broke the window. Literally, he broke the window.
SPEAKER_02:As I say, this doesn't sound too far-fetched, actually.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, he he and his three friends carrying this guy and say, uh, D you can pray for him or put folly unction. I will look like what's happening? Like, why you can't just wait half an hour? Like, why you're disrespecting not only me, but all the people who are like listening to what we're saying? Don't you have respect? That that will be my my reaction. But then we say our Lord did not do that. He he he looked at and said, You are faithful, you love your friend that you did not even wait a second because this is how much important for us. And for that, for faith, not for his faith. For their faith, this is intercession for their faith. I will forgive him. His sins are forgiven. And and then everyone was like, What the heck? Like, who is he to forgive sin? Because it's only God, and then he you know the story. He he forgave, he told him to get up and walk and carry your bed, and and he did. That's beautiful, but you see the phonema of me and the phonema of him, and and this is what he's inviting us to have. He's inviting us to have his phonema, his mindset. The phonema that will make us look for the best in the other, not for the worst in the other. God, when he created us, he gave us tools, he gave us fear, he gave us hate, he gave us uh judgmental, to judge, he gave us a lot of emotions. But those emotions to discover who you are, to judge yourself, to be f scared that you will stay away from him. To to hate your sin or or be you being stay away. And those tools, instead of us having to work on us to discover and go deeper on who we are, which is very painful, we use it to go and hate other people and judge other people. And those talents we will be accounted for it. Those things that God gave us will be for example, He gave us to love and love not to go and love our bodies and do a lot of bad things and call it passions. Oh, I love and do horrendous things that what we hear now. No, love God from all your heart and love your neighbor thy yourself.
SPEAKER_03:So, how how do we get the the phronima? How how is it that you obtain that?
SPEAKER_00:And that's that's beautifully questioned, by the way. You you get it through the church because it's not a one, and this is the thing. He stayed with the disciple for three, three and a half years, and he taught them that. And after he resurrected, he kept teaching them. And you see, this Peter changed completely, like from the Peter that that he was like rough and tough and in denial, and like all these things that uh no, no, we know we'll kill you, and like a lot of stories with Peter. And then you will find them Peter who carried his cross and went to die in Rome. And you will see that with John. I mean, he live he did not uh get martyred, one of but but you'll see his witnesses and how he matured with Andrew, with all of them. And and those apostles, those disciples, is what gave the pharaonima and taught their bishops, and the seventy, and the seventy taught the the others. And the idea of us, I mean it's a it's if you can think of it, this is the Orthodox Church. It's the Pheronima, the mindset of a Christ, the idea that those apostles told their disciples how Christ lived and they imprinted it in their heart. And the grace of the Holy Spirit reveals from us. It's a beautiful, it's an amazing invitation for all of us, because in generation after generation we see the same things that Saint Clement did, Saint Paisius did. Even though they're two thousand years apart, even though Saint Pisius has finished sixth grade, but we see the same phonema, the same mindset, which by the way the Catholic like get like boof, like what's happening? You have no center bishop, no pope, and everyone is random. You take like different languages and you and you fight with each other like Antiochia and with Jerusalem, Russia with Ukraine, dysfunction with the U.S. And then you're still in unity. How? How do you do that? And there is no answer. That system was put by Christ, and the only thing we do, even we're following it, by the way, we don't know what we're doing. It is his processes, his methods, and it is found in the church. Like we're like, and then when you study now and you know, like you understand psychology, you see how deep this is into the soul. It was not by so done by someone who does not understand about the human nature, it was done and said by someone who knows exactly what is to be human and what is we need. Because it's so simple. Like, for example, if we the uh as all humans, regardless where we live or what language we speak, we all look into uh like specific things, like all human, this is universal truth, all humans wants to be loved and loved. Everyone, it's not a coincidence, someone put that in us, all humans want to seek and find the truth, and someone we seek outside of us, someone's sometimes we just deny it and like try to push it. All of us want to live forever, for example, and this is crazy. But if we go to just to hold the the idea of to love, and then there is a God that comes and say, God is love, what do you think will happen? You will love that God. And even though in in in logical sense, who will love to love God like there is no like and that's why Christianity was was spread. Christianity, if if if Christianity had no mystery, for example, in the first century, it will never be spreading to everyone, because the Gentiles, the Romans and the Greek, was waiting for a mystical God, interesting, a God that takes the physical reality and the spiritual and combine it together. So, and that's why the mystery. So if if uh if let's say one of the the group of Christians went back in time to the first century, and they said that the bread and body is just symbolic, it means nothing, no one will be Christian, no one will follow them. And this is reality, by the way, this is history. You can go and study. So it's for Christianity to be able to work, it had to deal with that aspect.
SPEAKER_02:Well, we're seeing it right before our eyes, right? Because there are certain Christian groups here in America today that have done exactly that. They've taken the Eucharist and they've made it just a symbol, and those bodies, even within a couple hundred years, they're falling apart. They're breaking up, they're breaking up, they're bifurcating.
SPEAKER_00:Because their psychology or their their phronema is not built on the phronema that Christ designed and made.
SPEAKER_02:Amen. I want to ask a question. You can forgive me. Yeah. And John, I'll put you on the spot. We've been talking about phonema of the church. If you had to, what's the phronema of the world? What's the phronema of the culture that we live in? What what's the thronoma that maybe is most contrary that you're experiencing every single day?
SPEAKER_04:That's a good question. You know, um, in I'm taking a classics class right now, and we just read part of um uh Lucretius' On the Nature of Things, and he was a Roman um philosopher. And I think a lot of what he says there is the phronema of today, where essentially nothing matters beyond your death, right? Nothing matters. Death is a sweet sleep, right? You shouldn't worry about anything beyond your death. Just live uh, you know, to enjoy. You know, don't, you know, he did say he was, he was actually um, you know, he was an Epicurean, so he he was similar to the Stoics. He's like, don't overdo it, but it's okay. And and then there's this part where he's um he he kind of takes on the persona of Mother Nature, and some mother nature um speaking right in the text, right? And she's castigating an old person and saying, Why are you so scared of death, right? Why are you remembering death so much, right? The point is to live. You didn't live, right? You didn't enjoy, you know. Um, I think that's the front of today. It's like um live the moment. Live the moment. Live the moment. And I think, you know, in some ways, you know, that can be more dangerous than saying, Oh, I want to live forever. Because it's like the people who live forever at least have some some sense of uh futurity, right? It's like there's some sense of, oh, I I want to get better. I want to, I, you know, maybe even I want to repent, but maybe even I want to cure my ailments, right? But the the live for today, right, is just it's it's uh it's that kind of disappearing into the ether, you know. It's it's it's similar to to certain religions, right?
SPEAKER_02:Um it's so short-sighted.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And because it's so short-sighted, there's no real consequences, is what I'm hearing you say. Because like you said, if death is just that sweet sleep, yeah, well, it doesn't matter really then.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, and it and and um, you know, there's also the sense, I mean, I know a lot of people will fixate on the really extreme stuff. Um, but I think in some ways, the extreme stuff, you know, um, God allows it to happen because it actually, you know, puts the most radical aspects of that, of that kind of materialistic thought into the spotlight and makes people see it and go, wow, I don't want to be like that. Right. So thank God for that, right? Thank God for everything. But I think the the most dangerous one is the oh, it's okay, right? It's okay. Um, we have so many saints warning against that mentality and that attitude. Um, and so many saints warning against the complacency of uh not remembering your death. Right. Um because you know, there's a lot of people in my life now who are having physical struggles and people's parents and you know, um, people in my family, and it's just like you don't know when it's your time, right? So that's why, right? You know, repent, repent now, right? I mean, you know, not today is the day of salvation. I'm not gonna, you know, some like fire and brimstone type thing, but but it is serious, it's very serious. Um, so that to me, that's that's you know, I read that text literally this, you know, this last week, and I said, wow, that's that sounds a lot like you know, live, laugh, love kind of thing. So YOLO. Yeah, YOLO, right? Um, so yeah, that's my that's my two cents. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So repentance is Motania in Greek, which means change of the course. And that's the recipe that also putting by Christ in in the mindset of the church. And we do repent not because we broke a legal rule, but because we want to see why we are doing it and check the source. It's like when Christ said, Uh, don't worry about what's outside the cup, clean inside. This is the this is the where it comes from. And in the in the church, we see uh it's not about the lying part or about breaking the rule part. It's about why did you do that, my son? And that's you will hear it in the confession. What was the emotion? What was the things that you thought of? What what why this led you into this? So it becomes not about breaking the rule part, it's about what is in your mind need to be changed to see things in how it should be. And hell is is there. Hell is when we can live it now and we can live heaven now. When we don't recognize who we are, we literally become disconnected of reality. And once we become disconnected of reality, nothing will make sense. Everything we feel it depends, of course. Like for example, you you see a lot of entitled kids. Whatever you do to them, they will never be satisfied. Any parent cannot do anything to satisfy them, and this is actually very sad because they can have everything that is supposed to make them happy, and they're not happy. They're void because they feel they're entitled and they should get more. And that is literally what's hell. I think we're the beginning of hell. I mean, yeah, it's the disconnect of reality.
SPEAKER_02:100%. And and how better, I think that exactly describes our modern world they've thrown away. Right? People are destroying their bodies to change who they are because they're so uncomfortable.
SPEAKER_00:Because they are looking for the truth and they think they find the truth, but what it does, it kick push them away more. Right. Everyone is looking to find his identity.
SPEAKER_03:Well, and that's where like I hear this a lot in college campuses. I'm sure John, you hear this all the time. This is my live out your truth. This is my truth.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, it become their truth, and you know, I I really wish that works. I I mean it, but it's simply it does not, and that's why they grow up and they see it's not, and then bad things happen. We are created as humans to be in connection, and this is also part of what a humanity. The cross, you will find it's not just the relationship between God and us, like like horizontal, uh it's also vertical, where we are humans meeting together. So it's this and this. There is us between us and God, and us with other humans.
SPEAKER_03:And I think that's the big stark difference between like other types of Christianity and orthodoxy, is we're so community heavy. 100%. Like I talk to John every day, you know, and I know at the end of the day and that's what we say.
SPEAKER_00:You cannot be saved by yourself, you have to be part of community. You have to be, because and again, this is in the system, like it, it's it's like designed for us, yeah, because God allow me to marry, not to have pledgers. There's that, and there is that your wife is literally who's telling you, no, you're lying to yourself, you're not this, blah blah blah, you're this blah blah blah. Yeah, and the husband is to the wife, and both of them, the community will tell them. So, what happened? You become a part of the community, and then you have your spiritual father. So you see how, and then you have your godmother and godfather, so you have a full of like people who will help you. So, in in other faiths, and you're on your own. I I I have a lot of friends that they go to a church and then they don't agree with the people on Tara, they move to the next one. It's the American way, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:You know, yeah, yeah, it's shopping. Find somewhere that has it the way you want it.
SPEAKER_00:Exactly, it's shopping for us. No, that does not work. Yeah, you have, and this is the the hilarious part that actually heaven or or us to be happy is we have to go through that misery. Like we have to go into the pain of me, uh, like like, for example, uh long time ago, I have is my brother, not my brother, like a very close friend, like a brother. And he's like, he's very, very, very selfish. And I always looked at him, he's the most selfish human being. And one time we were talking with each other, and he said, You know, you need to change who you are, you're very selfish. And I looked, I was I got like angry. I did not show him that, and I was like so frustrated and angry, and then I go to my wife, Shamasa, and I tell her, Imagine he's telling me I'm selfish, and she's like, You're supposed to be on my side, yeah. Yeah, and then like I was like, I mean, like, like let's think of it, and I saw it, I never seen it, and then I I start I told her, then then start to help me. And then I it it it's a process of repentance because it's like you're self-centered, and then you have to start denying who you are and denying what you want, and denying everything. It's very, very, very, very painful, right? It is very painful, seriously. Yeah, but without him, I would never become a better person. Without her, I will never. So instead of me drawing out of the community, listen because they know you more than you know yourself, right? And this is what we hate to hear most of the time. And by the way, just spoiler alert only selfish people will detect selfish people. If you're not selfish, you will not know that the other person is selfish. And what I mean by that, and this is something that God gave us. If you see if you see someone and you say, Oh my god, this guy is manipulative, I know that. Then you are you're manipulative, you're an expert. That's why you were able to detect it. I don't I don't want to burst your bobber. That's why you were able to see it. If you see someone like, I just feel it, I know he's a liar. You are a liar. Welcome to the club, join us. That makes me really reticent now to call anybody anything. Not even to call him. Yeah, when you think that someone is something, know that the only reason you were able to detect it is because you are an expert in it. Do you get it? Like, this is important. I mean, my wife is not listening to this podcast. So if you say, I hate this dude, he's very prideful. Guess what? John is a club.
SPEAKER_02:Amen. There's a book right behind John, and it's there. It's Being as Communion. Yeah, you see that, but it's a wonderful book, and it is on exactly what you were just describing, Deacon Anthony, which is and and you started by saying, John, we are not saved on an island, right? God himself in the Trinity communes with himself. And so his creation also communes, like you said, we are not just physical, we're not just spiritual, we are both together. And exactly, and in that, even when we were created as man, God saw that it right, that we needed a partner, a companion.
SPEAKER_00:So he created woman and in the monasteries also the same. You are not by yourself, you're with your other brother and if you want to become alone, you have to be like you have to take a special blessing. And use even Saint Joseph, when he left, his spiritual father gave him another person to go with him. Wow, you'll find only the people alone, like the old, like it's very hard because you cannot, and it's just the special people, not everyone. So it's always in communion and in community. Amen. Amen.
SPEAKER_02:Mario, Andrew, um, we were talking a bit about you know the contrast. You know, you yourself, you're a convert to orthodoxy, um, as am I. How have you seen, um, maybe in light of the sacraments or or things that we do as as Orthodox Christians that wasn't part of your faith before? Is there anything that stands out to you that's a major major part of your life in terms of getting that thronema of the church?
SPEAKER_03:Um I would say the biggest thing is probably confession. Like having to confess my sins. Um, because I would hold everything in, right? Only I know how bad I am, right? And I would kind of be like trying to hide it from God. You you think that only you and the people around you know, and so having to confess that, you know, there's a fear. There's a fear that I have to face that reality, like you were saying, Deacon Anthony. Um, but also knowing like that there's forgiveness and there's also repentance, you know, and I don't want to, I don't wanna like like I would say like it's it's heartbreaking when I haven't gone to confession and I know I'm not pro I I shouldn't properly commune because I haven't gone to confession, like our pretty says, like you need a recent confession. Um and I've sinned. It's like sometimes I've like teared up because I'm like, I can't commune, you know, with my God. And so I'm like, I don't want to sin like this again. I need Father John, when can I meet you to do confession? Right?
SPEAKER_04:Because it's real, you know? Yeah. Well, I was gonna say too, there's the other aspect of it, which is you're, you know, of course the priests are there for you, right? And they're there to hear your confession, and that's literally their job and their calling. But also, you know, like sometimes, you know, the priests will say, Look, I've been at church since 8 a.m. and it's 7 p.m., right? And it's time for people to do confession. So be merciful on us, right? There's that aspect where I'm, you know, sometimes I'm thinking, right, you know, during my day-to-day, whatever, and I'm thinking, should I do this, right? Should I commit this sin? Like, I don't want to make Father John wait for another 10-15 minutes at 9 p.m. on a Saturday, right? So that's the community too. It's like it's not right. Of course, it's about the sacrament, and of course it's about it's accountability, exactly. That's real accountability culture, right?
SPEAKER_00:It's like I remember one time I really wanted to like had a huge fight with someone, and all I could think of is oh my god, I just did confess that one week ago. How the heck are we good? Father, like let me be quiet, bite your tongue.
SPEAKER_04:And and just to say, like, for people who are not orthodox, the priest is not gonna shame you or like judge you or something. That's not what it's about. It's more about we know they're you know, you don't want to make them suffer more than they have to, right? It's it's a it's about that, but they would never say that or show that to you.
SPEAKER_00:Confession, and this is the beauty if you are a priest and you uncover anything of anyone, your priesthood is immediately gone. And the beauty of the confession, the my the Of the Orthodox Church about confession is different than others because first it's very biblical, like and you see the roots of confession in the Old Testament where it says when you are offering the uh the animals uh there is the uh for your sins, and then you confess what did you send to the priest, and then this was taken into the new church, the the uh the new Israel, the new church, and it became part of it. And Saint James said, confess your sins to each other to the holy church. So, and we stopped doing that. I mean, this is one thing of us changed it a little bit, is to become a private between the priest and the parishioner. But you are most welcome. You can stand up and confess to everyone.
SPEAKER_02:You can still do it. You first jump in just how much time do you have?
SPEAKER_00:But it's not to to uh uh oh I broke a rule, yeah. That's the big difference. It's father, uh I don't know why I did that. Help me, and then it's like a father-son. You remember when we talked about the father-son relationship? Like you see, when Saint Paul addressed Timotho, Timothy, my son Timothy. I give birth into Christ. He does not see him as a bishop, he sees him as his son, and he talks to him as his son. And when we become a Christian in the body of Christ, it it's it's a son, father, or a brother relationship between each other, which is beautiful, and that's what we need, not to be lonely again. And believe in when you try it and you have a connection with your spiritual father, because Saint Paul also teaches us you can have a lot of teachers, but one spiritual father, you will have a very special relationship with him that you literally feel he's your father. And you're not substituting your relationship with your spiritual father with Christ, because you're this and this is the humanity you're saying before you go, and you say, God, open the heart of my father, so I will hear your words through him. Because if we go and pray that, some people say, Oh, I confess to God directly. If you believe that really, then why did you do sin? I mean, if you really, really, really believe that Christ is with you 24-7, if you really believe that, you will never do bad stuff.
SPEAKER_04:Wow.
SPEAKER_00:You will never. But it's the reality that that we don't see Christ in front of us. I mean, uh, if uh you know you have faith and you believe that if you put your hand on the burner, you will burn yourself. So if if Christ is a reality for you and he is on in front of your eyes at 24 hours, why you will be sinning?
SPEAKER_04:Well, the other aspect of that too is those people who we know are saints in the church, right? And we know are righteous people who didn't necessarily make that proclamation during their life because that would be very prideful, but who did they did see Christ in front of them 24-7. Yes, right? It's like they were the one, you know, Christ literally says, Be perfect as your father is perfect. And those people got to that point, you know, where they were living in communion with God 24-7. 100% right, and we, you know, of course, you know, I I feel like I've met some very righteous people like that. Obviously, I don't know, and I'm not gonna ask them because that would be insane. But um we, you know, when you're around somebody like that, you you feel it.
SPEAKER_00:You I I saw it, yeah. Like when I met uh uh Yoronda Ephraim, I did not know who he is, to be honest. I just went to the monastery to Saint Anthony, and then I saw an old man, and you feel this weird energy. Wow, it's it's something you can't, it's peaceful. Sure.
SPEAKER_02:And that's that spirit of that.
SPEAKER_00:It's it's so weird. Like when I remember him, and he just gave me an apple and I ate it. Like I did not know him. I wish I kept it. And he's he's he's like 80 something, he's so short, so little, so thin, like he barely eats, I I think. And he has this beautiful, like peaceful smile. Uh, because I see some people they're faking their smiles, but this one is not, it's something else I never seen in my life. Wow, and I did not understand, to be honest, what are what's happening. But then when I start reading Saint Paesius or like readings about St. Paesius, like the Guru and the story of uh the young man, Guru and St. Paisius, or other Paisius, you you see the interaction, he had the same feelings I had about what elder uh from was. And it's not something like I was like, what you don't think of these things in that moment, but then when you see people in a different time having the same experience about specific people, you we you get weirded out and you see that it's a common, and that's the beauty, it's the recipe. I mean, it's not step by step, it's it's you're you're giving all your life and all yourself, and that is the point, is once we decide that we want to give our life and we love God and we love Christ God from all our heart, it does not become a minimization or a reduction, a reduction theology. It becomes, oh God, what do you want me to give more? It's not about because and this is what I feel other Christians are doing. What is the minimum that I can do to make me go to heaven after? Oh, just have faith. Oh, look good. Oh but but that's not the mindset of the Orthodox Church or the Christians, the early church. The early church, you will find an axe. They sold everything and they give it to the apostles. They literally just want to die. They would they want to live with Christ, they're waiting the second coming, they're ready. This is the attitude. It's not how much I uh I like how little I can give, it's how much all my life. You see that with Saint Simeon the stylist. He heard that Christ loved him. He literally left everything, and he said, I don't want to do anything, I don't want to eat. And the the the abbot is like, no, you have to eat. He said, How I can eat, and Christ fasted for me on the cross and died for me. And you read after in the in the end, like before the end of his life, he used to not to eat for 40 days and 40 nights, no food, no sleep, no water, only life of a prayer. And some people do not comprehend that. I can't, I can't comprehend that, but because he already left the world, he's living in different now, yeah, he's with the Christ now. Nothing is impossible. And so it's the and that is the the phonema of the of of the faith. It's not what is the minimum. Oh, I should go to Sunday to church, that's it, or once a year, or once a week. It's how many times, uh, how many times I I want to interact more with him, right? I want to be with him. He's my love. There is my relationship to him, it's a relationship between like like I love a husband and wife, for example. We love each other. You can't tell me, oh, just date her once a week, for example. Right, right. That sounds crazy, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But this is what some say 100%. Yeah, you can't tell me, oh, I will just pray for two minutes or five minutes. I want to pray, I want to be with her all day. Sure. And and it's a community, and then if you don't love God, who you see, how you uh who you don't see, how you love your brother that you don't see. That's what St. James teaching us in the epistle. And you see that all come together in in very beautiful mindset that teaches us how to live and practice our faith generation by generation. It's very beautiful and powerful.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Deacon Anthony, uh, thank you so much for coming and having this conversation with us. We've we've gone for a while. I think we can take a break at this at this stage. Maybe go get a little bit of food and maybe come back. Um, but this has been awesome. Um and and and I thanks be to God.
SPEAKER_00:Thanks for thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely. And I pray that um anyone listening right now, um, you know, may be edified by this. And as I say very often, go find an Orthodox church near you today. Um, because this is happening around the world, Deacon Anthony.
SPEAKER_00:It's uh Thanks be to God.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, as wonderful as our community is, we're there are millions and millions of other Orthodox Christians out there.
SPEAKER_00:Um and they're all beautiful, and they're all we love everyone, and they're all beautiful, but the the the beauty of the church that it was founded on Christ and on the apostles, and it has the fullness of the faith, it has all the tools, all everything you need to walk the wo the path that our fathers walked, and and they arrived, and we know that. And this is the beauty of it, it's one way, and they walked on it generation after generation, and it's our responsibility that we took from them and we're handing to the next one, and it's a continuous battle until the last day of our life.
SPEAKER_03:Beautiful, awesome. Yeah. All right, guys. That was awesome. Great, yeah, thank you so much. Thank you. Yeah, yeah. And we've done a lot, or we will continue. We can continue.
SPEAKER_02:We can yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's take a break. Let's let's stretch our legs and get a little food in us.
SPEAKER_03:It's uh 8 44. I'm gonna stop it. Perfect. Ready?