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Faiths Fighters: Have We Reached Orthodox Apologist Saturation? With Orthodox Luigi | YBT018 CWP103
Apologetics in the Orthodox Church has undergone a remarkable transformation. What was once "the world's best kept secret" now flourishes in digital spaces, revealing both opportunities and challenges for those communicating the ancient faith.
• Proper catechesis is crucial to maintaining authentic Orthodoxy with an American flavor rather than evangelical American Orthodoxy
• Online Orthodox presence is substantial, often giving the impression it's larger than it actually is
• Most Orthodox online voices are deeply committed to church life rather than being "terminally online" critics
• Young men attending Saturday vespers and other services show the appeal of traditional worship
• Orthodox churches are becoming more accessible across America, though some inquirers still live hours from parishes
• Different apologetic approaches reach different people, and we should assume the best in those defending the faith
• Resources like Father Paul Truebenbach's YouTube series and Patristic Nectar offer excellent catechesis
• All Orthodox Christians are perpetual catechumens, constantly learning from the Church's 2,000-year tradition
Join Ben “Orthodox Luigi” and Jeremy Jeremiah (of Cloud of Witnesses Radio) as we dive into the beautiful diversity of Orthodox apologetic approaches. Some people respond to straightforward, firm communication while others need gentleness and compassion. These differences aren't accidental but providential – God works through varied voices to reach people exactly where they are. Yet this diversity raises important questions about maintaining authentic Orthodox identity while speaking to American audiences.
The conversation addresses common criticisms of online Orthodox presence. Far from being "terminally online," many digital apologists demonstrate deep commitment to liturgical life. Young men choosing vespers over Saturday night entertainment exemplifies this dedication. For those without nearby parishes, these online connections provide essential lifelines to the faith.
Orthodox apologetics requires both grace and proper catechesis. Those defending the faith make themselves vulnerable to criticism simply by speaking up. Meanwhile, excellent resources like Father Paul Truebenbach's YouTube series and Patristic Nectar's materials complement parish-based instruction. Whether recently illumined or long-standing members, we remain perpetual learners in the Church's 2,000-year tradition.
Have you encountered Orthodox Christianity online? How has it shaped your understanding of the faith? Share your experience and join the conversation about how different voices reach different hearts with the unchanging truth.
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And even just like their tone and approach, right, might be different from somebody else, like, maybe some, maybe there's somebody out there who, like they need you to tell them, like they're jacked up. Maybe there's somebody else out there who, like, maybe has more of a tenderness and a compassion to the way they approach it, right. And so those, each of those people, but guess what? That person that needed to be told something firm, they probably are going to be totally turned off by the person that's like super tender and so so, like you never know, right, like everybody has a different need, right, and so in that sense, it's really god working to meet people where they're at amen, like exactly what they need amen.
Speaker 2:Right ben to your point. I'm gonna say this this is for the audience, yeah, kind of putting this on its head because you make a great point. It is so easy I know you know this, ben it is so easy to be in the audience and to be critical of this or that apologetic approach. It is so easy to condemn or to judge or to lambast someone's sincere what we believe is a sincere approach to their apologetics, whether it's tough love, whether it's using sometimes harsh words, harsh language, these types of things. I would just ask that the audience please do what I believe is the Christian approach Assume the best in that person, assume that God is working through that person to reach someone that you may not be reaching.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Ben, orthodoxy has exploded. Maybe since COVID on. We've seen so much growth. You yourself have been on the front lines of these conversations. Part of this is and we see this Mario talked about the other day at church you meet someone new who's there. Probably what 90% chance that they saw something online which is what led them to go visit an Orthodox church. It seems like there's orthodox apologists everywhere.
Speaker 1:You're one of them. Have we reached a saturation point? Um, I would say I would say yes and no. Um, I would say like, to an extent. Um, it can be, it can be dangerous. Like, and look like I probably got into it like way too early than I should have, like I was, I was debating as an inquirer, like that was probably not not a good thing, that's zeal.
Speaker 1:So I'll own that, I'll own that, which, by the way, the first debate I did on Michael Lofton's channel is now taken down after over a year and a half. He decided to take it down. So, if that's, that's quite the concession of of a debate. If you ask me, but yeah, so I mean, is it saturated? I would say no, but I would say that there's caution here with like how we approach this Right. But I would say that there's caution here with like how we approach this right, because, look, like, proper catechesis is absolutely crucial to being Orthodox, right, like I mean, one of the things that Orthodoxy does in its appeal to Americans is it? It's uniquely traditional and it's staunchly traditional Our, our I don't want to say brand, but our phronema. Really, right, as we say in the Orthodox Church, right, the mind of the church, the mind of the church, is rooted in our stubbornness of upholding tradition. Right, and so if we and this is what I fear with you know, some of the apologetics is like, if we turn into sort of like this, um, like the evangelical feel of like selling like the gospel, almost um, like, look, when you read the book of acts, like there was none of this, like, oh, like Jesus loves you so much and like you know he's he, you know he forgives you of all your sins. No, it was repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins, right, right, it was like here it is, deal with it.
Speaker 1:And so I, in many ways, I fear the way that we, um, that we can approach apologetics of this like, uh, you know, the same way, evangel, you know the evangelicals have and really failed, right, like, I mean, there's a reason why people are leaving evangelicalism, right, and that they're being drawn to orthodoxy. And so that's why proper catechesis is so important, because, yes, orthodoxy in America deserves to have a flavor of an Americanism to it. That's true, sure, because that's what we've done. We've sanctified culture. 100, we've always done that across the globe, 100, yep. So there's nothing wrong with there being an american feel to american orthodoxy, but it has to be orthodoxy. It can't be evangelical, right, you know? American orthodoxy, right, because that's not what orthodoxy is you make a great point, ben, it's you.
Speaker 2:You mentioned the right practice. It's in our name orthodoxy. The right practice, the right belief is crucial to who we are right, and that doesn't come about by accident. It comes about, as you said, by an adherence, a strict adherence to what's come before, right To the fathers. We're always looking backwards, we're not trying to deal with what we can make things up for today. Right, it's one of the beauties of Orthodoxy In that this Americanized, maybe apologetics approach. I happen to love it in the sense that Orthodoxy didn't always have this.
Speaker 2:There's kind of this famous saying which I think we should maybe be a little ashamed of. They just say orthodoxy is the best kept secret in america. Yeah, right, because the idea was we were here, we've been here for a long time, right, but no one knew about orthodoxy. And the kind of excuse or the explanation that was given was well, because we don't go and preach the gospel the way the evangelicals do. We live it. Right, and I think there's truth to that and there's power in that. But there's also something to be said for, as Paul did, going out into the marketplace and defending the faith and being a uh, an actual apologist, right, so you were saying yes and no, there's a saturation. What's the sense in which? Uh, there isn't like what, or there is what does this mean to you?
Speaker 1:There isn't, in the sense that there are 8 billion people in the world and we have a lot of people to reach with with the gospel, right. You know, I I was actually taught as a Protestant when, when, when that quote was read, the famous quote that you kind of just referenced. You know, preach the gospel, always, use words when necessary, right. So as a Protestant, I was told that that was actually a bad thing. Sure, that's actually the wrong way to go about it. Right, the Orthodox Church seems to embrace that. You know that, like notion of like it's a both and Right, like you are living the Orthodox life, like, first and foremost, which is why we say that a theologian is the one who does theology Right, or one who prays.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, amen, yeah Right, but you brought up the other phrase. You know, orthodoxy being the world's best kept secret, there's people that unfortunately, wear that as a badge of honor.
Speaker 2:Wear that as a badge of honor. I think it's like soup.
Speaker 1:They found this like super niche, yeah yeah, which is that breaks my heart, you know, um, because that's not what orthodoxy is.
Speaker 1:Like we, it's a like, you know, like our priest, father john, always says, like that's not a good thing. The fact that orthodoxy is the best kept secret is not a, that's not something that should be worn with a like a badge of honor. 100. That's something that we should hang our head in shame like, right, the fact that we haven't, you know, um, been you know little evangelical enough, um, now that's where I give a lot of credit to the online presence, because we are substantially overrepresented in the online community. I mean, if you were just online, like you would, you would get the impression that, like, we were like just as big as the Roman Catholics, right, like, exactly, and obviously you know we're not by a long shot Right, right, right Now. The criticism is often, well, you know, they're terminally online and like. I made a meme a while back and it was like, you know, it was like ortho bros, you know, attending midweek liturgy, vespers, saturday and Sunday liturgy every week, just to be called terminally online.
Speaker 1:And it's like you know, it's like you know you go to anyone that thinks that, like, go to a go to a Saturday at Vespers. I mean, I was just shocked when my wife and I first started going to an Orthodox church. I was just shocked at seeing all these young men spending their Saturday night at a Vesper service. Like, what in the world are these young guys doing? Young dudes that could be out partying. No, they're at a prayer service for the Orthodox church. Right, and guess what? Like, look, no one's arguing that. You know, online orthodoxy isn't a problem insofar as those that don't live it, those that don't attend divine liturgy Sure, sure, right. Like, if you're talking about orthodoxy online and you don't even go to liturgy, like you know, that's like step one right is like going to liturgy.
Speaker 2:Dare you say it If you're not going to liturgy, don't call yourself orthodox.
Speaker 1:Right, right, yeah, so don't call yourself orthodox. Right, right, yeah, so that's the fear. Yeah, right, but um, we need to be really careful to not be like virtue signalers in calling people terminally online because we don't know what their struggle is, we don't know, we don't know that they're terminally online like and, and my experience has been most of the time they're not. They're not. Most of the time they actually are in the trenches, they actually are at divine liturgy and they're really trying. They're really struggling in their Christian life.
Speaker 2:Can I tell you, ben, I'm sure you have these experiences as well. People reach out to me all the time who they're asking? Because they're from certain parts of the country. The closest Orthodox church to them is two and a half hours away and they don't have the ability to get there. Like you said, they're in the trenches. They want to be in some cases, but they maybe can't be at present.
Speaker 1:But they are on the phone with the priest. They're trying to work out ways to become involved. God understands that. Yeah, yeah, and actually I bring, when people bring up that point in particular, I actually bring up Father John's story because he tells it often about how he had to drive six hours each way to liturgy when he converted back in the 90s. Yeah, I think it was the 90s. I think that's right. Yes, yeah, and um, like, think about how much progress we've made now. I mean, unless you live in like the straight up boondocks, usually you're about an hour from like, at most an hour from like the orthodox, closest orthodox thanks be to god for that yeah, amen, yeah.
Speaker 1:so we made a lot of progress on that front and I think we're continuing to make progress. I mean, that's another example of how we're growing. I mean, you know, planting more and more Orthodox churches is going to be absolutely necessary to reach these people that are hungry for it.
Speaker 2:And they're hungry for it, man, let's say it, oftentimes because of what they've learned online. Right, it's a beautiful thing. You mentioned something at the beginning of this conversation that I want to touch on. You said there's 8 billion people on earth. Right, I love that. I agree with you. That's why it is not saturated. It might appear to be saturated at first glance or, you know, like you said, a quick perusal online, but the reality is, the reason we need all these various apologists and people who are out there sharing their faith with the world is because your style of apologetics might not appeal to and or speak to certain people in the world. The same way, cloud Witnesses Radio might not speak to certain people in the world. I use the analogy We've got Netflix, hulu, amazon Prime, apple Plus. There's a gazillion shows out there. Is it saturated in one sense? But is there anything good to watch?
Speaker 1:not really. You know what I mean. It's that paradox. It's that paradox.
Speaker 2:But you find that one that you like, the one that appeals to you or speaks to you. That's why we're out there to be salt and light and to keep our candles visible to the world yeah, and I appreciate the fact that there are.
Speaker 1:You know, to your point, there are apologists who are gifted in a very particular niche. You know, I consider myself more of like a general orthodox apologist. You know, I don't have like one particular niche and you know, I think that there are guys out there who they devote all this time. This is kind of what I'm trying to do with. Mormonism is kind of trying to like, you know, that's going to be one of my niche points, right, that I can offer.
Speaker 1:But, to your point, like you know, a lot of these guys have specific gifts in particular areas, right. Right, and even just like, their tone and approach, right, might be different from somebody else. Maybe there's somebody out there who they need you to tell them they're jacked up. Maybe there's somebody else out there who maybe has more of a tenderness and a compassion to the way they approach it. And so each of those people but guess what? That person that needed to be told something firm, they probably are going to be totally turned off by the person that's super tender. So you never know, right, like everybody has a different need, right, and so in that sense, it's really God working to meet people where they're at Amen, like exactly what they need.
Speaker 2:Right, and to your point.
Speaker 2:I'm going to say this this is for the audience. Yeah, kind of putting this on its head, she make a great point and to be critical of this or that apologetic approach. It is so easy to condemn or to judge or to lambast someone's sincere what we believe is a sincere approach to their apologetics, whether it's tough love, whether it's using sometimes harsh words, harsh language, these types of things, words, harsh language, these types of things. I would just ask that the audience please do what I believe is the christian approach assume the best in that person, assume that god is working through that person to reach someone that you may not be reaching. Yeah, I, I just want to say that because it's kind of the other side of this coin, right, right, yes, there's a lot of apologists. No, they may not always appeal to everybody, but as the world out there, we, as audiences ourselves, we need to give a lot of latitude to these online apologists who, I believe, by and large, are sincere people trying to spread the gospel in the way that they think is best.
Speaker 1:And it's hard. I mean it's look like Proverbs says like, keep your mouth shut and you'll stay out of trouble. The problem with being an apologist is it's hard to keep your mouth shut because you're out defending the faith. That means you're talking a lot. It means you're going to get in trouble. You're going to say things that get you in trouble. Once in a while you might slip slip up and say something wrong, right, and then you're going to be criticized for that, and that's part of the game.
Speaker 1:You know that's part of that's part of what we do as apologists, um, but it's, it's to your point, um, like you know I need to have that grace for my fellow apologists, right, and as people like we ask you give us grace, we're doing our best. Or just, you know we're learning, we're living the christian life. You know we're trying to live the Orthodox life ourself. You know, like um, at the end of the day, like we all live, in essence, the same Orthodox life, which is really just summed up in the the Jesus prayer, right, right, that's, that's, that's the Orthodox life we only forgive to Sunday.
Speaker 1:Yes, I actually. Um. Yeah, there was a dear parishioner at our parish on Forgiveness Sunday. We didn't have direct back and forth, but there was definitely some animosity there and Forgiveness Sunday was just so blessed because we both just looked at each other. We were like we owe each other some extra forgiveness today. Love that.
Speaker 2:Love that man. Well, anything you want to kind of close us out with, Gosh, I would just say that proper catechesis is so important.
Speaker 1:That's what I would end with and, um, you know, actually, I'll shout out father paul truchenbach, out in salt lake city, has an excellent youtube series. Uh, that's uh catechesis, and I think it's a 10-part series. I can't remember exactly how many parts it is, but it's a full orthodox catechesis and even if, even if you were well catechized at your, at your parish, like um, it's still a good series to watch.
Speaker 2:It's wonderful. Can I plug one as well? I love that you did that. Uh, everyone knows, I'm sure, who's listening right now, but Pachistic, nectar, their app, they. Father Josiah Trenum also has a catechesis. It's hours and hours and hours of content. Awesome stuff. We are constantly catechumens, aren't we Amen?
Speaker 1:Well, when I converted from Protestantism, you know, I thought I knew everything as a Protestant, you know, it's like I knew the Bible back and forth and converted to Orthodoxy, I'm like, wow, I'm like a baby, I'm a baby in the faith.
Speaker 2:Yeah, learning 2,000 years of church history is a tall order. All right, awesome Ben. Thank you very much, man. God bless.