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Evangelical David Latting Confronts Orthodoxy with Luigi | Two Friends. Two Traditions. One Jesus.
When Evangelical Zeal Meets Ancient Christianity: A Conversation Between Friends
What happens when two long-time friends—one a passionate evangelical content creator, the other a devout Eastern Orthodox Christian—sit down inside a church filled with ancient icons to talk about faith, history, and what it means to follow Jesus? In this compelling and heartfelt dialogue, David Latting and Ben Langlois (Orthodox Luigi) offer something rare: a conversation marked by both conviction and deep mutual respect.
Though they come from very different traditions, David and Ben’s friendship sets the tone for an honest, disarming exchange. David opens up about his spiritual journey—how intense theological debates with Muslims drove him to investigate church history, and how walking through ancient cathedrals awakened a hunger for something deeper than modern formulas. In a moment of raw vulnerability, he describes being moved to tears during an Orthodox liturgy, even while remaining rooted in his Protestant community. “I want to break that wall,” he says, referring to the misconceptions that often prevent evangelicals from seriously engaging with Orthodoxy.
Ben responds not with defensiveness, but with clarity and grace. He explains Orthodox Christianity’s understanding of apostolic succession, the theological meaning of icons as “windows into heaven,” and how salvation is seen not as a one-time event, but a lifelong process of becoming more like Christ. His insights are never presented as a challenge to Protestant faith, but as an invitation to consider the historical richness of the early Church.
Together, David and Ben reflect on the hunger many Christians feel today for worship that is Christ-centered, reverent, and historically rooted. They share a mutual concern about the rise of personality-driven church culture and discuss how liturgical structure and ancient rhythms offer spiritual depth that many young believers are longing for.
What makes this conversation so meaningful isn’t just the exchange of ideas—it’s the way both men keep Jesus at the center. They demonstrate how friendship, humility, and shared love for the gospel can bridge even deep theological divides.
Whether you’re Protestant, Orthodox, or simply curious about the richness of Christian tradition, this conversation invites you to reflect more deeply on your own faith journey. Could exploring the ancient paths of the Church help you walk more closely with Christ?
Find an Orthodox Church near you today. Visit https://www.antiochian.org/home
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Please leave a comment with your thoughts!
The Orthodox Church even is. That's why I'm here right now. It's because there's so many misconceptions about the Orthodox Church and there's so many things that the Protestants think and operate in that are so detrimental to their own faith, and I want to break that bound. I want to break that wall, my goal on this journey, in making it public. I'm trying to be really careful and I'm young and I need to be prudent not to publicize my opinions, because that can be really hurtful to my reputation and to well, my walk as well, because I can have so many voices influencing me. So I need to really pick my battle, so to speak. That being said, do you think there's a place for me, as a Protestant, to walk the line of introducing Protestants to the Orthodox Church while I myself not convert?
Speaker 3:Hi, Jeremy Jeremiah here with Cloud of Witnesses. We're really excited that you're here. This video is a very, very important video. David Ladding came down to St Anthony's Orthodox Church in San Diego, California, met here with Ben Langlois, otherwise known as Orthodox Luigi. They had an amazing conversation that you're about to see right now in its entirety. We hope that you enjoy it. Please, if you do leave us a comment down below, click that like button and, most importantly, if you subscribe, please hit that bell. We want more people to be able to find our content and help edify others. God bless you.
Speaker 2:What's going on, guys? As you know, I'm Ben Go by Luigi online. I got my good friend, david Laddy here today and we're here at St Anthony's, at St Anthony, the Great Orthodox Church, and we're just going to be talking about orthodoxy and you know, david comes from a Protestant background, as do I, and he's at a Protestant church up in Los Angeles. So we're going to be kind of discussing some of the differences and kind of our journeys. So, yeah, welcome David, I love it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Ben, thanks for having me here. And this is a beautiful church. The icons are remarkable. Me and my friend Eli, we were walking off and we're just taking back the beauty of this place. I've been making videos for years, never really doing apologetics, never really doing any sort of argumentation for the faith, like Protestant wise, but I have come to really value and appreciate the history of the church and I've been reading and looking into what it means to be Christian. And now I'm here in an Orthodox church. I think that you have a really beautiful journey, being a Protestant now becoming Orthodox, kind of going down that same road and taking the leap into this whole new world. So I'm looking forward to talk, I'm looking forward to discuss and I'm really looking forward to just you know how do I say this Not experience, but witness your journey here. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think you and I maybe represent this population that a couple years back started realizing, hey, like we don't know anything about church history, like where did we get this? You know this Bible, first of all. Like where did that come from? You know, like, what was this? You know this pre-Martin Luther era. Like you know, we know about the Roman Catholic church. But, like you know, maybe we vaguely knew about this Eastern you know break off at 1054. Maybe we vaguely knew that. If we even knew about that, I didn't as a Protestant, and it really wasn't until I opened a book by Roger Olson, who was actually a Protestant scholar.
Speaker 2:He has an excellent book called the Story of Christian Theology and that book really was my introduction to church history back in 2020. 2020. Yeah, and I'll actually never forget because that book is pretty Western centric. But he even just like his vague mentioning of, like, the Orthodox church, I remember like feeling like an intrinsic pull towards it, like it was like something that as soon as I was exposed to it, I felt like it was the truth. And now, a couple of years, I was held back a couple of years because I was pretty convinced of Calvinism and obviously Calvinism is not an acceptable form of soteriology in the Orthodox church. So that held me back for many years, but even in those years I really appreciated um. You know the history of Orthodox church. I think I was in a similar position, maybe that you're at now. So, yeah, maybe talk to me about um, about like, what was it for you that started getting you into church history?
Speaker 1:Great yeah dude it was, it was Islam.
Speaker 2:Really.
Speaker 1:It was. It was Islam. Um, I made a video that went viral. It got 15 million views in a couple of days because someone commented on one of my videos. You help my faith in Allah. You know, I was like I can't be doing that, you know, and so that's not what you want to hear. No way, no, no way. Just not an apologist, just, you know, kind of just evangelical, like I was making TikToks, I was 17, you know, and I go. Well, that's wrong, that's not good at all. So I make a response Like Allah is not, not God Muhammad's dead and Jesus is alive. You know, islam is a lie.
Speaker 1:I was so dogmatic about it, I was just like no, no, and people got really angry and all these Muslims started to flood my comments. All these Muslims start to DM me and I, being a little ignorant, was like nah, this is you know, this is. This is just. It's so wrong, like there's no way people actually believe Islam. So I hopped on a debate with like a pretty popular Muslim TikToker and the debate was messy. I didn't prepare. I like read one book again, I'm like 17. So I read one book, nabeel Qureshi, seeking a law, finding Jesus. I like wrote down bullet points and I went into that debate. I didn't get like owned, because the points that he was making were just really bad, like the typical, like Jesus isn't God and he never says to be God, and all these like just like remarkably silly things. All that being said it, it break checked me. Why do I believe what I believe? I have taken for granted my entire life. I can get into my testimony a little bit later If the conversation leads there, but I've taken for granted my whole life that Jesus says that he's God. But does he actually, you know? And so I went into it and, you know, within about five minutes I was like no, he doesn't. And just with more research, it just it opened up a rabbit hole.
Speaker 1:I think, because Islam is so old, I had to go back pre Islam and that really started to spark a journey. It started to spark something for me, um, and then I saw the beauty in the history, especially when I went to England. Um, I went to England a couple of times with my good friend, elijah, and I went to the cathedral of York, I went to St Paul's, I went to cathedrals and churches older than my country, um, which is not that impressive. But, uh, you know cause? America is only 250 years old. But I mean these, these, these impressed this. But you know cause? America is only 250 years old. But I mean these, these, these places were ancient and they were beautiful.
Speaker 1:And I was like I'm missing something, like I'm actually missing something like this is this is beautiful. There's history here. I have family history that I know nothing about. Think of it like this I was in my grandfather's attic and I found an old, dusty book, you know, with an old, old family chart and almost like a map to treasure. I was like, what is this? So it led me on this journey and now I'm talking to you in an Orthodox church. Now we're here talking about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and maybe if I could just give maybe a brief, because I think a lot of Protestants from your audience are going to be exposed to this video and I think it'd be good to hear like the elevator pitch of like what orthodoxy is. So I can, I can kind of give that now of just like you know, the brief history. So obviously, you know, in Matthew, chapter 16, jesus Christ founded one church. You know he says, you know he says to Peter upon this rock I will build my church. You know, not churches, not multiple churches, one church. And so that church was then founded.
Speaker 2:You know we believe it in 33 AD, at Pentecost, and from there the apostles, you know, after they reposed, after they died, they appointed their successors, and so we have what's called apostolic succession in the Orthodox Church successors, and so we have what's called apostolic succession in the Orthodox Church. In fact, you can Google, you know, just an example, apostolic succession of Antiochian Orthodox, and you'll actually be able to see a by name list dating all the way back to St Peter, and you can do that for Constantinople, you can do that for Alexandria. So we have apostolic succession dating all the way back to the apostles. We have the writings of the men who actually knew the apostles and were appointed by the apostles. Like St Ignatius was a disciple of St John, he was appointed by St Peter.
Speaker 2:St Irenaeus wasa disciple of St Polycarp, who was a disciple of St John. Now, significantly, st Polycarp is also from Smyrna, which is one of the only faithful churches in the Book of Revelation, if you're familiar. So it's significant that we have the writings of someone like St Polycarp. And so, yeah, we have bishop after bishop and we have their writings, so we can see what the church was teaching for all these years. And so this really allows us to refute this notion that the Trinity was invented in 325 by Constantine or something like that. You know something?
Speaker 2:nonsensical like that right, like we hear that all the time from Muslims and you know, sometimes I hear similar stuff from even like Protestants, like, oh, the Roman Catholic church was invented, you know, by Constantine, and I know you're, I know you definitely don't believe that, but some people do believe that. So, anyways, fast forward to 1054, because at this point the church has been really one for the first thousand years. There was a couple other minor schisms I don't want to get too into the weeds with that, but the major schism was in 1054 and then culminating in 1285 with the Roman Catholics, and so from there you have the Eastern Orthodox in the East, and then you have the Roman Catholics in the West and then, as we know, we have the Protestant Reformation several hundred years later in the West. But this is something that really attracted to me about Orthodoxy is that we never had a Protestant Reformation. When I first discovered that, I was like, wow, that's really interesting. So they've just been operating like the same, like for the last thousand years, like they never had a reformation. That's really interesting to me and so, yeah, so you know, here we are today in the Orthodox Church.
Speaker 2:We have the same liturgy, which is our form of worship. Our liturgy is from St John Chrysostom, which is from. He's a saint from the fourth, fifth century, we still have the liturgy of St James, the brother of Jesus, which is the oldest, obviously the oldest liturgy in history. And so we have this, we have this continuity. You know that that really can be traced. I mean, it can be verifiably traced back to the first century. I think everybody wants to claim to be like the first century church, but I think the way the Orthodox church is unique is we actually have verifiable ways to show that and I like to point out too like you know, everybody claims the first century church, but what about the second century? Because I think a lot of people very quickly will just throw the second century church like under the bus, be like, oh yeah, they lost it and it's like well, we're not Mormons, right, like we're not.
Speaker 3:Jones Witnesses like we're not restorationists.
Speaker 2:Not even Protestants believe that. Right, the Reformation is not a restoration. Those are very distinct concepts. I like that and so like, even as a Protestant like, sometimes they'll be willing, they want to throw that second century or third century church under the bus and it's like, well, like you know, that's not even what the reformers taught. You know that's not even what the reformers taught. You know they really believed that.
Speaker 2:These fathers and this is something I encourage every Protestant to do go read the reformers, go read the Protestant reformers, because you're going to find that they probably didn't believe what you believe. You know, like Martin Luther believed in baptism and regeneration, he believed in the sacraments, he believed in the true presence of the Eucharist. He actually even believed in, you know, in a form of veneration of the saints, in, you know, in a form of veneration of the saints. And so, when Protestants are just starting to get into this conversation, I really encourage them read your people. Go read your people, because you're going to find that, gosh, they don't believe what you believe in a lot of respects.
Speaker 3:And.
Speaker 2:I think that's something that you're maybe discovering, you know, in your journey. Yeah, dude.
Speaker 1:Wow, that was a great elevator pitch. I feel like it was all over the place.
Speaker 1:You're really good at talking, no, dude. Yeah, it is something that I've experienced in looking and reading and specifically the Eucharist. I grew up in a church and I love it. It made me, it helped me so much a Baptist church in a small town, georgia, and we did not view communion highly. I even think about I'm a crier, so I might cry a lot. I love Jesus and I love this. And I went into a cathedral in York for the first time and, um, oh dude, I'm tearing up because it was beautiful.
Speaker 1:Um and it's Anglican. Um and no, maybe, maybe I will serve some some time in purgatory for admitting this, but I actually took purgatory for the Anglicans. Um, for the Catholics this, but I actually took, but I took part of the Eucharist and I wept, I wept. I truly believe I experienced the presence of God. Um, I wept. I truly believe I experienced the presence of God, Um and dude.
Speaker 1:It sent me down a rabbit hole of you know what do I believe and what did my father's belief? Um, and I'll be transparent with you. I'm very new to this, um, I'm very, very new. I've only just begun. Um, I would love to act in my life, life with as much prudence as possible.
Speaker 1:When I first became a Christian, I was alone pretty much. I got introduced to Calvinism very quickly. I had a conversation with a friend and his father came up to me during a dinner and just gave me an elevator pitch of Calvinism. Just gave me an elevator pitch of Calvinism and being impressionable and really ever, anytime I ever heard like someone charismatic and passionate about a statement. It seemed true. I was like, okay, that actually kind of makes some sense, you know, and that happened. I became a Calvinist, not really knowing why, but because it gave me. It gave me a taste, I believe, of the academic, of basically, I don't know if I'm going to say this right, but the substance in what I believe Like gave me a backing of like, okay, so church is more, jesus is more, theology is more than just pray, this prayer. Calvinism was the very first thing. I'm kind of saying this poorly, but Calvinism was the very first thing to ever give me real theology, like real, like an academic taste. Um, so I'm not going to go down that road cause I don't want to become too redundant, but I think you get the point now.
Speaker 1:Then I became a very Pentecostal. Um, I swung the pendulum like hardcore, like we're talking Mike Bickle, dispensationalists Like I became very, very, very hardcore. You know eschatology and the maps and the charts because of who I was surrounded by. Then, again, I'm young, I'm 22 years old, so 17,. I become a Calvinist for about two years and then, at 19, I become kind of Pentecostal and charismatic and a dispensationalist.
Speaker 1:And now, because I've been planted in a local church, a good church with a pastor, with elders, with deacons, in this place we hold the sacraments very high. We have a liturgy of sorts. We don't openly say liturgy, but we have an order of service and we're very on time. We hold it to a high standard. We have catechism. At my church we catechize our members, all these things, along with reading about people who have gone before me and researching and seeing churches like this and realizing, wow, like this is a lot older than me, like I'm a part of something a lot bigger. Wow, it's just blown my mind, um, and it's given me now a deep appreciation for, for truth in a way that I've never really experienced before. Um, and even my communication of this is messy. Um, even my communication of my emotions. My experience is just like you said all over the place. I feel the same way right now, but I'm okay with that and I want to make the right decision.
Speaker 2:I want to go slowly.
Speaker 1:I want to move as slow as I can in a decision, in believing, in reading. I'm okay with detention, because when I believe in the Trinity, I believe in pretty much. I don't think, in my opinion, anything like remarkably heretical. Right, I don't practice sin, I pray, I submit to my church, like I'm doing the things that I believe a Christian ought to do. So in the midst of that I like what I'm trying to say is I'm just not in a rush and in a conversation like this, like you're not talking to a Mormon, you're not talking to someone who, um is anti, you know, anti Trinity, anti, anti church, you're not talking to a hyper individualist. I'm not doing this alone. So, whatever that was, I just gave it to you. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, it's good. I mean, I think it's good to highlight the distinction between, you know, talking to a Mormon versus talking to a Protestant. The energy is very different, you know, I think you know I talked to you about this on the phone. You know we do talk about in the Orthodox Church the concept of closeness. You know there's people that are closer and further from Orthodoxy, right, like it's obvious that like a Hindu is further from Orthodoxy than a Protestant. And so the hierarchy would be something like, you know, eastern Orthodoxy, at the top Oriental Orthodoxy, roman Catholic and then Protestant and then below that would be all the you know heretical sects, like you know, mormonism and stuff like that so I do think there's a lot that we agree on.
Speaker 2:Something that I that I appreciate about you particularly is you know that you you don't have this. There's not this stigma for you of, like you know the historical church. I think you are really trying to unpack, like, what is this, what is the history that's there in the Christian church, and appreciate that for what it is. It's actually crazy. You brought up the that your, your church, is trying to do. You know more liturgical things and catechesis and stuff like that. And I've actually heard buddies who are in Baptist seminaries and like the students are like begging for that. They want even, like in the baptist circles you're seeing like, um, you know people are wanting like this more traditional thing. You know like they they're starting to read her history and there's like this is how christians worship forever.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you brought up the eucharist. You know there's a very famous video out there by francis chan that I'm sure you've seen, where he talks about, because he had he went down a similar journey about four or five years ago and he was talking about the Eucharist. He was saying something really interesting happened at the Reformation and it was the Eucharist was replaced by a powerful speaker and, yeah, the pulpit right. And when you read the liturgies throughout history, when you come to our liturgy, there's something that you'll notice Our priest isn't even looking at the parishioners, he's looking at the altar throughout pretty much the entire liturgy. He'll turn around for about 10 minutes to give a very, very brief homily or teaching. The rest of the liturgy is him humbly facing the altar and worshiping God and then every week the liturgy culminates with the Eucharist and then together, as a church family, we partake in the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ. And that happens every week.
Speaker 2:And I think Francis Chan was onto something there, that there was something at the Reformation, that there was an ontological change to the form of worship Great and it no longer was focused on Christ in the ultimate sense. Obviously, the speakers still talk about Christ. That's good, but now the focus is on the speaker rather than the speaker just being a participant in the worship service. And people are starting to notice this. They're starting even the Protestants are starting to realize this. They're like, oh my gosh, like what happened in these last couple hundred years that we got away from that Dude yeah, look, I'm tearing up Because it breaks my heart.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Look, I'm tearing up because it breaks my heart. Yeah, man, I love Jesus, I'm obsessed with him. Jesus is my love, my life, my everything. And I'm young and I have not a lot of ministry experience, but it does bother me when we idolize and uplift speakers. Being in the world that I am in, we love the influencers, we love the speakers. People will travel across the country to hear a speaker. People are obsessed with certain speakers and I'm tired of it. I'm really tired of it. I just want Jesus. And it's really funny.
Speaker 1:I went to a church Upper Room remarkable worship. I love it, it's awesome, it's long, it's wild, it's crazy, it's awesome. And they did something revolutionary. They took their singers and usually you know you're in a church, they're singing to the crowd. The congregation Upper room does this thing where they turn and they go here and the singers, they close their eyes and they literally have switched the mics and it's like a whole thing because they're making a statement like well, no, this is about Jesus.
Speaker 1:And the worship there is just remarkable. People are engaged, not with a song, because it's easy to engage in a good song, people are truly engaged with the Lord because their eyes are fixed on heaven, because the people leading them and shepherding them in that moment are fixed on the Lord. But this isn't new. Like upper room isn't? Isn't the first people to do this? Like, I went to an Orthodox liturgy once with my, with my good friend Sage, and I cried because, because the priest, like you said, was the everyone was was just looking to the altar. It was all about Jesus and the icons help with that as well. It's hard to get distracted and not think about God when, like, every square inch is God.
Speaker 2:And we should talk about icons.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we can talk about icons. I'd love to, but man, I yeah. I think it's so important that we keep our eyes on the Lord. That's what I appreciate about the Orthodox Church. That obsession with Christ is so present within the liturgy. The whole service is geared around the presence of God. The whole service is geared around the altar, and it's something that I long for. It's something that I appreciate so dearly.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, yeah, man, yeah, I mean, I was, when I was kind of, you know, studying orthodoxy from a Protestant perspective. That was something I quickly realized was that orthodoxy really is Christianity in its purest form, in that sense, like it's just, it's just raw Christianity.
Speaker 2:And um, you know, one of the things I love about about iconography is it it brings Christianity to life in many ways. Um, you know, one of the reasons for, uh, iconography historically was that people were illiterate. You know, I I like to challenge um, a lot of Protestants of like, hey, you know, what would you like? What would you do if you got to tell like an eighth century person where to go find truth? And this is a random, it's just a random century, like we could pick any century, right, but it's like, what would you? Where would you tell them to go? And I'll just ask you where would you tell an eighth century person to go find truth?
Speaker 1:To To the woods man To fight themselves brother. Well, I think about that question. I think it's a really good question. Well, where are they at in the world Are they like? What region are they in?
Speaker 2:We'll just say they're in the Middle East, europe, middle East, great.
Speaker 1:Then I would tell them to go to an Orthodox church. Yeah, I would tell them to go. I have nothing, I have no problem with the Orthodox church, like whatsoever. My friend became an Orthodox believer recently and I think about him often. I'm like, well, he's just more, you know, he just loves Jesus more now.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Like he just gets now to experience the Lord more authentically. He's, he's more of a Christian now, like he just wants to. He wants Jesus more now. So I'm like great, yeah, dude, I wanted to ask you. So 1054, this is a genuine question why do you believe there was a schism?
Speaker 2:What do you mean? Why do we?
Speaker 1:like the, the schism between the church, because, from my knowledge, um, I believe it was very, it was cultural Like. It was like, basically, it was like even the language became different and the, you know, the Catholic church, we'll just, I'm just going to say Roman Catholic church, uh, the Roman Catholics, they became so separated from Byzantine believers, from from the Eastern Orthodox church, Um, and that's why's why I asked like where were they at? Because I also have a deep appreciation for Catholicism.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Well, but so we would say that the 8th century church in the West was Orthodox, great. So as far as, like, I mean, there was a formal excommunication on both sides in 1054. It really is actually kind of a misunderstanding about that. It really doesn't culminate until the Council of Black René in 1285. That's when all four patriarchs excommunicate Rome. In 1054, it was really just Rome and Constantinople that had a formal excommunication. But yeah, so we believe that for the first thousand years, the entire West, even though they had the Latin mass, they had the Western fathers and there were those cultural differences, we believe that that church was Orthodox.
Speaker 1:Yes, same church. Yeah, it's the same church. But I feel like if I would go to an eighth century church in Constantinople, or then I go maybe farther and farther, deeper into Europe, like Italy, great, I think the church would be different. Or maybe I'm wrong about that, maybe the liturgies were the exact same, but it feels to me like the schism is a result of a farther, because the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Orthodox Church in general, it's so Eastern. Yeah, like this is such a Middle Eastern place, yeah, wow. And then when I go to England, you know there's, there's, you know, cathedrals from the 12th century there. I'm like, wow, these are so European and even the way that they operate in the liturgy, it just feels different.
Speaker 2:So we, even today, still have the Latin mass in our, in our Western right parishes. So it's not that, it's not that those churches weren't Orthodox and even like the Filioco doesn't get really dogmatized into the creed until the 1200s, okay, so like, really, up until then you're going to be reciting the same creed as those in the East and that's really, you know, in a fundamental sense, like that is the faith, right, right Is the creed.
Speaker 1:What about the icons? Yeah, because it literally just stepping into like why is the East, why, why is the Orthodox church so icon heavy?
Speaker 2:And I go into a Catholic church.
Speaker 1:It's. It's not as it's not as much.
Speaker 2:That actually didn't really happen until several, several hundred years after the schism. You can still find like a lot of the Western churches that are pre schism look exactly like this. In fact, I mean it's crazy how you can like we continue to dig up older and older churches and like there's like third century churches that we're finding that it's like the same style iconography.
Speaker 1:It's unbelievable. Yeah, yeah, 100%. It looks the same thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so so, yeah, I mean the icons. For some reason in the West, this actually has happened in every communion other than the Eastern Orthodox. For some reason is they've lost a lot of their iconography tradition. Yeah, and I don't know if that's some form of judgment or what that is, but it just is what it is. I mean, we're the only ones that have truly preserved, I mean, every Orthodox parish that can possibly afford. It is like this and this is something that we make a huge priority. Right, it is like this and this is something that we make a huge priority because, like I was bringing up earlier, I mean, this is how the ancient Christians knew the stories in the Bible.
Speaker 3:Because think about.
Speaker 2:Before the printing press, people didn't have access to the scriptures and people think that was like this oppressive thing. Oh, the church didn't let them have access to the scriptures, and that's partially true, but it's really more just that people weren't literate. Like they weren't literate, there was no printing press, so where would they learn about scripture? Well, they would go to liturgy, they would. They would hear the gospel reading, they would hear the epistle and they would see the biblical stories. So yeah, I mean that's a little bit of a tangent, but does that answer your question?
Speaker 1:No, it does it does. I just wonder where this, like I wonder when the icon there's the, where this? Like I wonder when the icon, just the icon thing for the Catholics, like when did it drop off?
Speaker 2:It was slow. I mean it was a slow, and you also have different traditions, like within Roman Catholicism, and so you know, some of them held on to iconography longer than others. And yeah, I mean it's just not something you see, very now you go into modern Roman.
Speaker 1:Catholic churches and it's's more like statutes. You know, I before I was orthodox. That's a good point.
Speaker 2:Yeah, before, that's a really good point, yeah, and actually the second council of nicaea actually, um, actually prohibits, uh, veneration of statues. We don't have a problem with statues themselves like statues are fine but it's the veneration of them that we that we prohibit in the orthodox church. Why is that? Um, it's because it's supposed to be one um, like one step away from like reality. So, like you and I are like 3d, so it's, it's, it's in order for it to be once, because we see them as windows into heaven. Great, right. So what is a window? Window is, you know? It's. It's not three-dimensional, right? So it's the same way. So we, when we're looking at these icons, we are literally looking into heaven that's great great.
Speaker 1:I love that explanation yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so the statue. For us it just has a little bit too much of like a pagan implications to it. Got you, and so that's why the Second Council of Nicaea but that's the reasoning it gives is that it's for it to be one step away from us as live human beings.
Speaker 1:When was the Second Council of Nicaea? 787. 787. Okay, great yeah, that's good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's you know we can get into like the ecumenical councils and stuff. But I don't think it's a coincidence that the second council of Nicaea was the ceiling of the seven ecumenical councils and it just happened to be that the first council of Nicaea was the first and the second council of Nicaea was the last, and I think. And then seven, as you know, is that's a number meaning completion. Right Now in the Roman Catholics they have over 20 ecumenical councils now, quote unquote. For us it's still the same seven Great.
Speaker 1:That's super cool, man. Wow, remarkable, wow, remarkable. That's so cool. Windows into heaven. Can we talk about icons? Yeah, veneration, absolutely Great, okay. So I wanted to ask you a question, and me and my friend were actually talking about this on the way here. I have a problem, and I'll be transparent with you One. I think I have a good understanding of veneration, like I think it's way more nuanced than what most Protestants think it is. I don't believe it's worship, I don't believe that you like it's like you're praying to them in the sense that I would pray to Christ, like. Again, it's hard to talk about this because there's different presuppositions. When I say those words, like the understanding for the Protestant, they're so against anything but Christ that even the thought of an icon and even like giving honor to someone else besides Christ is like literally it's a repulsive to a Protestant because we're taught that. But in my research I've I've I've learned no like if I ask a friend to pray for me, what's the difference between someone dead praying for me?
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know like the bounds there, and I don't have a. I don't have a problem with veneration at all. I don't think it's worship. All that being said, I do wonder to me me personally again, I'm so new to this but why would I give my attention to anyone but Jesus? And it's dangerous to speak from, like, just my own personal experience. Um, it's, it's. You know, I gotta be very, very careful.
Speaker 2:No, you're just being honest where you're at.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but I've never needed, um, I've never needed the prayer of a saint. I've. I was telling my wife a day ago. I feel like I'm so blessed by God. Like every day, I pray and things happen Like I pray and there's answers to my prayers constantly.
Speaker 1:I have never gone, you know, in lack for anything. So why? Why would I give my attention to someone else? And maybe I have again a wrong presupposition of what veneration is. Maybe what I'm saying right now isn't even an authentic rebuttal against veneration, because, well, I don't have right perspective. So maybe you can clear things up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, a couple things. Well, I think you implicitly have gone to, I think you have asked for intercession, because I bet you asked your friends for them to pray for you. I bet you go to your pastor to ask him to pray for you and I bet if St Paul was walking around you would go right up to him and you would ask him. You may not even clarify, if you went up to St Paul, you would probably just ask him for things, and what I mean by that is, let's say Give me wisdom right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, and that. Or like, let's say you're about to have a child and let's say your child was ill, right, and you would just walk up to Paul and say, paul, can you please heal my child? And guess what's baked into that request? That it's Jesus that's really doing it. You don't have to clarify like Paul, can you ask Jesus to heal my child? No, you know that St Paul is St Paul and he's got the ability to do that because God has granted it to him. That's good, yeah, and so it doesn't like. But that in no way takes away from the glory of Christ. No, in no way, because he's the source of that Great Right Now.
Speaker 2:We read in what I love about John, chapter 17 is Jesus actually. He actually says he's going to share his glory with us, which is remarkable, especially in the context of Isaiah and how holy God's glory is and how serious he takes it. But Jesus says in John 17 that he's going to share his glory with us right Now. That's remarkable, and so we believe that the saints partake in that. In the ultimate sense, god is always the one who alone is glorified, but he's he's sharing it with his saints.
Speaker 2:And in revelation, chapter 20, it's really interesting because, um, I don't know if you're this, this would fall under the some eschatological stuff. Yeah, specifically amillennialism, because that's what? Weological stuff? Specifically amillennialism, because that's what we are as Orthodox amillennial. So we believe the thousand years is right now, but what it talks about in Revelation, chapter 20, is during the thousand years, the saints are reigning with Christ, they're reigning with him, they're right up there next to him, and so we believe that that's where the saints are right now. They're sitting right next to the Lord Jesus Christ reigning, and so why wouldn't you, why wouldn't you want to, you know, to ask them, you know when they're sitting right there next to the throne.
Speaker 1:Dude. Yeah, that's great, I'm. We have the same eschatology. Yeah, yes, but dude, what? What's the answer between, like, basically, the realm of the dead? I'm not talking about necromancy, I don't.
Speaker 2:I don't.
Speaker 1:I don't even think veneration is close to necromancy at all. You know I'm saying what is the, what is the like the? How do I pray to the dead Like cause? You know you're what's, what's your hermeneutic, what's your exegeting of of? You know Hebrews when it says the great cloud of witnesses, like, is that? Is that what you're talking about? When you're able to pray to the dead Like, how do we know that they can even hear us?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, well, we know they're not. We know they're not dead because we see them in revelation. We see them actually praying actively.
Speaker 1:Yes, I mean, jesus says God is not the God of the dead but of the living, of the living, yeah, and so yeah, when I say dead, I mean the ceased, like I can't write, I mean, but I do, I do fully, do fully. Just for clarification. I do know that they're not like dead or Abraham's bosom, like I do believe they're with with the Lord.
Speaker 2:And consciously alive and able to pray.
Speaker 1:That's interesting, because if they're able to pray, that means they're aware. You know, they're aware. Yes, exactly, and so in that sense it's.
Speaker 2:No, I just don't. People always say, oh, it's different because they're dead. Or we say repose. I don't see how it's different, because it's very clear in scripture that they're not dead, that they are alive and that they are conscious right now. And so, if that's the case, how is it any different than you asking your friend to pray for you? I don't see how it's any different. And for you I don't see how it's any different. And it's even better because these are holy saints. You know, if you? Again back to the Paul thing, if Paul was walking around, you would be walking up and asking him for stuff. Guess what? St Paul is walking around and we get to ask him for stuff. He does intercede, you know. He does ask for the intercession, right?
Speaker 1:So yeah, when did veneration? Was it the second century? I mean we?
Speaker 2:believe it's apostolic. I mean you can, the Roman catacombs, even which late first century, early second century. There's even icons and there's intercessory prayers written underneath them.
Speaker 1:When is this Second century?
Speaker 2:The Roman catacombs.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Great, there's a. They just discovered the oldest, the oldest Christian prayer outside of scripture and it's literally a prayer to the Theotokos, and it's from the late second, early third century. And so this concept of intercession is very it's from very early on. I mean, st Polycarp's relics were venerated by an entire body of believers publicly, and so the concept of relics is just. I mean, that's even a biblical concept, because if you Elisha's bones we're raising people from the dead, the book of Acts handkerchiefs for healing people.
Speaker 2:So, and it's crazy, because I've actually met Baptists who they're against icons but they're fine with relics, which I think is really interesting. But what I also think is interesting is they don't have any relics in the Baptist church. We have relics. They got the King James Bible, but yeah. So I think it's interesting when you know Baptists kind of give credence to relics, it's like okay, well, where are your relics? We have relics. We have relics dating back to. I just went and saw when I was in Greece, I went to Crete, I saw the skull of St Titus. Great, that's funny.
Speaker 1:That's so sick. It's awesome.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. Yeah, my buddy was just in Rome and he saw, like, the forearm of Aquinas. It's like, oh, that's pretty cool. Yeah, that's fantastic. Man, what was the biggest? Okay, I'm doing this for you. Like, what was? What was the like? Okay, I've been Protestant. I have you know, you're very, like, very committed to your worldview, even in 2020, like, I saw you defending constantly the faith, righteousness I think you're a man of righteousness. I think you love, love, righteousness at whatever cost. Like, you defend truth. You're obsessed with truth Like a dog to a bone, Like you're not going to let it go. So that's why I even want to talk to you, because I've seen your character these past couple of years and you're not one to make a passive decision. So what was the decision for you to become Orthodox?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean it's hard to pinpoint one thing. I do want to answer this. I want to also address you brought up. You know some of your. You know some of your experiences you know with your with really with your valid walk with the Lord, and you know that was something that I had to. You know like I, I really loved the Lord and I had, I had valid, you know experiences with with God. You know as a, as a Protestant, and so that's not something like as Orthodox that we, you know that we completely reject.
Speaker 2:You know, I think something that was amazing about the timing is that God, god, gave me Orthodoxy at a time that my heart was ready for it. Because if I had been presented orthodoxy a couple years, like a couple years before I had been, I would have just spit it out and I would have thought it was just, you know, oh, there's just Catholics without a Pope, and you know it's all this tradition and all this stuff, and but God waited to present orthodoxy to me for a time when my heart was ready for it and really it was. You know, to answer your question more directly, it was reading that book, you know, being exposed to orthodoxy, but then, man, it really culminated when I went to liturgy. Like you know, I was at a point where I was pretty much just held back by icon veneration. I was pretty much the only thing that I was really struggling with and it was when I went and actually watched, like how, like the icon veneration and I was like to your point earlier, like this liturgy is 100% focused on Christ and like this, in no way this is not idol worship, Like I thought up to that point, it was like idol worship, you know, but when I actually witnessed it, man, like I was like this is not idol worship.
Speaker 2:This is not what I thought it was. And I saw people who they had a love for Christ, just like I had thought I had as a Protestant, and the biggest theological reason was as a Protestant. Yeah, the biggest theological reason was apostolic succession. Okay, I, it was actually in reading St Augustine, because, as he's kind of the token church father for a lot of Protestants because you can pick and choose.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:But they try to find. You know they find some certain. You know, especially soteriology, you know, in regards to maybe, the seeds of Calvinism, yeah, and so, as a Calvinist, you know I love St Augustine and up to that point I really had only read secondary. You know sources of him and when I was actually reading him and seeing how he would argue against the heretics and literally he would say he would, he would list the succession back to back to rome, and he'd be like this this is what I have, where's yours. And guess what? Saint irenaeus does? The same exact thing with the gnostics, um, the fathers throughout church history.
Speaker 2:This is how they argue. They argue theology, don't get me wrong. They give their argument from scripture they do. But really the nail for them is I can trace my lineage back to the apostles and you can't. That was really interesting to me as a Protestant, because I think a lot of times in these theology, know it's, it's like, okay, they're making some good points, they're making some good points Like who's right?
Speaker 2:And it's like, well, that guy can trace his lineage back to the apostles. He, he, you know, his teacher was taught by this guy, was taught by this guy all the way back to the apostles, and what's really interesting about that concept is it actually has root in the old testament, because, um, when a new priest was ordained in the old testament, there had to be three priests present, which is exactly how we ordain bishops now, by the way. Um had to be three priests present and one of them had to be able to trace their lineage back to joshua. And if you read the passage where Moses passes his authority to Joshua, he literally lays his hands on Joshua, yeah, yeah, and passes his, like is physically passing his authority to him, yeah, and this is exactly what we see the apostles then doing with, first of all with Matthias in Acts and then with their successors, and so this was just a huge hole that I saw in Protestantism and I was like I just don't think I can get around this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a really good answer. I love it, dude. I feel I feel like really satisfied in my church, if I'll. If I'll be honest, my pastor is incredible.
Speaker 1:Our view of authority is is something that I've never tasted in a church before. It's not that my pastor is unquestionable, just like you. Maybe your bishop isn't just like like whatever he says goes, you know, but he's submitted underneath other men and ultimately you know Christ and, like I said, our view of liturgy, our view of communion, our catechism, our understanding of baptism we take all these things so seriously, like I believe the thing that's stopping me is the culture. Like, maybe I'm maybe I'll look back on this and be like, oh, that was dumb, but what I'm thinking is like I I don't need to go to the Orthodox church because of what I'm experiencing, what I have my family, um, covering, shepherding, um. What I'm being taught is just like remarkable.
Speaker 1:What I'm experiencing in worship is remarkable. I'm being pointed closer to Christ, like literally every Sunday, yeah, and then it bleeds into my life Monday through Saturday and what I'm building there with my wife building a family. I just got asked to teach and write the middle school content, like in order to see them through middle school and then into high school, like the longevity that I've implanted, like it's all, like my roots are so deep. Yeah, and I'll be honest, I don't see the need. And I'll be honest, I don't see the need.
Speaker 2:And neither do I have the desire to convert to orthodoxy because of what I have. Well, let me give you something to chew on. So I had when I was a Presbyterian, before I converted. We had an amazing parish. My pastor was awesome, pastor Adriel North Park Press here in San Diego Fantastic church, unbelievable community.
Speaker 2:One of the things that I came to realize was this being a good church is pretty much contingent upon that pastor. I'm pretty much fully reliant on counting on that pastor being good. Otherwise the church is not going to be good. And I thought about my future children and how there's going to be a time when I'm not around and my kids are going to be starting from scratch trying to find a church with a good pastor. In the Orthodox Church I don't have to worry about that.
Speaker 2:In the Orthodox Church I know there's continuity. There's verifiable continuity, and it's not reliant on a good priest. The priest could be not, there could be a bad priest and guess what? It's still the Orthodox Church. It's still going to be the same doctrine, it's still going to be the same creed, it's going to be the same liturgy and I can count on that. I can know that when I'm no longer here and when my amazing priest, father John, when he's no longer here, I can count on the fact that my children are still going to be raised in the same faith that I found.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I think that's just something that is not there when you're starting from scratch in every generation and, yeah, you're finding you know all this stuff with church history and glory to God that your church is doing this stuff, but that's really contingent on that leadership and you don't know what it's going to be like in a generation or two. So that's just something to think about, man.
Speaker 3:I mean look like it's tough.
Speaker 2:It's tough Like I I had. I had the same exact view, like I had an amazing, you know relationship with with the Lord, you know, before becoming Orthodox and I didn't think I was missing anything. It's just incredible how much orthodoxy, just like opens your eyes to the fullness of the faith and you know. What else is interesting is you brought up all these things that you do as a Christian, whether it be fasting or praying daily or whatever the case may be. I'm awesome.
Speaker 2:One thing I find that is interesting because my parents are Protestant. They're very similar, they're very devout, they do all those same things. What's really interesting is, like a regular Orthodox Christian is doing what the best Protestant, most faithful Protestant Christians are doing. Like just a normal Orthodox Christian is doing what like the most faithful Protestant Christians are doing. What do I mean by that? What I mean is there's a structure in the Orthodox church that is for these things. You know the seasons of fasting and feasting, the daily prayers that we do. You know, as a man, I need that structure. Like I have a hard time.
Speaker 2:I used to love reading scripture. Like I would love reading scripture. I'd never had any problem reading scripture as a Protestant, I would read like a full, I would just read Romans, like in a day I had a really hard time praying, and what orthodoxy does is it gives me this balance of both right. There's the daily readings, there's the daily prayers, there's the prayers I do with my wife, which has been unbelievable for our marriage. You know, I thought my marriage was good before I was Orthodox. Now it's. It's amazing, you know. So, yeah, I mean all this to say I think I think the distinction is in the structure that Orthodoxy offers, and maybe, maybe you don't find that convincing, I don't know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but um no, I like it, like. I mean, I have I lead a prayer at my church.
Speaker 3:No.
Speaker 1:I like it. I mean, I lead a prayer at my church and it's every week 7 am.
Speaker 1:We do it. I have a team and, like I'm saying, it's like I'm experiencing the beauty of the discipline and of the consistency we fast as a church pretty consistently. I do like your point how it is contingent upon the pastors. That is actually very interesting. That is something that I have found to strike me the dangers of the. It feels like, yeah, it's like on one pillar. Yeah, you know there's a lot of weight. Yeah, do you believe that there is kind of a kind of a how do I say this A hindrance of worship and expression within the Orthodox Church because of its liturgy? Do you believe that you're hindered in your worship? Or do you believe that, well, it's Sunday, you know, because if I come here and I do a liturgy and I'm experiencing the Lord's presence, do you believe that you're hindered almost in your ability to worship? Does that make sense?
Speaker 2:It makes sense.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I would say I would say absolutely not. You know, I see, throughout the service, not in a distracting way, but you'll have people, you know, go up and venerate an icon. They'll have their prayer books out, you know, and they'll be praying whatever prayers they're inclined towards, but we'll be. You know, there's parts of the liturgy that we sing together, you know, and everybody's always singing those parts together. You know, really, the culminating event is what we really are doing together, which is the Eucharist.
Speaker 2:But throughout the service, you know, like one of the things people always message me, they're like, like I'm about to go to the north oxford for the first time. I don't know what I'm doing. I feel like I'm gonna be judged or whatever. And I'm like dude, like literally nobody cares. Like they're always asking me like what am I supposed to wear? I'm like, dude, wear pants and a button up and like, just sit in the back and watch, like it's not, it's not complicated, like, um, you know, people are really like, if you i'm've been to a liturgy, you probably saw like people are.
Speaker 2:People are kind of doing their, they're kind of doing their own thing you know it's, it's in an ordered fashion, but you know it's, it's both individual and communal, it's both right um so yeah, does that answer your question, dude?
Speaker 1:it does. Now I listen to orthodox chants all the time, all the time. They all the time. They're my favorite things, man, especially when I'm working out, dude, oh gosh, I'm like running a couple miles. You know, listening to Psalms 135, the military one, you know you see on YouTube. And you know, here's something that I would like if I would ever become Orthodox. I would miss so much is the worship that I experience in my own church. I mean, I encounter God so often in the worship. I would find it difficult to sing chants every Sunday, or do yourself like. Do you ever listen to, like, anything other than Orthodox music?
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, yeah absolutely, um, not, not, not even not saying that you can't listen to, like you know, other songs like no ACDC, you know like nothing. I'm not saying that, but I'm saying, like, do you ever listen to other worship?
Speaker 2:Yeah, Maybe I shouldn't be doing this. I actually don't mind. Like some of the old, like Protestant worship music I used to listen to, I'll still listen to that at times Great, and still appreciate it. You know, for what it is. I mean especially the ones from when I was Presbyterian which are more like hymns. Yeah, I think you know there's—because a lot of times they're just the songs yeah, you know. So there's a lot of beauty there. I do think we gotta be careful, especially I mean, you agree with this we gotta be careful with the hyper-emotional, you know, especially like Hillsong and like you just have to be careful with that kind of stuff. Yeah, the sensual stuff, Because it's easy to then, you know, it's really interesting because the feeling of of of grace that I experience in the Orthodox liturgy and where I felt that the strongest was when I was in the cathedral in San Francisco where St John Maximovich is, incorrupt relics are. You can literally look at his body. He has incorrupt flesh.
Speaker 2:He reposed over 60 years ago and I literally get the chills like thinking about it because of the grace that was in that cathedral and I remember just looking around and I don't know if you feel this way, but I have a hard time imagining, you know, just worshiping God for eternity. Like I have this way, but I have a hard time imagining, you know, just worshiping God for eternity Like I have a hard sometimes. I have a hard time imagining enjoying that. When I was in that cathedral I feel like I got a taste of what that would be like Like worship, just worshiping God for all eternity.
Speaker 1:That's why I don't have a problem when people become Orthodox. I'm like great.
Speaker 3:You know, like I was, like it's so awesome.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like I was like. It's so awesome. Yeah, that's so awesome yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so, but what I was going to bring up is that that feeling is very distinct from the sort of like emotional high that I experienced when I was, you know, in like Protestant worship services. I was literally a worship leader. Legend Acoustic Drums no, just acoustic Legend, yeah, singing.
Speaker 1:How great I could see it Legend acoustic drums, no, just acoustic and then singing yeah, how great, I can see it.
Speaker 2:This is our God. Yeah, so you know, I've experienced those, you know that type of music and those hyper emotions, and you know, I just know how dangerous it is and how easy it is to mistake for being the spirit.
Speaker 1:So, man dude, I worked with the underground church in Iran, afghanistan, iraq, mecca, even at. I had a contact. I almost went to the Kaaba. That's amazing. Yeah, filmed it, but I ended up not doing that because they got married, um and uh. Most of our martyrs in contact were Orthodox Christians. I find it interesting.
Speaker 1:Protestants will pride themselves with the idea and I think this is a result of dispensationalism and the celebration of death because of a lot of uh, eschatology, yeah, um, like, when a natural event happens, a lot of Protestants will cheer, be like this is you know, this is God, you know? Like the God's going to come, we're going to, we're about to get sucked up in the rapture. All that being said, that's filtered through when, um, christians are murdered and killed, um, they pride it, like, like, look, we are of God because we're being killed and they'll claim Orthodox believers. In that moment, with all the martyrs, the people literally being killed, they'll be like oh, look, they're Christians. And then, in a debate or when they look at theology, they'll like, reject the Orthodox believers.
Speaker 1:I find a desperate need within the Protestant community to actually educate them of what the Orthodox Church even is. That's why I'm here right now. It's because there's so many misconceptions about the Orthodox Church and there's so many things that the Protestants think and operate in that are so detrimental to their own faith, and I want to break that bound. I want to break that wall, my goal on this journey in making it public. I'm trying to be really careful with making it public, Like I said, because I really love my church and I don't plan on going anywhere anytime soon, but I do love the Orthodox Church and I do have a deep appreciation for Orthodoxy and I'm young and I need to be prudent not to publicize my opinions, because that can be really hurtful to my reputation and to my walk as well, because I can have so many voices influencing me.
Speaker 1:So I need to really pick my battle, so to speak. That being said, do you think there's a place for me, as a Protestant, to walk the line of introducing Protestants to the Orthodox Church while I myself not convert? Is that clear? Does that make sense?
Speaker 2:I think it's a good question, I think, as long as you are open about the fact that you know you yourself are on a journey because it seems like you, you know I don't mean this in any you know offensive way or anything. It seems like you are. It's a lot of unrest as far as, like you don't feel settled, like you feel like you are you have. It's a lot of a lot of unrest as far as, like you don't feel settled, like you feel like you are. You are satisfied but not settled.
Speaker 1:That's kind of the vibe I get I hear the language, I hear the language. I like with, again with my church, I'm like so, like I'm so settled. Yeah, like I'm, I have found a community of believers. Yeah, and I found a people that I love and call family and that I want to build. Yeah, like I just got asked to lead the middle schoolers and you know, and in the teaching and in worship in a sense, and and the theology and and guiding them, I am utterly committed to them, to see them, to see them grow.
Speaker 1:If I think about them, I could start weeping because I care about them. And the Lord is doing something in my life where I believe he's making me a lot more pastoral, especially with my content, like I know the clickbait stuff, and even these past couple of weeks I've had to take down posts because I'm like that was just unwise, that was just too. I know it's going to get views, I know it's going to get people's attentions and again, it's not. It's not this like horrible, like I have this like agenda. I just want to get views, but I want to get people's attention and the Lord's just reshaping me and he's reshaping me because I'm so committed to this community, to this group of believers, this group of believers.
Speaker 1:My goal and my desire I'll restate it one more time is to, as a Protestant, wrestle with the tension that I'm in, of the issues that I see in our worship, the issues that I see in our individuality, the issues I've coined it, the schizophrenic Christianity that I see a lot in Protestants, hearing the voice of God, but then your life's always changing, you know, um, because you have no you know, authority over you to kind of guide you. It's just you and your Bible, and that's kind of wild. Sometimes a lot of bad things have been birthed from that Um. And then the existential Christianity that I see within the Protestants um, giving a Protestant a prayer book and having them read a morning prayer or reading any sort of fixed prayer, because it's so ordinary, they find it so repulsive, because it's so repetitive, they find it to be redundant. And I'm like no, no, stop that I actually have an Orthodox prayer book that I pray through sometimes that my friend Sage gave me and I found such beauty in it.
Speaker 1:And now my prayer life has actually changed completely. I have a routine. Every morning I pray through five things I honor the Lord, I thank the Lord, I ask him to expose my heart, I ask him for a situation or a person, I thank the Lord. And then I surrender my goals and my dreams for the day and I've done that repetitively and that's changed my prayer life. So I'm like I want to get the Protestants to become more liturgical. I want to get the Protestants to become more, less individualistic. I want them to submit to the local body. But I'll be honest, having a platform and wanting to help people, people would DM me like how do I? I'll be honest, man, maybe this is bad for me to say on the internet, but I'm like as a Protestant, but sometimes I feel stuck Cause I'm like I have a great church I don't know, as I don't know where you're going to go.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:That's why I do appreciate the Orthodox. It's the same. The point that you made about the pastor, that's really important. I travel and speak. I've done that for years. I've gone around the world. I've gone to Greece, I've gone to South Africa, I've gone to the north of Scotland, I've gone to England, I've gone to Turkey, I've gone to Africa. I've gone all over the United States to hundreds of churches, for I've gone all over the United States to hundreds of churches.
Speaker 1:For six months at one time I was traveling to churches across the United States speaking, teaching. I've met lots of Protestant churches, lots of communities, lots of pastors, and I think the variety does worry me because I don't know what's in each congregation. And, dude, I really do like what you said about the children. I'm having a son and I'm going to make him a great man with my wife, with the Lord. I'm going to decide. When I say I'm going to make him, don't hear me saying like I'm going to make him, it's up to me, but I'm going to disciple him and I know and I trust my leadership, because I trust his leadership and I have men around women around me. When you said that, I thought about his son.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, grandkids, great grandkids, well, and that's where. So what you're talking about because you're talking about, you know, helping to bring Protestants, you know, closer to tradition and things like that yeah, to me, I see, because I had a similar view when I was Presbyterian of, like you know, really trying to reclaim tradition and Protestantism, and what I found my experience was that the problem is more fundamental than it is superficial, and I think, and what I mean by that, is there's something fundamentally wrong about Protestantism that actually breeds these things and that's and I really think it's sola scriptura let's talk about it yeah, yeah, so, so, and I'll steal man soul scriptura.
Speaker 2:You know cause? I think no, to be fair, there actually are Protestants who hold, like, the view that scripture alone means literally nothing else. I know you don't take that view. You would say, no, it's scripture plus tradition, but rather scripture is the soul, infallible source. Right, yeah, for me, right now, yeah for me, yeah, uh, turretin all these guys, the reformers.
Speaker 2:They specifically said that if the church is ever teaching something that violates your conscience, you always have the right to appeal the scripture to supersede it. And one of the things that, uh, one of our priests says, father mosaic, moses mcpherson. He says, um, that protestants are made in the image of the Pope, because that makes every Protestant their own Pope. You can always appeal to your conscience to supersede the institution, and for us, the institution is a theanthropic living organism. It is both divine and human. That is living and has been living for every century in history, living and has been living for every century in history, and so your conscience does not have the right to supersede that divinely appointed institution.
Speaker 2:When I read Matthew, chapter 18, and Jesus is giving the levels right of approaching your brother who's in error One of the things. That's really interesting is that the Protestant definition of a church is actually satisfied by a second category. He says two or three witnesses, that's a church in protestantism. But then jesus gives a third category. He says if they still don't listen to the third, the two or three witnesses bring them to the church. That means it has to be an institution. It can't just be a body of believers which I don't believe it's a body.
Speaker 1:I really am opposed against the two or more gathered in his name, because I was part of a house church with no accountability, with no leadership, with no. It was a mess.
Speaker 3:Because there's just so much of young people.
Speaker 1:But now it's like I'm part of a church where dude it really is. I have a level of authority that I can bring people to, and it's quite nice, and I do have a structure. Also. I've never had my, I've never had my conscious supersede, like I understand what you're saying about the Pope, but I don't want to rephrase it incorrectly. I want to be really fastidious with what I say, so I'm going to get clicked by the ortho bros, which probably will happen. No, I'm just kidding. I'll tell them to be nice to you. Thank you, you're their leader, ben is their leader. But, dude, when you were like you told me, you told the guys to be nice to me in the comments, thank God thank the Lord.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the ortho bros were attacking and I was like, okay, david, he Thank the Lord. Yeah, the other bros were attacking. It's okay, david, he's trying to figure it out.
Speaker 3:Leave him alone. Thanks guys. Thank you, man he's doing his best.
Speaker 1:You big brothered me, thank you, you got my back. I've never had I've never really met anyone either that has had their opinion supersede the word of the Lord. Can I clarify what I mean, please?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so what I'm talking about is when I'm driving through South Carolina or Georgia, alabama, and I drive by five Baptist churches that are part of different denominations yeah, I got you. And guess what? They all started with a guy who said you're not following scripture right, so I'm going to start my own. That's Bible believing, great. And this is where I chuckle when people say, oh, I go to a Bible believing church. It's like, yeah, I'm a Christian too. You know, like every, every Christian is a Bible, you know, thinks they go to a Bible believing church. And so, and I think you've identified, you've identified the problem, but I think you see it as fixable. And I don't know if I I don't believe it's fixable, because it is fundamental to what Protestantism is built on, which is soul scriptura. That's my point.
Speaker 1:I hear you. That was a really good clarification. Thank you, that's great. I have so much hope for the Protestant church because I have read what the reformers taught and I see what the reformers did and why they did it. I grew up in a Presbyterian school. I was learning Latin in third grade. I would watch skits of Martin Luther. We would have Wednesday chapels and I remember there were so many skits of Martin Luther, um and so like. In my brain I have this like high value and high.
Speaker 1:Basically, martin Luther has a you know, a pretty good reputation in my brain for what he did. And studying the Catholic church, um, I'll be honest, most of my research has been like around Catholicism, so my my understanding of the Orthodox Church is bare minimum. I think it's pretty evident in this conversation of, like, my understanding of the Orthodox Church and I have a deep appreciation, and I just want to be transparent about that. Like I have not done adequate research and so I'm trying not to pull things out of my hat. Yeah, I don't want to go down a little right there, but considering the Catholic church, seeing what the reformers did and why they did it, I'm like, yes, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yes, but then I have the second player of the Orthodox church, and that's why I'm here talking with you, because I want to introduce my followers, um, to this, this other player, um, cause there's a part of me, man. Maybe this is bad, but I'm okay with having people question. I love when people themselves go after truth. I have been obsessed with truth. I'll say this real quick.
Speaker 1:When I was 12 years old, I got introduced to Dawkins, hitchens, sam Harris the four horsemen of atheism. I, like I said, went to a Presbyterian school. My mother was Jewish, my father was a Baptist from Texas. They put me in a Presbyterian school I don't even think they know what a Presbyterian was and they just wanted me to be a Bible-believing Christian. I was surrounded by Jesus. Like I said, I was learning Latin, I was learning Bible verses, I was going to chapel. It was a very high church. I had a haircut, I had to take a test, I had a uniform. It was almost Catholic, it felt. I had 26 people in my entire grade. All this being said, when I was introduced to atheism, dawkins spoke with so much conviction and charisma that he swayed me. Granted, I was 12 years old, so you know how hard is it to do that? But I and it's Dawkins now looking back, I'm like his arguments are so bad.
Speaker 2:Even the atheists are like I know, I know.
Speaker 1:I know, so funny actually, but I mean, I was sway, um, I became like an atheist, very existential. So when I was 14, 13 years old, I would be in my bed weeping, you know, tears streaming down my faith faith face. Uh, thinking about my faith, thinking about my future, is this real? And I would think about death often. I was very existential and that led to a very dramatic conversion. I honestly think I was actually converted because, technically, of an icon the passion of the Christ and image of Jesus. That was my conversion Years later, after wrestling and coming to the conclusion I'm sparing the story that Jesus did exist, he was crucified, but not knowing him as Lord.
Speaker 1:I watched the passion of the Christ and I converted to Christianity. For the first time in my life, I saw Christ and I experienced something, something remarkably wild. That's why I went on TikTok at 17, screaming, weeping, saying Islam is alive, muhammad's dead, and I wasn't scared of doing it. I loved it because I experienced something while watching the passion of the Christ. At the end of the movie, the tomb closes and it goes dark and Mel Gibson he does this on purpose to kind of draw that like anxiety of like oh, he's dead, but then the tomb rolls open.
Speaker 1:When that tomb roll open, I had an experience where I fell. The hand on the back of my head, on my back, pushed me to the ground because I was standing up, crying, weeping. What's happening was at 1am and I felt a hand push me to the ground, I fall to my face and I I knew the presence of the Lord was in front of me, like something was like someone holy was in front of me. I couldn't even lift my head and I heard a voice. Um, I heard a voice, uh, will you follow me? Um, and man, I did.
Speaker 1:I said yes and then, as soon as I said yes, like all the emotions immediately left the crying stops and I was like, okay, here we go. Um, and I don't even know how I got onto that tangent, but I thought I wanted to talk about it, um, because of how militant my conversion was. So my conversion was radical. Like I saw Christ's back being ripped open, I saw Christ screaming, I saw his flesh being peeled off. That imagery converted me. I'm a very image heavy guy, I'm a visual learner, so this is so super great for me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that might be a good segue for us to talk about salvation. Great, because, you know, I really I think you know this has been a topic you and I have talked offline on is you know, how does the Orthodox view salvation? How does it compare to the Protestant view? One of the things I found that was interesting in you know, in reading, rereading the New Testament after being Orthodox, is that St Paul will use the term saved both past, present and future. Great is like imagine if I walk across the street and I get hit by a car and I'm knocked unconscious and someone comes by and administers CPR to me, right, that person saved me, right. And then imagine I am bleeding out, you know, from the car hitting me, and so an ambulance is taking me to the hospital, right? So I'm being saved by the ambulance and I will be saved by the surgeons on the table, you know, when they sew me up and stop my bleeding, right? So in this analogy, I've been saved, I'm being saved and I will be saved.
Speaker 2:Now another analogy I like to use, because this actually is going to speak to what you just brought up. It's the analogy of marriage, because I believe that marriage is a beautiful analogy for for salvation, because there's all these things that happen before you get married that lead up to the moment of marriage, and there's all these things that happen after the moment you get married that actually are your marriage. Think about like the first time you saw your wife. Like you know I don't know if you're a love at first sight guy it happened bro.
Speaker 1:Right when I saw her I was like I want to marry that girl. So there you go.
Speaker 2:So there was a very specific moment, right where you first you know, you first fell in love with your wife. But there was all these things that happened that led up to the legal aspect, which for us, as Orthodox, the legal aspect is our baptism into the church. Yes, yes, so there's a legal function. A lot of people mistake. They think, oh yeah, the Orthodox they don't. They reject all the legal forensic language. No, we don't. It's in Romans.
Speaker 2:St John Chrysostom talks about it all the time. We love the legal language, but we don't stop there, because imagine if marriage was just a legal document. Imagine if that was all. Marriage was no, marriage is all these things that led up to it. And then, more importantly, it's all these things after right, there's a daily participation, and this is St Paul in Philippians 2.12,.
Speaker 2:Right, work out your salvation with fear and trembling. So there's a daily working out of your salvation. I love it, just like there's a daily working out of my marriage with my wife. So I think it's a beautiful picture of of that God has given us, of our relationship with him. And you know just to kind of land this plane. Um, I realized this quickly as a Protestant and I think you're kind of getting there too with your reading of CS Lewis. Yeah, great, it's like this, this sort of like idea of like when were you saved? It's like it's so foreign to us as Orthodox, that question, when were you saved? It's like, well, you know I was baptized on this date, but you know I started, you know I, I first, you know, started following Jesus, you know before that. Or you know, like, there's all these things that have been part of my salvation process, like I'm working on my salvation today, right, now as we speak.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's really good.
Speaker 2:So it's a foreign question to us. You know when were you saved?
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, 100% foreign. It's foreign for me. Being in circles, I'm sure you're familiar. You would be in a group of people, maybe in a worship setting, and you would go around and tell your testimonies and I would always, in my testimony time, really highlight the fact that I don't know when this happened, because I don't. At 12 years old, 13, I became existential and began to think about eternity and I thought to myself if God's real, I have to give him everything. That is the only reasonable response, and if he's not, then I want to die. And that lasted years and years and years.
Speaker 1:When I was 15, I was driving to a church camp my mom made me go to because she was desperate for me to believe in God. And on the way there I was passing greenery and I was weeping profusely, being like there has to be someone, there has to be someone like this can't not be. Like this can't be. An accident like a tree, like you know, a leaf photo, photosynthesis, you know, like this, this is ridiculous. You know me at like you know, 15, thinking I'm a scholar because I research YouTube stuff, and but it was real. I will say it was very real. I don't want to diminish that too much. Then I had this encounter with the Lord Will you follow me? Yes, I will, god. And then I had many other times where I had to say that again yes, yes, lord, I will follow you.
Speaker 1:Reading Lewis has changed my life Recently. I went on a Lewis rampage. I read like five of his books in like two-ish weeks the Abolition of man, the Four Loves, mere Christianity, the Great Divorce and A Grief Observed. And wow, they're remarkable. Lewis has a pretty consistent theme, though not necessarily within those pieces, as they really not talking, except from your Christianity, about like doctrinal theology, but more of the practical side of it, more of like the played out, the orthopraxy. I think Lewis is filled with orthopraxy. You can see it within his writings. There's so much Jesus, there's so much theology being worked out, especially in the Great Divorce, which is, I think, my favorite work. But he talks about salvation in a sense. And, you know, in other writings and all these things.
Speaker 1:All this being said, lewis has an idea and understanding of theosis, almost of becoming like God, of becoming like God, of the sanctification aspect. He's heavy on that and the more I read him the more I have to agree, not just from just theologically reading the Bible, I've never really been able to be like you know, the once saved, always saved. I've never really understood that One, because I've known people who have wept in the presence of God and now are not walking with him. I've seen that play out and I hear people it's easy to say, well, brother, they were never saved. You don't know that Like, I've walked with them, I've talked with them, I heard their words, I heard how they spoke about my Lord. They loved him, and now and now they don't. I know someone who literally was walking with God, who still knows that God exists and yet is actively choosing not to follow them. Follow him because they want to follow their friends, they want to follow the world. They use that exact language. I'm mad at God, so I'm not following him anymore. They know of his existence, they deny him. So there's, you know, I don't know how to justify that with the one saved always said, and then the view of salvation I was saved on this day again. I, even my wife. We talk about this often. When were we saved? It just it's happening. Yeah, like it is happening. My salvation is happening, um, a couple months ago, um, because the baby was on the way.
Speaker 1:I started to work a lot, I started to get really fearful. I was like I have to do, I have to work, and I took my eyes off of Christ for a period and there was a moment when I was praying where I literally mourned like I've never mourned, because I was like Lord, I have not fallen the way that I ought to, not out of condemnation, but as a call back to love. You know, it's like that was a big moment for me. You know, that was a moment where, no, I'm working out my salvation, and fear and trembling. No, this is an active thing and I could.
Speaker 1:If I kept working and forget and I don't pray as much I could I could easily walk away from the Lord. And I read verses that terrify me, rightfully so Matthew 7, 21 through 20, or 23 through 27. Maybe I'm chopping that verse again going to get clipped. But Matthew, chapter 7, many will say to me on that day Lord, lord, yeah, matthew 7, just I don't know which verse, whatever I digress, Lord, lord, lord, lord, that that right there, these people know exactly who Christ is.
Speaker 1:Yes, lord, like like hi, like I know you, I know you Jesus, and Jesus says depart from me, I never knew you. You did all these things. Those people were confident. Those people were confident, yeah, and so, like I, I definitely have a kind of a fear of God of just like, oh Lord, I need you. And that's where I really appreciate the Orthodox church. There's a really big movement right now in the, the Protestant circle. Um, there's a man who really popularized it. His name's Todd White. I'm a, I'm a son, I'm not a sinner, um, and that has just bled specifically into my circle of the charismatic world.
Speaker 1:I'm a son, I'm not a sinner, right, and that has just bled specifically into my circle of the charismatic world. I'm a son, I'm not a sinner, I'm not a sinner. I had a man tell me once if I was in front of three undressed women, I would not sin, I would be not even tempted, because I'm a son. And the danger, the danger of that, and that's why I also really appreciate the Orthodox Church. There is this forgive me if I say it wrong, I always say it wrong Asceticism. Okay, great, yes, great. This. Holiness, lord, have mercy on me.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Lord Jesus Christ, son of God, have mercy on me. I am a sinner Like that. Right there Again, I'm a sinner. I am a sinner Like that. Right there Again, I'm getting emotional because it's so true Like I have to pray that every day. And that's where the Protestant side, sometimes the charismatic, especially, especially my circle we're losing touch of that and it's not evil. It's not evil, it's beautiful, it's good. It's true.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's true. I bring up. I mean I bring up St Paul's. You know, st Paul says in the present tense that he's the chief of sinners. Yes, present tense. He doesn't say I was.
Speaker 1:I had a guy DM me dude. He was like you know, because I made a post and I was like you know, you might be both God loves you, tension's okay and Protestants, I think, have a hard time with that because our theology doesn't really allow that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, in Orthodoxy we love paradoxes. You know that's what it is. And the paradox really is most demonstrable in Romans, chapter 7, because St Paul is you know he's talking about his wrestle with sin, his wrestle with, you know, the sinful flesh that's inside of him. You know the sinful flesh that's inside of him. Yeah, you know. He says like I want to do all these righteous things, but I can't do it. I do all the things that I don't want to do. And he says, oh, what a wretch I am. Who will save me? Thanks be to God. Through the Lord Jesus Christ, protestants will literally say that was before conversion which is like horrible hermeneutics right Because
Speaker 1:we see Romans 1 where Paul is saying you know, people who don't want God, they don't even care. Then Paul's caring. So it's like well, that makes sense. But yeah, within the charismatic community, like we just were so obsessed and I believe it's because of our worldview, because we're so Western in mind, we're so black and white the Eastern side of things when I was studying Arabic for a little bit, especially with the, you know, working with the underground church, even studying the language of Arabic, it's so fluid, like the, the writing itself, the way that you speak, it just flows out of you and that's like the Eastern thinking.
Speaker 1:That's what I really appreciate about the church fathers is that they're not so black and white. They are able to deal with the tension. So this guy, this Protestant guy who DMs me, he's like no, we're not sinners anymore. And I sent him the verse where Paul says I am the chief of all sinners hey, this is present tense. And he said I'll research it. It's been weeks since he got back to me but I'm like again speaking to my Protestant community.
Speaker 1:I'm like brothers, sisters, let us wrestle with the tension that we find within the Bible. Let us not be afraid. And I think we got on this tangent beginning with because I'm like, I'm okay, there's. This is the reason why I told my story.
Speaker 1:I love when people wrestle with truth because I know who truth is. I know it's Jesus Christ. So if you're honestly wrestling with truth, you'll come to the conclusion of Christ. So I'm okay with that tension. I'm okay with the tension of not knowing. That's why I'm so comfortable coming here talking to you in your like you know home base. But because I want truth, I want truth, I want Jesus Christ, I want him, and so, whatever path that is like, however the Lord leads me, and you know like I'll do it. I'll do whatever it takes. I don't care, I have to have truth. That's how I've always been, since a young boy, and so I just urge anyone who's listening to this seek truth, Seek Jesus Christ, Seek Jesus Christ. And I will say I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. And I will say I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, and I don't want to take too much time so I don't know how we're doing with time.
Speaker 2:We can probably wrap up shortly.
Speaker 1:Great, I've seen a conversion to the Orthodox Church, young men specifically and do you believe the motive of conversion is to know christ more? And how do we get to that place if not? Because I'll be honest, I just I make clips. I made, I make jokes about the clips twice, but it's a real thing. Um, and it's in the protestants as well. It's in a lot of christians, but we love to catch people and like we love to be right.
Speaker 1:We love tradition. I don't want to come across as like ignorant or naive when I say this, but I'm like I just want Jesus.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Like the traditions are fantastic, but traditions ought to lead to him. And I see people you know argue traditions more to be right often on the internet than to know Jesus. And even you know, I know I've actually read a lot and seen a lot from leaders and people who've been in the Orthodox Church before the mass conversion. Because of TikTok and the edits, even the Orthodox. They're saying the same thing as me. A lot of leaders in the Orthodox Church, a lot of people have been attending the Orthodox Church. A lot of members, a lot of people who've been here for a long time, are like, no, they're unhappy about the facetiousness of the orthobros. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this Again, the conversion. Like why do you think people are coming to Christ and how do we get people to fall in love with God? Like, do you see the traditions getting in the way? Like not that they're wrong, not that they're wrong or that we should drop them entirely, but how do we balance it? How do we deal with that tension coming unto Christ?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I guess I'll start by saying I think there's valid concerns here, you know, especially with you know you made a comment on your post. Like you know, certain guys are, like, converted by, like, a meme. I also think Christ, you know, I also think Christ uses those. You know like, even if you're converted by a meme. I've seen guys that were converted by a meme and now they're devout, you know, orthodox Christians, you know. But I guess I'll say this, this I think what people are starving for the most, and I don't think it's just men, I think it's women too.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah there's this, there's this uh phrase that you and I have maybe heard. Um, actually, I know you have it's, uh, it's. It's not religion, it's a relationship. Yeah, and, as orthodox, it's a religion and that's how you experience the relationship. Yep, and I think especially men, but, like I said, women too, because my wife has had the same experience Great, they are starved for structure. They are, and I was starved for structure and what the Orthodox I knew the Orthodox church was offering that. You know, you brought up something as simple as apologetics. With Islam, our saints have been arguing against Muslims since its inception.
Speaker 1:It's nice to pull back on the Orthodox and to see.
Speaker 2:It's like all I got to do. I love being an Orthodox apologist, because all I'm doing is just reiterating what we've been saying forever. Yeah, and so that structure, that's there, that framework, and it's for the men and the women. I mean, we look at all the women, saints, the greatest creature to ever walk the earth was a woman, the Theotokos. So for us, right, like this structure, I is really what is drawing people to it. Now there's an adjacent movement, you know the OrthoBros, which I consider myself to be, you know, kind of an OrthoBro.
Speaker 2:I don't think OrthoBro is a bad thing, You're the leader, so I actually so one of the original OrthoBros back from like 2017 actually goes to this parish and they literally just founded as a group just Orthodox Brothers, like that was literally all it meant oh great.
Speaker 2:And then now it turned into like this online debate thing. Yeah, here's where the ortho movement is problematic. If you're not going to divine liturgy, great. If you're not going to divine liturgy, if you're not living the Orthodox life, then you're not Orthodox. Like Look, some of these kids are like 15 and their parents are like staunch Protestants and like their parents won't let them go. Yeah, that's different, right. Like okay, you know you got to be respectful of your parents and stuff like that. But if you're like a grown, you know adult and you're you know you're doing all this stuff online and like you're not even like going to literature. You're not going to. But here's the thing you come here on a Saturday night to a Vesper service. It's like a bunch of young dudes. Like who, why are young dudes spending their Saturday nights in San Diego at a prayer service at an Orthodox church? That is remarkable.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is. It truly is remarkable, and I love it.
Speaker 2:And so this is what I tell people I'm like those same people that you're calling ortho bros and terminally online, they're going to every service throughout the week. They're, they're standing next to you at liturgy Great, and so, um, I do think there's a danger, but I really think the majority of the movement is is starred for something genuine. Um, they want Christ and they want him in his fullness, and that's what they see in orthodox church.
Speaker 1:Dude. Yeah, the relationship versus religion I've made a lot of posts about, yeah, and a lot of people. I mean they've got millions of views, yeah, and a lot, of, a lot of appreciation. Um, the only people who deny it, I think, are those who are just, they don't really understand what I'm saying. Yeah, um, there is such an influx to religion. Yeah, um, religion literally means to bind yourself or to bind, to bind basically, um, um yourself too, um, and religion is the most intimate thing that you could do.
Speaker 1:The relationship side, uh, it really does produce this hyper individualistic. Again, it's me and my Bible, um, and I think that's very dangerous and again I feel bad. I just I've, I've struck gold as a Protestant with my church. I've struck gold and I love it because, because we hold such a tight view and appreciation of religion my pastor has just spoken so heavily on that specifically. You know, it's relationship and religion. It's relationship and religion and that's what I want to be able to experience the fullness of Christ within the structure I think of the Garden of Eden.
Speaker 1:Gardens are not unkept, they're orderly. You know it takes work. Ever been to a monastery? There's men, you know, or you know you go to the girl version. There's also women working the fields and they're tending, they're taking care. It's part of the routine of these people committing their lives to the Lord, because that's how God has formed us. To be Lazy, people tend to be kind of dead Like they. They're not really living. I was telling my friend in San Diego it's so funny Like everyone here is so like happy because everyone here is so active. Um, it's part of the ontology of a human being to like, in order to function correctly, you have to work. All that being said, um, I believe the Lord has built something beautiful into us. Um, I built, I believe he's built religion into us. Yeah, um, we need it Intrinsic, we need it. It is intrinsic to our very existence. And so again to my Protestant brothers getting to church, you know so good, yeah, let us not give up meeting together as someone we're in the habit of doing right.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm going to give my final plug for the Orthodox Church and it's. I could cite a couple of different Protestant figures. Particularly Martin Luther spoke very highly of the Greek Orthodox. He said we were the most religious Christians in the world. He actually didn't consider us heretics. In fact the Lutherans dialogued with the Orthodox. Especially the second generation Lutherans did. But I particularly want to talk about CS Lewis, because I sent you that quote from his biographers. And I particularly want to talk about CS Lewis because I sent you that quote from his biographers. And Lewis visited Greece one time and his biographers documented that. He said the Orthodox priests and monks were the holiest men that he ever interacted with and he said they had a sense about them.
Speaker 2:And in the Orthodox Church we call that the phronoma. It's the mindset, the mentality, and the phronoma is really what's kept us united as one church for the last thousand years across continents, throughout brutal persecution, without a Pope to you know, quote unquote keep us united. We've stayed one church for a thousand years without Rome, because of the phronoma, because we have the same mentality, that spirituality that you find in the Antiochian Orthodox Church, you find it in the Russian Orthodox Church, you find it in the Serbian Orthodox Church, and this is why the saints this is why the saints, the Russian saints, the Greek saints when they speak, they speak in the same transcendental tone and they're saying the same things, even though they had no exposure to each other's writings, and it's because they have the throne. Great, I love that. I love that so much. It's true.
Speaker 1:I walked in here and immediately felt what I believe to be the fear of the Lord. Yeah, amen, yeah, like just the atmosphere and I just like immediate peace. I've held my tongue four times saying something in here, not that I would say something like wrong, or you could probably, if you like, go back and watch this. You'll see like I was going to say something, but I said differently Because there's a different reverence I have. There's something holy, something beautiful. I agree with Lewis 100%. If you become Orthodox, I'm like praise God, like I have. No, I have no. Like I'm like not. No, you know, I don't believe that the Orthodox Christians are heretics at all. I have a deep appreciation and love for the Orthodox church, I think specifically because of my work in Afghanistan and in Iran, in Saudi Arabia, because the Orthodox church is basically the only thing holding back Islam.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And really well, they're the most militaristic, holy, kind, peaceful, gentle, meek, mighty people that I've pretty much ever met. Yeah, I say that honestly. Yeah, thank God, thank God for the Orthodox Church, amen, yeah, amen, great, awesome, well, thank you for joining me, dude, it's so fun.
Speaker 2:God bless. God bless you all. Thank you for tuning in. Look at Great Awesome. Well, thank you for joining me, dude, it's so fun.
Speaker 3:God bless, god bless you all.
Speaker 2:Thank you for tuning in.
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