Ortho Responds to Non-Denom Is Prot Doctrine of Justification in Apostolic Fathers | YBT015 CWP090

The episode dives deep into the debate around the Protestant doctrine of justification in relation to early Church teachings. We explore the writings of early Church Fathers, contrasting beliefs about faith and works, and question the continuity of Christ's established Church.

• Examining Protestant views on justification 
• Key insights from early Church Fathers on faith and works 
• Clement's teachings on obedience and justification 
• The hierarchical structure of the early Church 
• Importance of a tangible Church in faith practices 
• Understanding the role of action in salvation 
• Insights from Ignatius of Antioch on church unity 
• Analyzing the Shepherd of Hermas and Epistle to Diognetus 
• Raising questions about the essence of faith today

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Chapters

• 0:00 Early Church Doctrine of Justification Debate
• 5:55 Authority of the Church in Christianity

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Protestant doctrine of justification taught in the early church fathers. Am I not an Eastern Orthodox? Number one, the doctrine of justification? So I would be more aligned with a Protestant understanding of justification. So let me get this straight You're more aligned with a doctrine that came about 1500 years after the inception of the church. No, I would say that I'm more aligned with what I believe is the earliest doctrine. So that would be the doctrine of the apostles, as well as the doctrine of the apostolic fathers, as seen in, for example, 1 Clement and the epistle to Diognetus.

Speaker 1: 0:35

So, according to Jacob, the Protestant doctrine of justification is found in the early church fathers. I'm sorry, it's simply not the case. Take you to this chapter here. This is first Clement, where he says, of course, keeping ourselves far from gossip and slander being justified in deed, not in word, seeming to indicate that we have a action that's taking place, not mere faith. But alas, jacob, you're going to say yes, but Jeremy, two chapters later. But alas, jacob, you're going to say yes, but Jeremy, two chapters later. The first and same Clement says so. We too, who by his will have been called in Christ Jesus, are justified not of ourselves, nor through our own wisdom, or according to understanding or piety, nor yet through the things we have accomplished in purity of heart, but through that faith through which Almighty God has justified all men from the beginning. Right, but see, jacob, the problem gets very complicated for Protestants very quickly.

Speaker 1: 1:31

Clement himself, who was a bishop, wrote so as they preached from country to country this is the growth of the church and from city to city they appointed their first converts. Jacob, are you listening? After testing them by the Spirit, to be the bishop's and deacons of the future believers. Nor was this an innovation, since bishops and deacons had been written of long before. For thus says the scripture Somewhere I will appoint their bishops in righteousness and their deacons in faith. He's quoting Isaiah. Jacob, you say you are a non-denominational Christian. You have no bishop. You are apart from any bishop. You are apart from any bishop. You are outside of the historic church that was established through Clement as well. He's in that line and it continues to this very day. You'll take Clement when he talks about this faith justifying us. And yet, a few chapters later, when Clement is saying this clear and beautiful progression from Christ to his church through the bishops, suddenly you're not so happy with it Suddenly.

Speaker 1: 2:45

The writings of Clement maybe aren't so important, but see here's the kicker Jacob of Clement. Maybe aren't so important, but see here's the kicker Jacob, because Clement isn't done. He goes on to say with clear elucidation for as God lives and the Lord, jesus Christ lives, and the Holy Spirit, the object of faith and hope for the elect, the man who, with humility and eagerness and gentleness, obeys without regret, obeys without regret, the righteous commandments of God, this man will be listed and enrolled in the number of those who are saved through Jesus Christ. The man who, what? Who has faith, no, the one who obeys the righteous commandments of God, this man will be listed and enrolled in the number of those who are saved. But you see, he's also not done even more. Let us not be double-minded, but remain what, steadfast, in hope that we may also receive the reward. They are riddled with insight and practice that does not align at all with your current position. St Ignatius of Antioch, eager, therefore, to use one Eucharist, for there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ and one cup for union with his blood. One sanctuary, as there is one bishop, together about the one church body, not numerous denominations, not non-denominational, but part of and connected to the mission, that is, a church that has a hierarchy, a structure, a real, tangible church on earth, and that church, jacob, exists to this very day. Ignatius goes on. It's not mere faith, he says God is your reward and if you endure everything for him, you will attain to him. If you endure everything. These are actions, this is not faith, this is not a mental ascent.

Speaker 1: 5:04

I read to you now from the shepherd of Hermas, which, as you know, was part of several canons of the New Testament, early lists from the early first centuries in different geographical regions. He says those who have done these things are glorious before God and their place is already with the angels if, if they believe, no, If they continue serving the Lord to the end. Now, jacob, you did point also to the Epistle to Diognetus. Interestingly, as I'm sure you know, it's obviously a very obscure work. They don't know anything about the author, they don't know who it was written to, they know very little about this book. However, it is very interesting and I know you're pointing to one section, one little line in there.

Speaker 1: 5:55

Of course, that mentions faith and justification, but I'd like to point you to this here, in the same epistle, just before, he says then the fear of the law is chanted and the grace of the prophets is known and the faith of the gospels is established and keep on listening and the tradition of the apostles is preserved and the grace of the church exalts. Which grace of the church. If you grieve not, you shall know those things which the word teaches. So, in other words, if you're connected to the church, you will know those things that the word teaches. It is within the church, it's within the body of Christ and again, we're talking about a tangible, real church. This is where scripture is properly elucidated. This is where you get not just quote mining passages that seem to sound like a Protestant version of faith, as it would be elucidated in 2025, but rather the teachings of the church as preserved and as protected and as honed for 2,000 years.

Speaker 1: 7:15

See, jacob, here's the thing One. I love you, brother. We're kindred spirits. I like your brain, I like your style, I like your videos. Okay, I too was a former evangelical who became a Reformed Presbyterian Calvinistic before coming to Orthodoxy. I used to hold a lot of the same concepts and ideas that you hold now. I've been there, done that. My questions that I want you to ask one why quote the church fathers at all if you're not going to take them on a whole. Another question I have for you, jacob, that I would love an answer to is yes or no? Did Christ establish an actual church, an actual church through his apostles, where there was an established hierarchy, a real, tangible, physical hierarchy? You could go down the street and see the bishop and see the presbyter and see the deacons yes or no? And did that church somehow disappear?