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From Megachurch to Ancient Church: Evangelical & Ortho Do All Trace Our Faith Back to the Apostles?
What Happens When Believers Take Different Paths Toward Jesus?
What happens when one follower of Christ finds deep joy and purpose in a vibrant Protestant church, while another discovers a sense of awe and sacred history in the ancient traditions of Orthodoxy? This honest and heartfelt conversation between David Latting, a well-known evangelical influencer, and Ben Langlois—better known online as Orthodox Luigi—dives into that very tension: the pull between contentment in our current spiritual homes and a yearning to connect with the roots of the early Church.
At the heart of their dialogue is a question that touches many believers seeking a deeper faith: How important is historical continuity in the Church? Ben shares how reading early Christian writers like Augustine sparked new questions. He was struck by their emphasis on apostolic succession—the idea that spiritual authority was passed down directly from the apostles through the laying on of hands, much like Moses passed leadership to Joshua (Deuteronomy 34:9). For him, it raised a challenging thought: “I can trace my spiritual lineage back to the apostles—can you?”
When the topic turns to things like honoring saints or relics, Ben offers the Orthodox perspective—something that may sound unfamiliar to many Protestants. But it's rooted in Scripture. “God is not the God of the dead, but of the living,” Jesus says in Matthew 22:32. The early Christians believed that those who had gone before us in the faith are not gone, but alive in Christ and part of the great cloud of witnesses (Hebrews 12:1). Far from replacing Jesus, this practice is about recognizing the work He has done in others and inviting their prayers—just like we might ask a faithful friend to pray for us today.
One of the most surprising parts of their conversation is the contrast between church structures. David points out how the health of many Protestant churches often rises or falls with their pastors. In response, Ben explains that in Orthodoxy, the focus is less on the charisma of the leader and more on the unchanging faith handed down through generations. “Even if the priest is struggling,” he says, “it’s still the same Church, the same gospel, the same worship.” That continuity brings peace to those looking for something that doesn’t shift with trends or personalities.
Whether you’re deeply rooted in your church tradition, exploring new ideas, or just hungry to know Jesus more fully, this conversation invites you into a bigger story—one that spans centuries, cultures, and denominations. It doesn’t tell you where you must go, but gently asks: What might God be inviting you to explore? And how could learning more about the early Church strengthen your own walk with Christ?
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And I'll be honest, I don't see the need, and neither do I have the desire to convert to orthodoxy because of what I have.
Speaker 2:Well, let me give you something to chew on. So I had. When I was a Presbyterian, before I converted, we had an amazing parish. My pastor was awesome, pastor Adriel North Park Press here in San Diego Fantastic church, unbelievable community. One of the things that I came to realize was this being a good church is pretty much contingent upon that pastor.
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Speaker 1:Dude, what's the answer between, basically, the realm of the dead? I'm not talking about necromancy, I don't even think Veneration's close to necromancy at all. I'm saying how do I pray to the dead, like cause, you know you're, what's, what's your hermeneutic, what's your exegeting of of you know Hebrews? When it says the great cloud of witnesses, like, is that? Is that what you're talking about? When you're able to pray to the dead, like, how do we know that they can even hear us?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, well, we, they're not dead because we see them in Revelation, we see them actually praying actively. Yes, I mean, jesus says God is not the God of the dead, but of the living, of the living.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so, yeah, when I say dead, I mean deceased, like I can't write, I mean, but I do, I do, fully, do fully. Just for clarification. I do know that they're not like dead or Abraham's bosom, Like I do believe. They're with the Lord, yeah, and consciously alive and able to pray. That's interesting, because if they're able to pray, that means they're aware. You know, they're aware. Yes, exactly.
Speaker 2:And so in that sense it's no, I just don't. People always say, oh, it's different because they're dead, or we say repose. I don't see how it's different, because it's very clear in scripture that they're not dead, that they are alive and that they are conscious right now. And so, if that's the case, how is it any different than you asking your friend to pray for you? I don't see how it's any different, and it's even better because these are holy saints.
Speaker 1:When did veneration? Was it the second century?
Speaker 2:I mean we believe it's apostolic. I mean you can the Roman catacombs even which late, late first century, early second century. There's even icons and there's intercessory prayers written underneath them.
Speaker 1:When is this Second century?
Speaker 2:The Roman catacombs. Yeah, great, there's a. They just discovered the oldest, the oldest Christian prayer outside of scripture, and it's literally a prayer to the Theotokos, um, and it's from the late, uh, second, early third century, um, and so this concept of intercession is is very it's it's from very early on. I mean, saint polycarp's relics were venerated by an entire body of believers publicly, um, and so the concept of relics is just, I mean, that's even a biblical concept, you know, because if you Elisha's bones, you know we're raising people from the dead, the book of Acts. You know handkerchiefs for healing people, right. So, and you know, it's crazy because I've actually met Baptists who they're against icons but they're fine with relics, which I think is really interesting. But what I also think is interesting is they don't have any relics. In the Baptist church we have relics. They got the King James Bible. The King James Bible, that's our favorite word Amen, yeah, no, but yeah.
Speaker 2:So I think it's interesting when you know Baptists kind of give credence to relics, it's like, okay, well, where are your relics, your relics? We have relics. Yeah, we have relics dating back to I just went and saw when I was in greece. I went to crete, I saw the skull of of saint titus great um, that's funny.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's so sick. It's awesome yeah, yeah that's awesome.
Speaker 1:What was the biggest? Okay, I'm doing this for you. Like, what was? What was the like? Okay, I've been protestant. I have you know, you're very, like, very committed to your worldview, even in 2020. Like, I saw you defending constantly the faith, righteousness I think you're a man of righteousness. I think you love love, righteousness at the, you know, at whatever cost. Like, you defend truth. Yeah, you're obsessed with truth. Yeah, like a dog to a bone, like you're not going to let it go. So that's why I even want to talk to you, because I've seen your character these past couple of years and you're not one to make a passive decision. So what was the decision for you to become Orthodox?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean it's hard to pinpoint one thing. I do want to answer this. I want to also address you brought up. You know some of your. You know some of your experiences you know with your with really with your valid walk with the Lord, and you know that was something that I had to. You know like I, I really loved the Lord and I had, I had valid, you know experiences with with God. You know as a, as a Protestant, and so that's not something like as Orthodox that we you know that we completely, that, we completely reject.
Speaker 2:I think something that was amazing about the timing is that God gave me Orthodoxy at a time that my heart was ready for it. Because if I had been presented Orthodoxy a couple years before I had been, I would have just spit it out and I would have thought it was just, you know, oh, there's just Catholics without a pope, and you know it's all this tradition and all this stuff, and but God, God, waited to present orthodoxy to me for a time when my heart was ready for it and really it was. You know, to answer your question more directly, it was reading that book, you know, being exposed to orthodoxy, but then, man, it really culminated when I went to liturgy, like you know, I, I was at a point where I was pretty much just held back by icon veneration. I was pretty much the only thing that I was really struggling with and it was when I went and actually watched, like how, like the icon veneration and I was like to your point earlier, like this liturgy is, is 100 focused on christ, and like this, in no way this is not idol worship. Like I thought that's, up to that point, it was like idol worship, you know, um, but when I actually witnessed it, man, like I was like this is, this is not idol worship. This is not what I thought it was. Yeah, um, and I saw people who they had a love for christ just like I had thought I had as a Protestant.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the biggest theological reason was apostolic succession. Okay, it was actually in reading St Augustine, because he's kind of the token church father for a lot of Protestants, because you can pick and choose, yeah, yeah, but they try to find, you know they find some certain, you know, especially soteriology, you know, in regards to, maybe, the seeds of Calvinism, yeah, and so, as a Calvinist, you know I love St Augustine and up to that point I really had only read secondary. You know I love St Augustine and up to that point I really had only read secondary sources of him. And when I was actually reading him and seeing how he would argue against the heretics and literally he would say he would list the succession back to Rome and he'd be like this is what I have, where's yours. And guess what? St Irenaeus does the same exact thing with the Gnostics, the fathers throughout church history.
Speaker 2:This is how they argue.
Speaker 2:They argue theology, don't get me wrong.
Speaker 2:They give their argument from scripture. They do. But really the nail for them is I can trace my lineage back to the apostles and you can't. That was really interesting to me as a Protestant because I think a lot of times in these theology debates, you know, it's like, okay, they're making some good points, they're making some good points Like who's right? And it's like, well, that guy can trace his lineage back to the apostles, right, he, you know, his teacher, was taught by this guy, was taught by this guy all the way back to the apostles.
Speaker 2:And what's really interesting about that concept is it actually has root in the Old Testament. Because when a new priest was ordained in the Old Testament, there had to be three priests present, which is exactly how we ordain bishops now, by the way. Had to be three priests present, and one of them had to be able to trace their lineage back to Joshua. And if you read the passage where Moses passes his authority to Joshua, he literally lays his hands on Joshua, yeah, yeah, and passes his like, is physically passing his authority to him, yeah, and this is exactly what we see the apostles then doing with, first of all with Matthias in Acts and then with their successors, and so this was just a huge hole that I saw in Protestantism and I was like I just don't think I can get around this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a really good answer. I love it, Dude. I feel like really satisfied in my church. If I'll be honest, my pastor is incredible, my church if.
Speaker 1:I'll. If I'll be honest, my pastor is incredible. Our view of authority is is something that I've never tasted in a church before. It's not that my pastor is unquestionable, just like you. Maybe your bishop isn't just like like whatever he says goes, you know, but he's submitted underneath other men and ultimately you know Christ and um, like I said, our view of liturgy, our view of communion, our catechism, our understanding of baptism we take all these things so seriously.
Speaker 1:Um, like, I believe the thing that's stopping me is the culture. Like, maybe I'm, maybe I'll look back on this and be like, oh, that was dumb, but what I'm thinking is like I don't need to go to the Orthodox church because of what I'm experiencing, what I have my family covering, shepherding, what I'm being taught is just like remarkable. What I'm experiencing in worship is remarkable. Um, I'm being pointed closer to Christ, like literally every Sunday. Um, and then it bleeds into my life, monday through Saturday and what I'm building there with my wife building a family. I just got asked to teach and write the middle school content, like in order to see them through middle school and then into high school, like the longevity that I've implanted. Like it's all, like my roots are so deep. Yeah, and I'll be honest, I don't see the need, and neither do I have the desire to convert to orthodoxy because of what I have.
Speaker 2:Well, let me give you something to chew on. So I had when I was a Presbyterian, before I converted. We had an amazing parish. My pastor was awesome, pastor Adriel North Park Press here in San Diego Fantastic church, unbelievable community. One of the things that I came to realize was this being a good church is pretty much contingent upon that pastor. I'm pretty much fully reliant on counting on that pastor being good. Otherwise the church is not going to be good. And I thought about my future, children and how there's going to be a time when I'm not around and my kids are going to be starting from scratch trying to find a church with a good pastor.
Speaker 2:In the Orthodox Church I don't have to worry about that. In the Orthodox Church I know there's continuity, there's verifiable continuity and it's not reliant on a good priest. The priest could be a bad priest and guess what? It's still the Orthodox Church. It's still going to be the same doctrine, it's still going to be the same creed, it's going to be the same liturgy and I can count on that. I can know that when I'm no longer here and when my amazing priest, father John, when he's no longer here, I can count on the fact that my children are still going to be raised in the same faith that I found.
Speaker 2:Look like it's. It's tough, like I I had. I had the same exact view, like I had an amazing you know relationship with, with the Lord, you know, before becoming Orthodox and I didn't think I was missing anything. Um, it's amazing how much I was missing. Like it's just, it's just incredible, uh, how muchodoxy just like opens your eyes to the fullness of the faith. I mean all this to say. I think I think the distinction is in the structure that orthodoxy offers, and maybe, maybe you don't find that convincing, I don't know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but I like it, like I mean I have I lead a prayer at my church, you know, and it's every week 7 am yeah like we do it, um, I have a team and, like I'm saying it's like, it's like I'm experiencing, I'm experiencing the beauty of the discipline and of the consistency and of the. We fast as a church um pretty consistently. Yeah, um, I do like your point how it is contingent upon the pastors. That is actually very interesting. Um, that is something that I have found to um strike me um the dangers of the. Uh, it feels like, yeah, it's like on one pillar. Yeah, you know, um there's a lot of weight. Um,