Cloud of Witnesses Radio
Audio drama retellings of the stories of the Christian Saints, Panel Discussions, Cast Commentary, Reaction Videos, Screwtape Returns, and more!
Cloud of Witnesses Radio
Orthodox Journeys: A Family's Path from Diverse Faith to Spiritual Orthodox Unity | TIO013 CWP093
Cindy and Jeff share their journey from Protestantism to Orthodox Christianity, revealing the challenges and triumphs of navigating faith and family dynamics. They discuss the significance of community, traditional practices, and finding inspiration through the lives of saints.
• The personal struggle with faith transitions
• The importance of community in supporting faith journeys
• Men finding deeper connections within Orthodox tradition
• The impact of parenting on spiritual growth
• Engaging with the lives of saints and their relevance today
• Cindy's initiative, Seeking Theosis, blending faith and everyday living
Thank you for journeying w/ the Saints with us!
What are you doing? You know like you're praying. You're praying to dead people or this is like. This is a doctrine of demons being in a marriage. I am going to follow my husband's lead.
Speaker 2:The fact that we can ask a Christian who has lived a holy life to pray for us. And if he believes that this is, you know where God is guiding him, and I just think it is amazing that we have these, the cloud of witnesses, watching over us.
Speaker 1:He believes that this is right for our family. I am going to respect that.
Speaker 2:And that we can ask them for help and that they could pray for us in the Lord too, and that they're closer to the Lord.
Speaker 1:I respected it and then I did my own personal research about orthodoxy. I think that was like the major challenge, like loss of relationships and yeah.
Speaker 3:I came to Orthodoxy, guys. As I mentioned to you earlier, I came out of Calvinism.
Speaker 1:I started following people on Instagram and like learning more online.
Speaker 3:The pastor told my parents.
Speaker 1:You know, and it was just I was getting all these great resources and researching for myself, and that was when I'm like you know what, honey, I think you're on to something right.
Speaker 3:Quote your son has left the church.
Speaker 1:And so, like I was, I was following him already, but I now it's like my personal, like I'm convicted, this is, this is true, yeah.
Speaker 3:Today we're interviewing husband and wife Cindy and Jeff. Cindy's channel is Seeking Theosis on Instagram. Cindy Jeff welcome.
Speaker 2:Hi everybody. Yes, so my name is Jeff Dale. I'm currently in the Army currently also away from my family, unfortunately but I'm in Fort Leonard Wood, missouri. I served in the Marine Corps prior to my enlistment in the Army here, so I'm getting Marine Corps prior to my enlistment in the Army here. So I'm getting advanced training in my new MOS. But we recently also finished being catechumens here a few months ago and we're baptized as a family. I'll let Cindy speak a little bit to you here, but that's where we're at.
Speaker 1:Yeah, hi, I am Cindy and I'm a stay-at-home mom, homeschooling mama, just trying to take care of these three kids while my husband's away. But, yeah, we're trying to live liturgically as well as we can in this journey. You guys were not always Orthodox Absolutely. Well, I guess we can start with how my parents raised us. So my mom was raised as a Roman Catholic and my dad was Buddhist and when they, you know, to get married, my grandfather wanted him to convert to Catholicism. So he did to marry my mother.
Speaker 1:So we were raised in the Roman Catholic Church, growing up, um, probably up until like what? Middle school. And then my dad he actually converted back to Buddhism and, um, we moved from, we lived in New Jersey. When we moved from New Jersey to Arizona, um, we stopped going to church. Um, it wasn't really much of like a motivation to like go to church anymore. Um, especially since my dad converted back to buddhism and a lot of our vietnamese culture like, for example, we just had chinese new year, things like that very, um, very similar in like traditions to like the buddhism and like the spirituality, things like that so I grew up seeing a lot of that um, but I always knew there was a God, you know, and there was one God and I just never like thought to, ever like seek food, the Buddhist practices, even though my dad was very, um, you know, uh, he was practicing and um, so growing up I just kind of just, you know, I knew the God, or I knew of a God.
Speaker 1:And you know, in high school, that's when I was introduced to Protestantism and I started going to church with some friends and, yeah, I just decided, ok, like you know, I wasn't. I guess I wasn't catechized, not my parents fault, but wasn't catechized well, as a child. So I guess I didn't understand. And when you read the Bible, I'm like, oh, you should not call anyone father. Why do we call the priest father? Just reading from the Bible alone, I didn't have any of that context. It was very easy to fall into the Protestant church.
Speaker 3:Can I jump in there? It's really, really interesting. Um, so when you kind of started going, uh, to a Protestant church or like you said, you were maybe spending time with Protestant friends is what it sounds like. So you knew even then that that position was in some way against or or contrary to Catholicism is. Did I hear that correctly?
Speaker 1:Yes, I did. Yes, I mean the Catholic church was. You know, there was so much beauty in the Catholic church, but in Protestantism I just felt like I was, I was researching, I was seeking, seeking like truth, truth, and I was trying to find that. And, um, you know, I've had friends who were also, uh, converted from Catholicism and they're like, oh, you know, like the mega churches, and it just feels good and just, you know, and it's not boring. You know, that's kind of from a young, you know, teenagers perspective. It's like, oh yeah, this is the church I want to go to. It's like this is a fun church, you know. So yeah, that's yeah.
Speaker 3:Very interesting. Interesting that you didn't. You said that you really never felt a pull towards Buddhism. Can you speak to that at all? Is that you mentioned that you weren't maybe catechized necessarily super thoroughly, but maybe it sounds like enough of it. Was there that you believed in the Christian God. Is that true?
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, Was it confusing having your father go back to Buddhism. Actually, you know, it was never confusing. So it was just like my mom and then my dad, and we always spent time with my dad's other family so a lot of them have um, immigrated from Vietnam to New Jersey and so we were just raised around my family and they were all Buddhists. So, even though they were all Buddhists and my mom was the only, you know, christian, I was just like you know it, just never. I was just like you know it, just never.
Speaker 1:I, okay, I went to a temple one time and, um, I told them, you know, I don't believe in this stuff, I believe in God. And I stepped on a pillow as a child and there was a needle sticking up and it poked me and even like I told everyone, oh, I stepped on the needle, um, there was in the one of the pillows, the kneeling prayer pillows, and they said, well, that's because you don't believe in Buddha, you know. And they were trying to make it seem like you know, this is, uh, you're being um, like punished or something. And so I'm like, no, I don't believe in Buddha. I just, I, just I never believed, you know. So, even as a child I was very, you know, believed that there was God and um in the Christian God and just Buddha. Just never crossed my mind to be like this is real, you know. Wow.
Speaker 3:I'm going to say it. I'm just going to say it.
Speaker 1:Okay, go ahead.
Speaker 3:You were seeking theosis even then.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes.
Speaker 3:Very cool. No, that cool, no, that's. That's. Yeah. It's hard not to see in some way, maybe the, the preserving. You know power of god, even back then and you know, you didn't know it very interesting so, yeah, jeff yourself. What's uh tell us, maybe about your background. Were you raised in the faith? What was uh, what was some of your story there?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I was, uh, I was raised Southern Baptist actually, and we would kind of um go between Southern Baptist church or non-denominational Um. But yes, my, my family was very I mean, they're, and they still are, you know devout Protestants, um and uh. So, yeah, I spent my whole life going to Sunday school, doing church events, going to vacation, bible school, I guess the. I started asking questions after I had left my family home and, like was off on my own. Honestly, as soon as I left the house, I kind of stopped going to church and I didn't think of it as like it wasn't obvious to me that I was just not strong in my faith. If you would have asked me if I'm a Christian, I would have always have said, yeah, I'm a Christian, of course, and I could kind of regurgitate, you know some of the key points there. But the truth was it really wasn't my, I didn't feel the faith was my own.
Speaker 1:And when I went to the.
Speaker 2:Marine Corps too. It's a spiritually dark world. I was an infantryman too, so there weren't a ton of Christian guys hanging out and so I kind of just stumbled like into basically a non-Christian lifestyle, yeah. But I guess what kind of helped me start the journey, even years before looking into orthodoxy again, was getting married to Cindy and I just kind of felt this pull like hey, you know what, you're the head of a household. Now you need to start like getting your act together and start answering some. I. I was really starting to question like what I believed. And so, oddly enough and we can talk about it more, I suppose, and it's funny but we still kind of stumbled with not uh, we stumbled to a Christian movement that was very strict. It's the Hebrew roots. I don't know if you've heard of that movement. It's called Hebrew roots, hebrew roots movement it's.
Speaker 3:It's almost like a are these like the torah observer guys?
Speaker 2:yes, yes, okay yeah, so kind of stumbled into that. I'm like this must be what the original christians did, which is kind of silly looking at it now but so interesting.
Speaker 2:But in my, in my perspective too, just because of my upbringing like there's no way like orthodoxy in my mind, which is that that's Catholic and there's no way the Catholics are right, so we wouldn't even consider looking into that direction. Um, so yeah, we kind of went into this ultra um, I mean, it's like it's, it's a weird mix of like Judaism and Protestantism which is. But you know, after, after that, for a couple, I would say almost a year, kind, I was like, ah, this is getting kind of weird. I'm curious, Jeff say it, what got kind of?
Speaker 3:weird. What was it that?
Speaker 2:you were like, I guess I'm not trying to bash them, but it's like we're not Jewish, but we're LARPing like we're Jewish. And that's where I was like, okay, this Jewish, but we're LARPing like we're Jewish, you know. And that's where I was like, okay, this is. You know, we were wearing the zeet, zeets, you know, the uh, yes and uh, it was starting to become like what are we doing? I just kind of had like a moment of clarity and be like what are we doing?
Speaker 3:Um, and then yeah, so you start asking the question what did Christ fulfill? Right, if we're still doing all that stuff. What did he fulfill?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I was. I was talking to a friend of mine and he was, he was kind of talking about he's like, oh, you're like a modern day, like Judaizer, like the guys who are like the circumcision thing and that's.
Speaker 2:It's funny because that's a point that they push is like, if you're a little bit but just went right back to a Protestant church, kind of looked into Calvinism, I guess I was looking for a more serious form. There's just something about the modern day. Like I said, I'm not trying to bash, but the modern day Protestant church. It kind of has very theatrical worship services and stuff and they just wasn't sitting right with me. So we were searching services and stuff and they just wasn't sitting right with me. So we were searching, um, and that's when, just kind of randomly, on youtube, I just started opening myself up to the idea of, like, what if the catholics have got it right? And then from catholicism I discovered orthodoxy and wow, you know, it's just kind of a. I mean youtube, I know, uh, can be a dangerous place as far as like if you're trying to get all your information off there. But it also was helpful for us to be honest with you 100, so super interesting.
Speaker 3:Uh, both of you. I want to back up a little bit, because you guys covered a lot of stuff and I find very fascinating. Um, just ironically again, the parish that I attend here in san diego, if you were to have someone or a group, we were all there and say, hey, raise your hand if you're here because of online orthodoxy or online sources, I kid you not. 70, 75 of them would raise their hands, no joke. Um, to the point where yesterday we literally had a gathering with Father John and Father Nathan those are our two primary priests and the entire young adult group. We all got together and we had a discussion about online orthodoxy, like how to maneuver it, how to understand it, how to navigate it in terms of, like you said, there's a lot of dangers out there, but there's also a lot of beautiful, beautiful content that is bringing thousands, hundreds of thousands of people to orthodoxy.
Speaker 1:Let's see. So I went to college. I went to Grand Canyon University, which is a Christian college and a Christian university, and you know, there that's started going to, you know, church shopping with my friends, right, Like trying to figure it out. We have chapel every, what was like Mondays, and you know, it's always seems like some like a rock concert every, every time we go to chapel, and then we would try to seek that when we, you know, look for churches and you know.
Speaker 3:So that appealed to you, Cindy, on some level, like you at the time. Yeah, Understood.
Speaker 1:At the time it was just very, it was very emotional for me. It was just, you know, it really pulled at the heartstrings of you know, I just felt, so I was dealing with a lot like personally and I think it was just really, you know, hitting all the pulling out of heartstrings, and so I was searching for that, you know, and, um, you know, with my friends they would talk about how you know they have all these gifts, like gifts of tongues and, um, uh, prophet, what is it? Prophetic gifts?
Speaker 1:and things like that, yeah, and you know I, you know I was really starting to feel like man, am I not saved or am I not? You know, and it was a very like I was, very I was searching a lot during this time in college and you know, I am grateful for that journey because I don't think I would have met Jeff and um, you know, because I don't think he was looking for a Catholic girl or anything at that time either, but um, it was just it was meant to be at that moment, because, you know now look where we are today.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, so I want to. I want to dwell on this a little bit because there's a. I want to get your thoughts, both of you guys, on this. I don't know if what you guys are seeing in your parishes, um, but I can tell you it seems to be the case in most Orthodox parishes across the country. There's a lot of young men coming into orthodoxy. Men, right, um, not a lot of ladies, uh, you know the ratio at our parish, for example. I mean, it's we joke around, we, we joke that we're gonna have to turn it into a monastery because there's just not. You know, don't get me wrong, more, more women are starting to come, slowly but surely, but it's definitely, you know, there's a lot, a lot of young men in our parish, which is, you know, a beautiful thing, um, but we've posited, we've kind of thought some of it is maybe because of some of that stuff you were talking about, cindy, which is mega church, you know, rock concert style, you know Bethel Hillsong type. Christianity seems to appeal to females more than men.
Speaker 2:Uh, so it's yeah, when I would, I would go to. You know if, when I was coming home from the Marines especially go home to my mom's church, and you know mom's church and the service you would start out with a worship service. There was something to me that did seem it was a little bit. It sounds harsh, but I would say it's kind of effeminate, I don't know how else to put it. I would think that I would just have fun. I remember thinking my brother would be there too, who was also a Marine. I'd be like man, these guys are a bunch of sissies, you know, and it's. You know, it's maybe not fair, but it's just kind of we would. We would make jokes like that and I but in, you know, but in all seriousness, it did kind of bug me. I'm like this isn't my kind of music. I don't really feel like I'm worshiping. I can't get into it. I just want this part of the service to be over.
Speaker 3:So, jeff, pardon me for jumping in, but cause I, I, I love this and I want to. I want to kind of narrow in on this. So when that was happening, you're there, you're in church. It's during the worship part. People don't have their eyes closed or you know, their hands are up, all that stuff. Are you saying that you never? That didn't feel comfortable to you that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, even as a, even as a kid, I never really participated. I never felt. I never felt the, the and uh, my brothers too, we're just, you know, and we were in, you know, especially in high school in Tennessee. It's a Bible belt, you know. Everybody would, you know, participate in the, you know, raising the hands and close your eyes, but I just never felt comfortable doing it, never felt like it was real, and so I just wouldn't stand there. But that's just, you know. I think that might just be my personality as well, a little bit, but I just never really felt like it was actually the Holy Spirit moving me to do anything. I would just kind of be there.
Speaker 3:So I'm with you 100%, jeff. I had exactly the same experience. I should sorry I haven't said this yet I should say this I was raised. I actually went to a Baptist private school from preschool all the way through my freshman year of high school and then from there after those kind of non-denominational it was Baptist but it was dispensational, it was very non-denominational. From there I actually did dive into Calvinism pretty heavily for a number of years. I was very Calvinistic, reformed and then eventually I came to Orthodoxy. Just so you guys are aware of my background. Sorry, I should have said that sooner. So, cindy, can you talk about that a little bit? You, on the other hand, in those services, there was something there, like you said, it was maybe meeting you where you were at at the time. Yes, do you have thoughts now? What are your thoughts in terms of women and women in Orthodoxy and women coming to Orthodoxy?
Speaker 1:you know, I think, after coming out of that emotion, like very emotionally driven you know, protestantism I, or rock concert worship time I've learned that feelings are fleeting, right, and it's, it's, you know, we need, we need context around, like because I used to struggle with my friends saying, like, why, why don't I feel the Holy Spirit moving in me like you? Or like, why do you feel, why do you seem so much more spiritual than me, like I? You know everyone's journey is different, right, but I just could not. You know, sometimes I would feel like it'll hit me and sometimes it wouldn't. And then I'm like, am I not, like, getting close? Am I not growing closer to the Lord? Am I or am I just, you know, stagnant in this relationship? Like I don't, I don't even know.
Speaker 1:So, coming to the Orthodox church, I've learned about, you know, the church really helps foster. When I'm not feeling, when I'm feeling distant, the Orthodox Church really just gives the fullness of it and nurtures you, even in the moments when I'm feeling distant. Right, because there's so much depth in there, feeling distant, right, because there's so much depth in there, there's so much beauty and there's just so much more that the church offers than these little moments of you know what's the word.
Speaker 3:Kind of fleeting emotional experiences, just a very emotional experience.
Speaker 1:Yes, exactly yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's interesting, jeff, did you have?
Speaker 2:particular thoughts in terms of why you think so many men are coming into orthodoxy at this present time. Yes, I do. I think it's because, like I said, it's weird, because I'm not saying that people Protestants are not taking their faith or Catholics are not taking their faith seriously, but orthodoxy with its tradition, that you can, you can trace back, um, it just seems to have something solid and something I don't know. It just resonates. It resonates with me, for sure I don't need I know, of course we do see a lot of. I even in our church we saw a lot of guys, you know, come in without any ladies. You know they were, they were Even in our church. We saw a lot of guys come in without any ladies. They were single guys coming in by themselves. I don't know, there's just something that speaks to it. It's just a seriousness that the orthodoxy takes for itself. I don't know, it's very I don't know. I don't know what.
Speaker 1:I'm trying to say it's like the reverence.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's a reverence and a respect that just seems that you can't find somewhere else, right.
Speaker 3:And you can't. You can't because I hear you 100% and you can't. What's the word? You can't synthesize it right. It's not something you can just kind of whip up. You know you can, but it's like Cindy was saying it's fleeting.
Speaker 3:I've been in some, some very reverential Protestant services over the years. Back from those years, you know probably one or two or three I can think of it was a very particular night for their own particular reasons and in those moments it felt I did feel close to God. But that was far and few between Right, what I would say, how I kind of describe it, and describing Cindy, I think, what you were saying as well. I call it scaffolding. I look at the history of the church, the entire edifice that is orthodoxy, the beautiful history of the creed, the saints, the fathers of the church, the ecumenical councils, right All of that. The sacraments, confession, unction, right these things. Marriage, how marriage is viewed in the church, unction, right these things. Marriage, how marriage is viewed in the church, obviously, the Eucharist. I call it scaffolding, meaning it's this stuff that's there around us to help us when it's not easy, to help us when we're not feeling it like you were saying, cindy, right, it's, it's there to help hold us up when we can't really hold ourselves up anymore.
Speaker 3:And I felt as a Protestant for so long I had to okay, it's church time. I got to rev myself up to feel this, because if I'm not feeling it, what's the point? At least that's how I felt in some of those years. Very interesting, you guys. So how, and either one of you can go first, felt, you know, in some of those years. Very interesting, you guys. So uh, how, and either one of you can go first. You decide maybe, jeff, we'll start with you this time. Okay, how did you first hear about orthodoxy?
Speaker 2:So I was going to? I got out of the Marines, Uh, I was going to a small Christian school, San Diego Christian College. Oh, really, A little Christian school. Actually, Tim LaHaye started the school the guy who wrote the Left Behind series.
Speaker 3:Yeah, 100%. Did you say San Diego?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we were in San Diego up until pretty recently.
Speaker 3:I think Cindy had mentioned that. Okay, that's very cool.
Speaker 2:But yeah, so I started going there and I actually became became like one of my favorite professors. There was a really smart guy. He was the Bible history teacher and I didn't take his Bible history class, but I would ask him questions and I don't know what really. I was asking him a series of questions and it kind of turned into questions about Catholicism, because we're talking about church history and in my mind the church history is Protestant. So it kind of blew my mind. I'm like, oh, like there really weren't like what we see today, wasn't kind of like what it was a long time ago. And you know, it is kind of like, well, it looks really Catholic, you know. But yeah, we did, and it's funny, we don't even talk Nobody ever even talks about the orthodox, which is to go straight to catholic.
Speaker 2:But, um, from there I just started digging into church history, uh, and it's like whoa man, it was a bunch of really new ideas, ideas, um, and what really started getting me was, uh, communion, it was starting to that. I'd never really, you know, taken the thought seriously. This is the actual body and blood of christ. And I started talking to my older brother and we started going down the rabbit hole and we both were just kind of like, you know, showing each other more and more. And then from there I started discovering Orthodoxy.
Speaker 2:I'm like, oh you know, I thought these guys were Catholic. And so then it just got into more discussions about the filioque and I'm by no means an expert, but that's where I'm just like, okay, the Orthodox seem to, they seem to get it the way I think and the kind of the way that I feel about things. And so from there I just started watching more and more. I actually did visit a Orthodox church as well. I don't remember what the name of it was, but it was a really, really beautiful church in San Diego, near Pacific beach, I'm not sure.
Speaker 3:I wonder. Well, it might have been St Anthony's, which is where I attend.
Speaker 2:I think it might have been. I'm not 100% sure.
Speaker 3:If it's right by PB, it might be St George Serbian. They weren't.
Speaker 2:Serbian. Oh, it wasn't Serbian. It wasn't Serbian.
Speaker 3:Okay, because that's a beautiful church. They have mosaics like the real mosaic icons. It's gorgeous in there. So I wonder. I mean there's a good number of Orthodox churches in San Diego, thanks be to God, but I'm thinking of one near PB. I want to say you might have been at St Anthony's.
Speaker 2:You know what St Anthony's does sound really familiar. I want to say is there like a school there too?
Speaker 3:Well, we have a school building now, but I don't think there was back then.
Speaker 2:Okay, I'm not 100% sure, but either way, I snuck there because. I kind of fibbed everybody. I said, okay, well, I'm going to go to church, I'm going to go here. Then I went over to an Orthodox church just to check it out.
Speaker 1:That kind of fibbed everybody.
Speaker 2:I said, okay, well, I'm going to go to church, I'm going to go here. Then I went over to an Orthodox church just to check it out. That kind of sealed the deal. I poked my head in there. That was the first time I went to a divine liturgy, just by myself. I left, cindy. I said I don't want to take you here, just in case there's something weird going on.
Speaker 3:Okay, so interesting. Okay, so we've got to fill in some gaps a little bit here. Okay, sorry, Because last time we left off I thought Cindy was just getting out of college or college-ish. Maybe we need to talk about you guys now. Okay, when did you guys meet? And if I'm hearing you correctly, you both were not. You were obviously still Protestant.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 3:Okay, so maybe right before going into that, cindy, how did you first hear about orthodoxy?
Speaker 1:Well, through my husband, um, so he, you know, he's like I'm going to divine liturgy. I'm like, okay, you know, like whatever. And you know I was very we were going to um, a reform church at that time and I, you know, had my group of friends and you know we're like, okay, yeah, we found our home church. So, whatever you do what you need to do and figure it out for us, because I will follow your lead. When we did with the Hebrew Roots movement and all these other churches, I follow your lead. But I really loved our Reformed church at the time and so my husband, he started going, or he went once you went once, right, yeah, you went once, and he really liked it Is this the time, Jeff, that you didn't tell her?
Speaker 2:Well, no, it's, I told her. I just wasn't telling everybody like my family or anything, but even Cindy was a little bit like, what are you doing? Like, are you sure about this? I'm like I just want to go see. I just want to go see what it's all about.
Speaker 1:So, um, yeah, that happened, and we, right off, I think right after he visited um, we actually had to move to Arizona. So, um, right after this, maybe like within a few, like few months of um his visit, we moved to Arizona, um, and we just decided I was pregnant at the time and we just decided, let's just go. We don't have um, like his family, to, like you know, say what are you doing? You know, and my family they kind of, it's not that they don't care, but they don't really, you know. So we're like, okay, let's just go. And we started going and it just felt like we, we were home, we found, we found the true church, you know, like it was, it was beautiful.
Speaker 3:Where did you guys, uh, where did you first attend? In Arizona?
Speaker 1:I'm just curious St George, St George Antiochian church in Scottsdale.
Speaker 3:In Scottsdale. Okay, yeah, I have friends that have been there. Um, I've been to a few Orthodox churches in in, um, the Phoenix area. Um, I gotta say, cindy, that's it is a very beautiful thing and a a thing you don't hear a lot, um, you know, even sometimes in Christian circles and and so I want to touch on it a little bit you, you said that you were, you were going to follow your husband, you were going to, you were going to follow your husband, you were going to, you were willing to to honor his decision. Yeah, what's talk to us about that?
Speaker 1:being in a marriage, I am going to follow my husband's lead and if he believes that this is you know where god is guiding him and, um, he believes that this is right for our family, I am going going to respect that, and so I respected it. And then I did my own personal research about orthodoxy. So, you know, I started following people on Instagram and like learning more online, you know, and it was just I was getting all these great resources and researching for myself. And that was when I'm like you know what, honey, I think I think you're onto something Right, and so, like I was, I was following him already, but I now it's like my personal, like I'm convicted this is this is true, yeah.
Speaker 3:That's awesome. That's a. It's a beautiful thing, guys. It's a. It's a beautiful thing to hear. That's really amazing.
Speaker 2:Um, so, honestly and kind of like, shockingly, my family wasn't, they were, um, I think they were shocked that they weren't openly hostile about it. Um, that just was kind of more like well, I hope you know what you're doing. You know, um, I did have some friends that were more openly hostile about it. We did and not I wouldn't say we didn't get to like shouting or anything but some people were just saying this is heresy and you're completely off your rocker, even as far as I say you're probably not a Christian. So that was really hard.
Speaker 2:But in my family I feel like, as time has gone on, we've had some difficult conversations, conversations, but it really hasn't been, I think, what. What has happened is where I'll just say, for example, my mother, she says well, you, you, you don't think that I did anything for you, like, you don't think I showed you anything. That was the truth, and so that's that's kind of a hard conversation, but I do credit her with. I think that the process of going to sunday school and learning the bible has helped. If anything, it has helped me now. I understand the context a little bit differently now, but I'm very thankful that you know that family, uh, that my family was baptist and that they do. They do love the lord in their way, um so hopefully we'll get them converted soon, but it's, it's, yeah well, hard conversation sometimes.
Speaker 3:yeah, prayer, prayer, prayer. Right, father josiah trenum um, who I'm sure you guys are both familiar with, uh, are you? Are you? Uh, yes, yes, patristic nectar um, he says something which I love. It's beautiful.
Speaker 3:Um, as you know, he, he wrote this book called Rock and Sand, which is, in essence, it's an orthodox response to Protestantism in many ways, and so he was doing a lot of interviews, including by Protestants, about his book. One of them was Gospel Simplicity. I don't know if you guys ever heard his channel. I have. He's a really, really nice guy. We've actually had him on Cloud of Witnesses before and Austin was asking Father Josiah about Protestantism, et cetera.
Speaker 3:And Father Josiah, before he got into any of the stuff, any of the Orthodox stuff, he spent five, ten praising protestantism, like legitimately, like saying, like you said, jeff, you know the, a lot of the bible translations we have right now are because of protestants. You know the um, the zeal, the, the, the missions, pro-life movement, stuff. I mean, he's been into all these things and it's's so true. And I want to say that even now, as a former Protestant, my mom is still a Protestant, my father is still a Protestant, he's still a Calvinist.
Speaker 3:I learned all kinds of things that really set me on the right path and, in many ways, protected me. My parents put me through private Christian school, as I mentioned you know, for all those years and I think it kept me out of a lot of, you know, issues that I probably would have run into if I was in the public school system sooner. So, yeah, so definitely a lot of love for our Protestant brothers and sisters. Yes, and really and that's really a big part of what Cloud of Witnesses is about is hopefully having a conversation. Like you said, jeff, there's no reason for things to start yelling and that doesn't get anybody anywhere.
Speaker 1:Right, let me try to think the challenges. I guess it was mostly our friend groups. Um, you know, we have, we're so grateful for our friend group of um very strong Christian, you know, women and their families, and that's like something I've been searching for so long, especially since we move so often that, um, making friends can be difficult as an adult, right, uh, just moving and trying to get, uh, build these relationships. And so when I had that friend group and we were at the reform church, we're like, we found the church because you know it's strong, bible, bible believing church and interpretation is, you know, uh, on point or whatever.
Speaker 1:We thought and um, so, but when we moved out here, I think you know the challenges was when I told my friends that we're starting to go to Orthodox, uh, an Orthodox church, um, to them, there's just, it's Catholic, it's um, what are you doing? You know, like you're praying, you're praying to dead people or, um, this is like, this is a doctrine of demons, like things like that. That is just was very hurtful because, you know, having who, I thought, like my friend, my friend group, um, you know, we all loved each other and supported each other for them to kind of turn their backs on us as we entered the Orthodox church was very, you know, hurtful, but um, I think that was like the major challenge is like loss of relationships and um, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:When, when I, when I came to orthodoxy guys, as I mentioned to you earlier, I came out of calvinism I was at a presbyterian uh, very, very conservative, you know presbyterian reformed church and, uh, the pastor told my parents quote your son has left the church. And and I was like, wow, I'll never forget that here, of course, you know, as a new Orthodox Christian, I was like left the church. I was like I found the church. So, yeah, so I can resonate, I can resonate with you a lot on that and I and pray, and I'm sure it's true that you guys have found community and friends in the Orthodox Church. Now we can talk a little bit about traveling, which it sounds like. Jeff, obviously, you're in Missouri right now. Cindy, you're in Arizona.
Speaker 3:Yes, yeah, one of the beautiful things. I have a cousin who's got chrismated New Year's Day 2023. So he's also a new Orthodox and he travels a ton for work. He's in Kansas right now, so he gets to go to all these different Orthodox churches he was in I don't even know. He's in Texas. I forget, sorry, I apologize, he's been all over. And one of the fun things we get to do is he'll call me, you know, on a Sunday afternoon or Monday, jeremy, I got to tell you about the parish I was at on Sunday. It was so cool, yeah, and and, and and.
Speaker 3:This is something, and I want to talk to you guys about this because you have, like you said, you've had to move around a little bit. How beautiful is it to be in a church that genuinely it's not just oh, the pastor has similar views, you know, he's also reformed. It's like, no, this is the same church, it's the same sacraments, it's the same liturgy, it's the same liturgy that's been practiced for 1,700 years. Can you guys talk a little bit about that? Does that impact your guys' lives? And maybe, jeff, where you're at now, what's that like at?
Speaker 2:Fort Leonard Wood. There's a church in a neighboring city about an hour away, st James, that I'm trying to get to.
Speaker 3:I'm having some car troubles right now, so wait until next paycheck to get my engine fixed An hour away is not that close either.
Speaker 2:That's tough, yeah, but definitely and I know there's we've had some people reach out that they have their son here. So we're trying to, we're trying to get over there, but that is something that just brings me a lot of comfort too, knowing that, yes, like we, the church is every Sunday, no matter how bad the week has been, we're all going to be doing the same thing together, and I think it's very, it's beautiful and it does bring a lot of comfort. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I think it brings a lot of stability to for our children as in the future, as we move, and you know they can also see that this is how we have done it, for you know, as they're growing up, it's always going to be the same, it's never going to change, and you know so for them to have a home, you know away from home, you know what I mean. So it's just like that. It's very stable and I love that, and it's just constant. What is the average day in your family look like? Well, so I'm a stay-at-home mom and I'm also homeschooling my children, my young children.
Speaker 1:On days where we don't go to well, sundays, on Divine Liturgy days, usually I start the kids with catechism resources. So we're right now reading like visual catechism of the Orthodox church. It's a great book that I'm having like the kids read like just one page a day just to get them like introduced to it and understand why we do what we do, why we believe what we believe. We also have our little prayer corner that we do in the morning and morning prayers. Trying to do that Because I have really young children. I have a one-year-old, almost one-year-old, a three-year-old, four-year-old, now four-year-old, and a six-year-old.
Speaker 1:So trying to just have some sort of routine and see that, you know, having the kids remember okay, like we're going to pray or we're doing that. It's sometimes hard, you, you know keeping a routine, but we're trying. You know, um, and so then we do, like homeschool and, you know, try to remember to be prayerful in our daily lives and, um, there we also try to attend um. So saint ignatius is about an hour away from us, it's in mesa, and they have a co-op of, like other moms too, so we try to make that and connect with other um, orthodox moms and other orthodox you know families and um, yeah, I mean that's usually our day-to-day lives is just trying to really incorporate it all with our children and show them the way, like living liturgically and how the church calendar falls into our lives and you know how that our lives are revolving around the church instead of like, oh, it's just us and us being busy and having our own agenda.
Speaker 3:You know yeah, that's, that's beautiful.
Speaker 2:Um, jeff, yeah, tell us about your, your end of all this so I feel like cindy kind of got the rough end of the stick. It's pretty easy for me. I'm just worried about myself. But luckily, honestly, I'm really glad Cindy's my wife, because she really helps me stay with the fast. So I have a calendar here on my wall that has the church fast days on it. I have my icons, my travel icon corner, here as well. We get up pretty early, we're up when the uh, when the trainees. So basically I'm kind of like I'm not personally in boot camp but in in uh in the training cycle I am. So I get up when the trainees get up. We get up at four in the morning, so get up kind of groggy you know, say my prayers and we're out the door, um, ptn and then, uh, get back. Luckily, um, the chow halls are really great. They have a vegetarian option so I am able to fast with the church when. That's really been a blessing too.
Speaker 3:It's awesome, jeff, what you're describing, what I love. I'm glad you mentioned the fast. We talked about that unity in the church and no matter what parish you're in, it's the same church. How beautiful. Even when you guys are away right now temporarily, you're doing the fast together. Right, we're still fasting together, you as husband and wife and us as brothers and sisters. Right, we're all fasting together. Are you guys Antiochian Orthodox by any chance? Yes, we are, oh great. Yeah, so am I. I was excited to hear, I don't know what your parish pastor said, but we're not fasting all week. This entire week is fast free. So I just want to put that out there, jeff, especially for you. Enjoy it, because Lent is right around the corner.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's coming up.
Speaker 3:Yep, yep. So have you guys Enjoy it, because Lent is right around the corner. Yeah, it's coming up, yep, yep. So have you guys been? Is this going to be your first Lent as an Orthodox Christian? Yes, oh, wow you guys. That's awesome.
Speaker 1:Yes, so we're trying to plan trying to with our children, especially because, like they're young, they don't really understand, like if we were to go vegan or whatever you know. I think it's really important to still like try to show them, like trying to introduce it to them so they can see that this is something that we do, it's so it doesn't become foreign to them when they're older. Because, coming from Protestantism and like fasting, I never really did that, I never really understood that, I never really understood that, and so it is very, still very new to us. And, um, I'm not like trying to to um completely like take away and deprive or anything, but just trying to teach them that this is how we make room for for God and make room in this time, you know, uh, for more prayer, for more, you know um, just time with the Lord, and it's not just about deprivation and like taking out all the, all the things. So just trying to introduce that to our children.
Speaker 3:So Jeff, what, uh, what St name did you take, and can you tell us a little bit about that uh decision and all that?
Speaker 2:Uh, I chose, chose St Martin of Tour, and there's a couple reasons One because he was a soldier, so I like that. But I also just liked he was so kind. And then the story where he gave the beggar his cloak and then he realizes it's Christ when he wakes up from his dream. But it's just like that kindness is kind of rare, and so that's kind of like a model. I would want to be more kind amen amen.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's just so rare these days, and it's also beautiful to see someone um looking out for their fellow man, and you never know if you could be entertaining an angel or even christ.
Speaker 3:So it's powerful. Uh, that passage you mentioned that always has stuck with me. We're going through Luke right now. There's a Bible study that meets at our parish talks to Elizabeth, st John the Baptist's mom, and there's this little phrase, throwaway phrase, and it literally says speaking of the angel when he came in the room and then he proclaimed to her, and I'm thinking this angel walked into the room or appeared in the room or something. But to me that's so meaningful to touch on what you're saying there, jeff, because we don't know right, you don't know when you are entertaining an angel, and I think that spiritual reality is so much more vibrant within orthodoxy. I've experienced Cindy. What about you? What saint's name did you take?
Speaker 1:Saint Amelia, so, mother of Saints, I really, you know, raising children can be very difficult. And Saint Amelia, mother of Saints, mother of St Basil right, yes, mother of St Basil, you know, and mother of many saints, I just looked up to her as an example of you know, this is the role God has given me and I really take this seriously and I want to, you know, raise my children to know like to come to the Lord or, you know, it's not, you know to help them learn more about the Lord and, you know, hopefully in the future, when they're older, they can choose to like continue on this path, um, but just, yeah, I just really take this role, um, seriously. And St Amelia is just a great, wonderful, wonderful example and sometimes, when I'm like in the thick of it, I just look at her icon, I'm like, oh, please, pray for me, let me see yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:Can you guys, can we talk about this just a little bit in terms of? You know, we're all former Protestants here. I don't know about you, but it's still the number one point of contention with my Protestant brothers and sisters, including my father. He always goes back to why do you pray to saints? What you just described, both of you, right. That's beautiful. Right, it's someone you can look up to, someone who lived the Christian faith, right, a soldier in the example of St Martin, jeff, right, who has something in common with you. You know Cindy, that's, you know, this beautiful woman who carried on the faith through her children, right, and how inspiring that is for you. Can you talk a little bit about that, like how the saints interact with you and why that's meaningful?
Speaker 1:Do you want to go first, Andy Sure?
Speaker 2:And actually it's funny you say that, because I think this was one of the biggest hurdles for me to get over as well and the fact that we can ask a Christian who has lived a holy life to pray for us and you know I'm not going to pretend that I fully understand how it works or a Christian who has lived a holy life to pray for us and you know I'm not going to pretend that I fully understand how it works, or but I just think it is amazing that we have these, the cloud of witnesses watching over us, and that we can ask them for help and that they could pray for us to the Lord too, and that they're closer to the Lord as they're, as they're in heaven and living there.
Speaker 2:It's just, yeah, I find it very encouraging and when I finally accepted the truth of that and that that's what Christians have been doing since the very beginning, it was just something else that we can not just rely on ourselves. We have our brothers and sisters in Christ that can pray for us, that, um, like I said, that are already there with the Lord.
Speaker 3:That's beautiful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, like it's, it's possible, you know, and even though like when we're living our day to day lives, like trying to just think about, okay, what, what would they have done in this particular situation, it's very encouraging and just to know that we have that example and that it can be done, it feels very comforting to know that we have brothers and sisters in Christ that have gone through the same journey, very similar journeys 100%.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I've heard it described one way is that we're still here on earth. We're still fighting the fight, we're still running the race right as Paul describes. We're down there, we're in the arena, as Father Josiah talks about, but in the stands, right up in the stands, cheering us on, are all the saints. Cindy, you want to tell us a little bit about your Instagram channel, seeking Theosis? Yes, what was the inspiration behind it? What's your ministry there?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I mean, I started off posting about our journey as catechumens and you know, as we have read the saints every day, I've just become more and more inspired by their lives and I love to cook, I love to bake, especially involving my children. So I started coming up with kid-friendly, fast-friendly, mom-friendly recipes that we could share that relate to the saints, and so I created a peanut butter jelly sandwich and it just resonates because peanut butter jelly sandwich, can I talk about this? Peanut butter jelly sandwich used to be a food for the wealthy, so it was a very like exalted, healthy, you know, very for the rich, okay, and so now it is a affordable but still simple, nutritious meal. And so talking about, for example, the Pharisee, who exalted himself, was very in his, you know, on his pedestal, and then the publican who is humble humility.
Speaker 1:It's just like you know, trying to relate through recipes and trying to teach my children that. And it's just like you know, trying to relate through recipes and trying to teach my children that. And it's just been fun, just a way to connect the saints and make it real for them and just enjoy a little treat or meal together.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, jeremy, just thank you so much for speaking with us, and if I could just leave people with something, it'd be just like I guess that, yeah, people come from you, know all different walks of life and they might be protestant or catholic, but just be kind and, you know, if you don't know the answer, point them to youtube channels like yours and just try to help them.
Speaker 1:help them find the church by just being kind to them and loving amen yeah, yeah and um, I think also experiencing the fullness of the church by attending liturgy, divine liturgy, um, there's nothing like it. You know, we yeah, we could watch online and be on instagram and all that, but man, when you are in it, it is something else. It is beautiful and I really would love to leave that with the audience, is to go, is to make make your way there as you can.