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Are Works Necessary For Salvation? An Orthodox Response to Jakob Wendesten | YBT016 CWP095
Is faith alone enough to unlock the gates of heaven? Join us as we unravel this profound question with our guest Jacob, who sheds light on the centuries-old debate surrounding the role of good works in salvation. Our discussion navigates through the contrasting beliefs of Protestant, Catholic, and Orthodox Christianity, challenging the traditional notion of faith as the sole key to salvation. With scripture as our guide, from the book of James to the teachings of Christ, we reconsider how forgiveness and good works might factor into the divine equation.
Venturing further, we explore the Orthodox Christian viewpoint, which sees salvation not as a singular event, but as an ongoing, transformative journey towards the divine. This episode illuminates the concept of theosis and how Orthodox theology understands justification as the beginning of a deepening relationship with God. Whether you're well-acquainted with theological discourse or simply intrigued by diverse Christian doctrines, our conversation promises to challenge and enrich your understanding of faith, works, and salvation's true path.
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Are good works necessary for salvation.
Speaker 2:All right. So let's be clear here, Jacob. First and foremost, this question really is a question between Protestants and Catholics. However, we can offer a response, but please beware that, just as Callistos Ware clearly pointed out, I think even in the passages that you read merit is not part of the Orthodox understanding of salvation, and so Salvation comes prior to and totally apart from any works.
Speaker 2:There is no works salvation, there is no salvation by works, there's no merit system, there's no earning your salvation within Orthodoxy. That being said, the question you seem to really be asking is is faith alone sufficient for salvation? And though I'll say quickly it's often noted, jacob, that it's important to get rid of Protestant presuppositions to even be able to begin to understand the Orthodox perspective. That's how vastly different the Eastern phronoma is compared to Western Christianity, catholic, protestant combined.
Speaker 2:Are good works necessary for salvation honest and combined Are good works necessary for salvation. We read in James what does it profit a man If someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith it's implicit here can faith alone save him? And what is the answer, jacob, faith by itself, faith alone, if it does not have works, is what Is dead.
Speaker 1:Why do I reject the Eastern Orthodox view of salvation?
Speaker 2:See, jacob, you say here that you believe that faith alone is the instrument of salvation. And yet here listen to Christ's words himself. For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. Your heavenly father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your father forgive your trespasses. So I ask you, is it not absolutely necessary, jacob, in a normative sense we're not talking about thief on the cross stuff here Can you deny that it's absolutely necessary to do at least one thing, and that is forgive your brother their trespasses and sins?
Speaker 1:Where I would differ here is that I don't work for salvation, as Timothy or Callistus Ware says. I work because of salvation.
Speaker 2:Now perhaps you'll answer yes, it is necessary, but it's not necessary for salvation. But, as you were saying, it's necessary because of salvation. But, jacob, I don't think you'll answer that way because, quite frankly, that puts the entire thing on its head right. The passage does not say because your sins are forgiven, you should therefore forgive others their sins. Perhaps you're going to answer no, it's not necessary, not for salvation, but only that our sins will be forgiven. But I don't again think that you'll answer that way either because, obviously, to separate forgiveness from salvation, god has saved you, but he hasn't forgiven you.
Speaker 1:Orthodox Christian friends see justification as more of a transformative process of being united with Christ.
Speaker 2:Now here I have to correct you, jacob, the Orthodox do not see justification as an ongoing process. The ongoing process that you might be thinking of is theosis, right, which you know, which is the continual, eternal growing closer in and growing closer to the nature of God. You see, justification, jacob and I hope you hear this, it's very important because it's not that dissimilar from what you hold as a Protestant and that is justification. In justification, by faith, we are reconciled to God, right. We were at once at war with God. We are once at enmity with God, right, as Paul points out. And now, having been justified by faith, we've been reconciled to God. We've been brought into right relationship with God. But you see the differences, jacob.
Speaker 2:As Orthodox, we see that as the beginning of the relationship, not I hope you're not saying that justification, as some Protestants do, is the end all. Once you're justified, that's it. You're saved, throw away the key, you're going to heaven, baby. I don't think you're saying that. In the Orthodox view, which is a view much more akin to your heart, justification is rather the beginning, the first step of the race that Paul talks about. You might find this interesting. This point is actually borne out in some translations, for example, romans 5.1 and then NASB. Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we also have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace by which we stand. So this idea of the introduction, the beginning of this race, that's the view of justification and orthodoxy.
Speaker 1:I do believe that we can have complete assurance of salvation, and many of my Orthodox friends seem to be a little bit hesitant to say that.
Speaker 2:And here, Jacob, not hesitant at all, we have the assurance of salvation. Read the passages right. There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. You see, we hold these passages as banners, just like you do.
Speaker 1:I do believe that we can have complete assurance of salvation.
Speaker 2:We can say right along with the author of Hebrews, for we have become partakers of Christ if we keep the beginning of our commitment firm until the end. In other words, jacob, we absolutely have the hope and the assurance of salvation. As Paul points out, we are new creations in Christ. However, you know just as well as I do that that assurance and that security is in Christ, is in God and in God's will for our lives. His saving grace is in God and in God's will for our lives, his saving grace. But we know that willfully, god forbid, it is possible that Christians will fall away from the faith, will not endure until the end, as Hebrews warns again and again.
Speaker 1:Although I also do think that I do emphasize the grace of God and much more.
Speaker 2:And yeah, sorry, Jacob, can't give you this one. Sounds a little bit too like our Calvinist friends who point out well, we believe in the sovereignty of God way more than you guys do. It's just not accurate.
Speaker 1:I reject the Eastern Orthodox view of salvation.
Speaker 2:So, again, to close this up, I want to remind you of James, for as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead. My brother, you have the spirit, but you lack the body. You're not part of the body of Christ in an orthodox sense and therefore your interpretations and your intent towards scripture and from scripture is a beautiful thing, and your intent towards Scripture and from Scripture is a beautiful thing, but it's Lone Ranger theology at this stage. No-transcript.