Cloud of Witnesses Radio
Audio drama retellings of the stories of the Christian Saints, Panel Discussions, Cast Commentary, Reaction Videos, Screwtape Returns, and more!
Cloud of Witnesses Radio
Protestant Converts to Orthodoxy: Cleave to Antiquity Shocks Evangelicals | Ben's Words Our Reaction
From Platform to Pilgrimage: Pastor Ben, Cleave to Antiquity, and a Journey to the Apostolic Faith
Faith over fame. Conviction over career. What would you give up to follow truth where it leads? These questions sit at the center of Pastor Ben’s move from Protestant ministry into Eastern Orthodoxy—a decision he announced on his YouTube channel, Cleave to Antiquity.
For years, Cleave to Antiquity was a thoughtful Protestant apologetics channel engaging Catholics and Orthodox Christians. So when Pastor Ben posted his conversion announcement on Cleave to Antiquity, many were stunned. The cost was immediate: he resigned his pastorate, lost followers, and faced criticism from former allies. As he admits, “It would be much more lucrative for me to remain Protestant.” Yet he chose faithfulness over familiarity.
In this episode, Mario Andrew and Jeremy Jeremiah of Cloud of Witnesses react to Pastor Ben’s announcement video from Cleave to Antiquity—pausing to consider what his story means for Christians wrestling with questions of unity, authority, and continuity. They highlight how Ben’s journey combines heart and mind: a moment in prayer with Orthodox elements where he sensed a holy presence (a fragrance of incense, a gentle warmth), and an intellectual crisis where he could no longer defend certain Protestant positions in good conscience. Integrity demanded he follow the truth—even when it led away from comfort.
Ben’s path raises the questions many of us ask:
- Unity: How do we pursue oneness in Christ amid denominational fragmentation?
- Authority: Is it Scripture alone, or Scripture within the apostolic tradition?
- Continuity: Can today’s faith and worship be traced to the early Church?
As Pastor Ben enters the catechumenate—a season of learning before reception into the Church—he’s reframing Cleave to Antiquity from teaching to learning, inviting his audience to explore the Fathers, the Creeds, and the liturgy with him. Mario and Jeremy reflect on how this posture of humility models the kind of discipleship the whole Church needs.
If you’ve ever felt drawn toward Orthodoxy or the apostolic faith, or you’re simply curious what’s moving thoughtful Protestants in this direction, join us. Watch our reaction and discussion of Pastor Ben’s Cleave to Antiquity announcement, pray for him in this transition, and consider exploring the ancient paths for yourself.
Wherever you are on the journey, may Christ lead us all deeper into truth, unity, and love.
Visit Cloud of Witnesses Radio: https://cloudofwitnessesradio.com/
Questions about Orthodoxy? Please check out our friends at Ghost of Byzantium Discord server: https://discord.gg/JDJDQw6tdh
Please prayerfully consider supporting Cloud of Witnesses Radio: https://www.patreon.com/c/CloudofWitnesses
Find Cloud of Witnesses Radio on Instagram, X.com, Facebook, and TikTok
Please leave a comment with your thoughts!
But ultimately I have to be obedient to God, Amen.
Speaker 2:Mario. This is huge. What I love about this one, it's true he is not doing this for clicks. This is Cloud of Witnesses Radio. We know orthodoxy is a niche part of the Christian world, of the online Christian world, which is already a niche part of the online world, right.
Speaker 3:It's like this sliver versus Catholicism, like this and Protestantism.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, right, and so exactly right, which, ironically, is a beautiful thing. Why? Because you know what he's doing here is genuine. He is going to lose followers. He already gave up a paying job in ministry. Lose friends. He's going to lose followers. He already gave up a paying job in ministry. Lose friends. He's going to lose friends. Right, he's going to be lambasted in some ways. Other content creators 100%, and yet he came to the faith anyways.
Speaker 2:Really excited that you're here for this video today. Pastor Ben from Cleve to Antiquity is converting to Orthodoxy. It's all the rage, you might say. It's very, very fascinating and we are going to be talking about that today in this video. We hope that you enjoy it. If you like what you see, please right now at our Patreon. The full uncut video is available for you right now on our Patreon. We hope that you enjoy this video. We'll see you at the end. Welcome to Cloud of Witnesses, jeremy Jeremiah here. We're also here with Mario Andrew. We've got an interesting one today. Mario Very now, very famously it's all over the internet, it seems Pastor Ben of Cleave to Antiquity podcast has announced that he is converting to Orthodoxy.
Speaker 1:My friend who's an Anglican priest. I love this Mark. So as we're discussing this, he says well, that's a good point, but that's why I asked God to ask the saints to pray for me, and I never really thought of that. That was like a pebble in the shoe for me.
Speaker 2:God bless that Anglican priest who explained it to him that way. I've been orthodox a long time now and I've never heard it phrased that way, and I love that right. If you're a Protestant and you have a problem with asking the saints to pray for you, ask God to ask the saints to pray for you, Because you know God hears your prayers. You know God can certainly communicate to his saints that are surrounding him at this very moment.
Speaker 3:The saints are aware they will respond to God.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Now, we believe, of course, as Orthodox Christians, that the saints are able to be aware. The fact that they are praying for us absolutely implies they are, to whatever extent it is they are aware enough to know when they need to pray for us or what they're praying for right. They're praying for God's grace and mercy to be upon us. So this kind of takes out that step, which is so uncomfortable for so many Protestants, that the saints are able to be aware and to hear our prayers and to pray on our behalf. Why, mario? Because we believe in theosis. And what is that? It's the participation in the energies of God. It's cooperation with the energies of God which is happening even now, but even more so in the literal presence of God right In heaven and around the throne of Christ. Huh, why?
Speaker 3:why is that? Why? Why is that? Why do I have to do it that way?
Speaker 2:You know what I'm saying let's tackle this head on, mario, because I love what you're saying, right there, right. What is the Protestant concern? The Protestant concern is, or the argument is basically uh, orthodox. You guys are, in essence, you are supplanting Christ, you're supplanting God, you're pushing God to the side. You don't need God because you're praying to the apostle Paul, you're praying to the Theotokos, right? In other words, we're in some way taking Christ off his throne and putting the saints there.
Speaker 2:Now, we know, as Orthodox, we are absolutely not doing that. Because, why? Well, because even in this life, right now, if I'm going through something in my life, where do I go? Of course I go to Christ. We go to Christ constantly in our prayers. I beg anybody watching this go, pick up an Orthodox study Bible. There are prayers in the back. We are praying to Christ and God, the Father and the Holy Spirit, constantly, continually. However, we know, as human beings, that I'm also going to reach out to my brother, mario. Mario, going through, you know this situation. Would you please pray for me? Of course I'll pray for you. I'm going to ask my wife to pray for me. Sweetie, this is going on. Can you pray for me? Am I supplanting Christ in that?
Speaker 3:moment. Why are you doing that? You should be going straight to Jesus, but no, it makes sense. You're asking those around you to help you.
Speaker 2:Exactly right, and that's why I love how you put that, mario. It's in some ways you could even say it's in humility.
Speaker 1:But I'm not one of those people. That's very. I'm not looking for miracles everywhere. That's never been a subject that's come up quite often in my videos. Typically it's been the exact opposite me trying to disprove several miracle claims.
Speaker 1:So a couple of days later, later, I repeat the same prayer and as I repeat the prayer and I asked for the intercessions of the Theo Tokos, I smell incense thick was unmistakable and there was this burning feeling, this warmth rather, that spread from the center of my chest to the sides of my chest. Wow, and it was such an overwhelming experience that I knew that God's hand had to be on this church. So from there the question really became this I know God doesn't want me to make the videos about the Orthodox anymore, but does he want me to become Orthodox? So that's really where I began to ask people and and have conversations on this particular subject. Now I've been involved in dialogues for quite some time and I've heard a lot of the different arguments and I've actually debated many of these arguments. But inquiring from a genuine perspective from this point, Can we pause there?
Speaker 2:Yeah, wow, right, I mean, I mean, and I remember so clearly as a Protestant, and especially in our Western modern mindset, post-enlightenment mindset any time I heard it's stories, even in the Protestant world, of this miracle or that miracle, I was always like Skeptical.
Speaker 3:Was it really a miracle? Did it really happen?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you can call it into question all you want to, but this is his testimony. I believe him 100 that he experienced this. And how beautiful is that? God giving him just this little subjective experience, kind of telling him hey, I'm here with you on this right, this is real, this true, you're on the right path. That's a beautiful thing. Orthodoxy brings that to the world.
Speaker 1:Ended up not being that and he asked a bunch of questions from the Protestant perspective and I had to answer them, prefacing them from the Protestant perspective, and I knew I couldn't make these kinds of videos anymore. I knew I wasn't going to be able to do interviews like that anymore, so I was just kind of like that's powerful, that's powerful.
Speaker 2:I don't know, mario, if you remember that feeling, but here he is. You know he's on gospel simplicity. We've had the blessing of. You know Austin Suggs has been on cloud of witnesses. We've talked with him. He's a great guy and a lot of respect for him.
Speaker 3:Can I say real quick.
Speaker 2:Yeah please.
Speaker 3:Austin is actually like. The reason I started going to an Orthodox church is the interview he had with Father Josiah Trenum. There you go. After that interview, which was my first exposure to Orthodox online, I was like what is all of this? So shout out Gospel, amen, amen.
Speaker 2:He. He says that. He says a lot of Orthodox are like I became Orthodox almost because of your channel and he's kind of like great, you know, but no, that is, that's awesome. I've. That is a fantastic episode. I've shared that with many, many inquirers into orthodoxy. He reaches that place where he's having to answer these questions as a Protestant and he realized afterwards I can't do that anymore. I remember those feelings when I was first coming to Orthodoxy. Out of my Calvinism and reformed Presbyterianism, I got to a place where I realized I didn't want to make the Sola Scriptura arguments anymore. I couldn't. I couldn't make the Sola Fide arguments anymore. I could say them, I could say them with just as much fervor as I said before, but it was empty because I saw the flaws in them, I saw the weakness, and so it's an, it's an amazing thing what we're seeing and and God bless this guy for being so transparent with his experience, you know- Okay, I'm done, I can't do that anymore.
Speaker 1:Shortly after that, I have a conversation with my senior pastor. I become fully convinced that I need to become Eastern Orthodox. I've heard all of the arguments on on basically every side, from the Protestant perspective, from the Catholic perspective, from the Orthodox perspective. So I have the conversation with my senior pastor and I tell him look, I have to put my resignation in. We have a long conversation about that. So I have resigned from my position as associate pastor at my church this last week. Shortly after that, I made the announcement video. I wanted to rip the Band-Aid as soon as possible so I could avoid scandalizing as many of you as possible.
Speaker 2:I respect it. I respect it. He went first to his church, to his hierarchy, at that Protestant church, said what had to be said. I'm sure he's obviously leaving out, I'm sure there were conversations and things of that nature, but he did what he had to do and then he went right away to his audience and he makes the announcement, like he says, to rip the bandit off as quickly as possible. I will tell you, mario, I'm very, very impressed with his approach to this, including what I think we're about to get into here, how he you can see that he knows what he's doing is a massive, massive change and he knows it's going to have an effect on his audience. And yet, as he says again and again, he had to do what he knows to be the truth.
Speaker 1:I know for many of you, you're going to take this news very hard and over the next couple of days, I fully expect that many of those same people who were praising this channel, praising the type of arguments that I put forth, praising the debate skills on this channel, so on and so forth many of those same voices are going to come out and try to slander my character. One such individual that's already come out and made a video on this subject before the announcement even went live was Dr Jordan Cooper, which was very unfortunate, and he insinuated multiple things about me which, quite frankly, aren't true. He made the claim that I was doing this for monetary gain and that that is my motivation. That is not true. He said that I was making my YouTube videos to get clicks and for monetary gain, so he questioned my character.
Speaker 1:If that is the case, it would be much more beneficial for me to remain Protestant, to continue to do these types of debates, because nobody else is really doing them. It's just me and a couple of other people that are actively engaging in Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox debates. It would be much more lucrative for me from a financial perspective to remain Protestant, no doubt, not only that to remain getting paid at my Protestant church. I've had to sacrifice a lot to come to this decision.
Speaker 2:I want to tell this quick story. The Bible Answer man is this famous radio show that was on for years. Hank Hanegraaff of the Christian Research Institute Famously again, he was the Bible answer man. He had this radio program across the country. It was all over the world really and they would take answers or questions from listeners and answer questions. He knew a lot about the Bible. It was a really great show, Very popular for a while, had a massive audience.
Speaker 2:In 2017, I want to say it was Hank Hanegraaff converted to orthodoxy. Wow, Right To me, it's an amazing story. I would recommend the audience go look it up. Hank Hanegraaff said and I could get these numbers wrong, but go with me here Something like 70% of the radio stations that he was on dropped him within the first week. Wow, the Bible Answer man show gone, Just dropped it completely because it became orthodox. Same situation here. I respect Hank Hanegraaff for that right Because, again, you know he's not doing it for monetary gain. He's not doing it to be more popular. It's the exact opposite. Thanks be to God and I'm assuming Hank Anagraff would say the same thing as Pastor Ben says here they're being blessed by it despite all of that and provided many arguments and done debates against these things.
Speaker 1:So I open myself up to all of these things but at the end of the day I have to be obedient to God.
Speaker 2:As he said. Right, he ran all kinds of debates, had tons of views. He was talking with Roman Catholics, protestants, orthodox, at a high level. Right, he has heard all the arguments from every side. Heard all the arguments from every side. You cannot make the argument that you know cleave to antiquity here is ignorantly, you know bumbling and blindly falling into Eastern Orthodoxy because it's the cool thing to do. Right, he's heard the arguments, including the best Protestant and Roman Catholic arguments. I guarantee you, mario, because I know the internet. People are going to say to him oh, you never really understood the Protestant position. Oh, you never really understood Sola Scriptura, oh, you never really understood faith alone. Mark my words and I would love it if anyone finds those in those comments of his videos, send them to us. We want to see them because I've seen it happen. And God, god, you know, god bless them. I get it. And God bless Pastor Ben for what he's doing. But those types of comments are coming.
Speaker 1:My only question in regards to that line of criticism is if that, if you really were so opposed to my character, then why would you plan to have me on your show a couple of months ago, when I reached out asking if you would be interested and you said yes, and we were going to get together and discuss me coming onto your show to work together and discuss apologetics.
Speaker 1:So if that wasn't an issue, then why is it all of a sudden an issue now? I know the answer, but I'm just going to leave that out there. My suggestion, and with all due respect as somebody who I greatly respect and somebody whose videos I've enjoyed over the years if you really feel that only those that are explicitly qualified with PhDs should be getting into debates, so on and so forth, that not even somebody who is an actual ordained pastor is qualified enough, with the blessing of a senior pastor, to go out and do apologetics which I had is qualified enough to do apologetics. So let me make a suggestion why don't you come and do Orthodox and Catholic debates? I'm sure many of your audience would enjoy seeing it.
Speaker 2:Dr Gavin Ortland did a response in some ways. He actually didn't really talk about the conversion issues, but he talked about this event and what did he say?
Speaker 3:He said help, help me. If you are in ministry, if you have some type of ordination, we need you. Yeah, if you're a scholar, we need you on the front line.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was wild. He was literally, like I said, like a call to arms. He was reaching out to Protestant scholars and you know, pastors and whatnot, saying come, do online apologetics, help us out. Like, why? Because they're losing. Now, you know, god, forgive me, lord, have mercy upon me.
Speaker 2:It's not about winning or losing, it's not about you know that type of thing and W's and L's, but rather it is exciting. Why? Because in the winning that orthodoxy is doing right now and in punching above our own weight, as gospel simplicity says when he describes orthodox apologetics online, people are finding the fullness of the faith. See, that's the thing, mario. This is not, it's not a game, it's not oh wait, we get another one on our team. That's not what it's about.
Speaker 2:People are finding what I found, what you found in our personal, real lives. Right, it changed our lives and that's what we're experiencing here. So, yes, we do get excited. Yes, it's easy to get a little rah-rah for our team, if you will, but ultimately we know that it's the grace of God who another person is leaving behind a Protestantism that is so broken and confused and a roller coaster and a different flavor on every corner, and you know apologetics and soteriology and theology that you can't really even support because it's built on something that was, you know, is less than 500 years old. They're getting away from that. It's all about finding Christ, and they're finding Christ in fullness in the church that Christ established on earth. And that's why we get excited, right. That's why we can give a high five when someone like cleaved antiquity comes to orthodoxy, right.
Speaker 1:So being said, I fully expect a lot more criticism from all sides in the coming days, but I have to do this. This is what God wants me to do. This is the path that I'll be going forward. That being said, I'd like to address what's going to be going on with the channel coming up soon. So I'll be doing several interviews with Orthodox speakers on the channel to go over different aspects of Orthodox theology and answer the questions from my audience, and the role will obviously be a little different, going into the catechumenate. I'm not going to be taking on a teaching role on this channel, more a learning role. That's really cool, and I'll invite speakers on to discuss theological.
Speaker 2:Mr Ben, I want to say right now we would love to have you on Cloud of Witnesses. We would love to have a conversation with you. Our channel, your channel. We're open to anything, but consider this an open call. We'd be more than happy to have a discussion with you, brother.
Speaker 1:One thing that I will be doing is I will be addressing some of the reasons that I have decided to leave Protestantism and become Orthodox.
Speaker 3:And then I'm just going to invite people on to react to his old videos, and I wish I could have recorded myself arguing against Orthodoxy or against Catholicism, to be able to react in the way that he is. 100%.
Speaker 2:It's a. It's a fascinating. I think maybe in some ways, mario, it's why this is getting so much attention. I mean, you and I saw right, we were on YouTube while we had dinner Every other video.
Speaker 2:Every other video is talking about Cleve to Antiquity becoming Orthodox, you know, which is awesome. But you know it's kind of interesting. It's not unlike and please I'm not trying to belittle in any way the Charlie Kirk situation, but it's similar in the sense that you know prior to what happened to Charlie Kirk, you wouldn't think, oh, charlie Kirk is going to change this country. You know, he wasn't that out front. You know, and now he is, and I think in many ways rightfully so. But the same thing. Here here's this guy with. You know great channel and you know great presence on the internet. You know in Christian, you know online apologetics, and yet his transformation is now sending ripples and shockwaves through the whole course of it. It's, I just think it's a really beautiful thing.
Speaker 1:This is my ask for the audience Please keep me in prayer. Keep me in prayer. This decision is probably one of the hardest decisions that I've had to make in my life, but I needed to get the bandaid ripped off and, all in all, this is what I would like to say to my Protestant friends. For those people who have had me on their channel, thank you so much and I love you guys, and I'm sorry if this hurts you in some way. I say the same thing to my audience that's followed me this far, but I hope that you'll continue and join me in this journey as we learn more about orthodoxy. I thank you so much for watching this video, god bless.
Speaker 2:Amen, amen. He's a brave guy man. I believe, mario, that there are people in fairly high levels of the Protestant world who I think might actually already be convinced of orthodoxy but haven't been able to make the move because it will cost them so much. That's, that's between them and God. I'm not judging that, I just but I think it's a reality. So, god bless, god bless, uh.
Speaker 2:Pastor Ben here, um, certainly he's in our prayers and, you know, let's hope a lot of his audience does stay on to follow that journey, to be part of that, because there's a lot more out there. There's 1,500 years extra history to learn that you're not learning in your current Protestant church. I can guarantee you that. Pastor Ben, thank you for sharing, thank you for your transparency with your audience, which of Cloud of Witness is part of. We want to just extend a genuine, um just hand of of of brotherly love. Uh, we'll be praying for you, um it we. If there's any way in which we can be a resource for you, we'd be happy to Please. You know, reach out if you have any questions, thoughts, anything that we can do to help your journey, because I will say we didn't say this on the episode itself, but it's going to get even harder now.
Speaker 2:He said this was the hardest decision he's ever made in his life. In many ways, the hardest part is still to come. Why? Because orthodoxy is challenging, right, it's hard to be a Christian, right, it's hard to follow Christ. Because why? Because you know, because we're weak, you know we're sick of soul. I mean, we need the hospital for the soul, and so thank you for this opportunity. We hope that you appreciate our thoughts on your video. We wish you the best in God's grace and we will offer to host you down here in San Diego if you're ever in the area. God bless you, brother. Bye-bye.