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Spiritual Solutions for Breaking Free from Addiction | Dr. Daniel & David Carlson | TLTS015 CWP083
What if addiction is not just a physical affliction but a profound spiritual challenge? Join us as we navigate this compelling question with our esteemed guests, Dr. Daniel Ageze and David Carlson, exploring addiction as a chronic disease influencing the body, mind, and spirit. Delve into the ancient metaphors where the church emerges as a sanctuary of healing, with God as the ultimate healer. Discover the transformative power of the 12-step recovery process, highlighting the necessity of acknowledging a power greater than oneself. Dr. Daniel and David illuminate the spiritual dimensions of addiction, underscoring the importance of embracing spiritual solutions to address these deep-rooted issues. The episode encourages a deep reflection on how spiritual support and vulnerability can be integral to the recovery journey.
We journey through Steps Six and Seven of the recovery process, focusing on humility, prayer, and the importance of dismantling self-made structures for genuine change. Reflecting on the biblical story of the Tower of Babel, we emphasize the need for spiritual healing that surpasses external validation. Joined by Professor Robert Fortuin, David Carlson, Jeremy Stock, and Dr. Daniel, we express gratitude for their invaluable insights and encourage engaging with the resources shared. This episode culminates in a heartfelt prayer, seeking divine guidance on our spiritual journeys. We invite you to continue exploring these themes in future discussions, all while striving to live a spiritually fulfilling life.
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To reach Dr. Daniel Ageze at I AM Recovery
email: i.am.recovery.inc@gmail.com
San Diego County crisis line (1-888-724-7240), National Suicide Prevention Lifeline (1-800-273-8255), National Human Trafficking Hotline (1-888-373-7888), National Sexual Assault Hotline (1-800-656-4673), National Domestic Violence Hotline (1-800-799-7233), and Call 911 if emergency
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The problem with addiction, though, in its essence, is that it attacks us bodily, mentally and spiritually.
Jeremy Stock:Why we're even talking about this. What's the problem right? What's wrong with addiction?
Dr. Daniel Ageze:The word addiction can be used in different ways.
David Carlson:When you're in full-blown addiction. I mean it's. I've seen parents robbed of their kids. I've seen kids robbed of their parents. That substance that you're seeking has taken priority over everything in your life.
Jeremy Stock:People cope in different ways. You have a drink. You know I spend time at the slot machines. Other people watch a lot of movies. What's the big deal?
Dr. Daniel Ageze:Layers to it. So in medicine and how we see it in addiction, it is a chronic disease, right.
Jeremy Stock:Welcome to Cloud of Witnesses Radio. Very excited, we are talking about orthodoxy and recovery. What's our thoughts on this? Can we define, starting with you, doctor, what is the problem?
Dr. Daniel Ageze:Yeah, so you know the word addiction can be used in different ways in society and there's layers to it. So in medicine and how we see it in addiction, it is a chronic disease, right yeah?
Robert Fortuin:there's an interesting metaphor that keeps appearing in the church fathers from ancient days, so this goes back centuries which is the church as the hospital, the church as a place of healing.
Robert Fortuin:And who is the healer? Of course it's God, right, but the church is that place, the body of Christ, where people can come and be healed. So I think that's a beautiful picture that really fits into this problem that we're seeing right, and another thing that we can learn from the church teachings is that sin think of sin as a disordered passion right, we all have passions, we all have desires, and the desires themselves are not bad in themselves, but it's when they become disordered. Themselves are not bad in themselves, but it's when they become disordered. I think what we heard Dr Daniel and David just talk about is that when it takes over life, when it takes over your person and your life and others in the community and your family and whatnot, work, and it interferes with flourishing, when the human person cannot flourish anymore, that that, that what the church has taught about the disordered aspect of, of, of sin, and and, and I think that's what we're seeing here.
Jeremy Stock:Amen, amen. So you know, hopefully we can all admit and agree that addiction is a problem. It's not just part of life, it's a problem that must be addressed. But thankfully, gentlemen, why we're here right now, why we're doing this episode right now, is because there are answers. There are answers, there are success stories. You're looking at one of them right here. When you see David, you, you are seeing stories of faith, repentance, um and life, and so that's why we're here. That's what we want to talk about. So, to get us started in today's discussion as to how we can find that recovery, david, the second step of the 12 steps, can you refresh our memories as to what that is? And we're going to talk about that a bit.
David Carlson:Absolutely. Step two is came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
Jeremy Stock:A power greater than ourselves. Dr Daniel, I'm going to pose something to you that seems to reference God. I come to you and to your practice and I say I'm going to get sober without God. Dr Daniel, what's your response?
Dr. Daniel Ageze:Yeah, that is a tough one, right, a tough one and people are at different places when they come into the recovery Every time we see them. Some are have gone through it, they've seen the actual and David. He read step two. But step one is where you're looking at how powerless you are over that substance and some people have gotten to that level where, like I'm actually powerless, and some are still debating over that. We have to be able to accept help from others and those that actually have achieved recovery Right and not, which is similar to the saints Right, they've done the run, the race, david has done the race, and so we need to be able to listen to people and see, come and see.
Jeremy Stock:That's a perfect segue. Let's listen to David, who's been running the race now for 10 years, cuz. What's your response to that? What's your response to someone who says I'm going to get sober without God?
David Carlson:Oh it's. I mean, I think my response initially to somebody who says I'm going to do it without God would be like okay, sure, you know, um, and I would. I would probably encourage them to continue in their, in their journey to sobriety, but I think at some point, somewhere along the lines, kind of like me, they're going to hit a point where it's undeniable that they're getting help stuff from somewhere, and it's definitely not them, and they can't really identify it, and they'll have to figure that out for themselves. You know, um, at the crutch of this thing, though, I mean a drug problem, although it does have physical aspects and mental aspects, is technically a spiritual problem, and I think a spiritual problem requires the spiritual solution. I think that, wow, you can't make a judgment on something if you haven't tried it. You know, if you've never eaten broccoli, you can't tell me you don't like broccoli. And if you have never tried a spiritual solution, your problem. You can't tell me it's not going to work. Give it a shot.
Robert Fortuin:Yeah, I think the acknowledgement that we are in need, right, that Jesus said that you know, I've come to heal the sick, I've come for the blind, and so I think that seems to be the first step. So, if we think that we can see, if we think that we know we've got life figured out, then well, then, I think we're not really open to receive. And I think, coming back to that beautiful picture of the church as the hospital, well, that implies that, right, there's sick people in the hospital, right? So I think that the patients, right, the people in the church, then all acknowledge that they have a need, that they are at their, you know, deepest core, a need, that they are at their deepest core, sick, if you will, that they infirm and that they are in need of the physician.
Jeremy Stock:What does recovery look like without confession?
David Carlson:If you're going to skip this step, you might as well skip all the rest of them, because this step is absolutely necessary to continue with the next step and the step after. Let's say, I'm trying to cut down on my drinking by myself, right, and I'm not going to tell anybody about it. I'm just going to whatever. And I come home from work one day and I have a beer, but I don't tell anybody. Things are fine, things don't get out of control. Next day I come home, I'm going to have another beer. I'm not going to tell anybody. Next day I'm going to come home, I'm probably going to have two beers or three beers, because I'm doing okay, right, I haven't told anybody, and now I've released my accountability to anybody. I'm not really facing my thing and I'm justifying everything. I'm doing on my own and very quickly, I'm going to undo what I've done.
Dr. Daniel Ageze:I mean I see this in clinic a lot, right, like people coming and saying you know they're hiding away, right, initially. Some people even say, oh, I came to seek professional help, right, and I mean that's a step forward, but they have not told anyone, they have not accepted, and you're like, okay, yeah, we're gonna start with this. But then, you know, people think they're and you're like, okay, yeah, we're going to start with this. But then you know people think they're unique, right, as they only have unique problem to them secluded, it's in a, in a cage.
Dr. Daniel Ageze:This is not working, right, if you expect the different result because you're hiding it, right, versus you have a community, you're actually admitting to to all that, and I tell people it's like willpower is just not enough. You need to have more than that. It's not a white knuckling we talked about last episode right where they're just holding on, and I find you need it's not you who's gonna solve all of it. So if you of it, so if you're not admitting it, if you're not saying, hey, my brother, and that's what Robert mentioned, the church you need to go out and seek out that help and say I have this sickness, this illness, I need support.
Jeremy Stock:You know I love it. It's all connected, right? Clearly, these steps are all connected because we're talking about you need God, you need the spiritual element to this. You need God, you need the spiritual element to this, you need confession. You can't do this on your own, is what I keep getting told by our experts here. How does that relate to Christianity, robert? It seems to me they're just like this.
Robert Fortuin:Yeah, I think what David mentioned. You know this sense of community, right, this sense of you know that we're not in this alone and I think this is a huge support system. You know that people can tap into, right, don't think you can do it by yourself. You can tap into the body of Christ and you will find that people are very similar with struggling with the same things. And so, yeah, I think this sense of community and knowing that there's people there and you can meet regularly, right, you can go to church weekly, daily, perhaps in, in in some instances, or, or, you know, in the middle of the week, on Wednesday evenings you can go to church, or matins in the morning or whatnot. You know, go, go and, and, and and commit yourself to to change and commit, commit yourself to join yourself to the body of Christ, and I think that will help.
Jeremy Stock:Amen. Certainly not going to hurt, is it?
Robert Fortuin:Right.
Jeremy Stock:Gentlemen, we are going to move to steps six and seven, and and I've been told by Dr Daniel and by David that these steps really are in tandem, so we're going to talk about them together. David, could you read these steps for us quickly and let us know? Then you know what's the takeaway, what's the most important thing just at first blush about steps six and seven? What should people not forget about these steps?
David Carlson:Gotcha. So step six we were entirely ready to have God remove these defects of character. And step seven humbly asked him to remove our shortcomings. We've identified what some of our flaws are. Now we need to eliminate those flaws so that we don't repeat them. Right, and here's where we start. Right, we ask for help, we ask our, we ask God or a power greater than ourselves, however, you want to serve it. But that's where we begin. As with all good things, we start with prayer. You know what I mean, and there is a prayer that's related to step seven, but we can get into that later. Um, but this is absolutely indispensable, absolutely indispensable I love that.
Jeremy Stock:If nothing changes, nothing changes it's very practical, right.
Dr. Daniel Ageze:This is the practical steps where you're, you're you're not just being automatic, right, because your old brain and your old ways of patterns, of things I used to do, they're going to remind you, right, and in Orthodox we talk about your own flesh, the demons, everything right, all the different thoughts coming and telling you to go back the old way. Right when you get triggers. But you have to make new plans, right, new ways of living to actually make a change in your life.
David Carlson:Because I had always thought, oh, I'm just going to kind of go in and kind of doctor up, put a bandaid on my life. That was existing and I'm going to and we're going to fix what was. And this is telling me right there that I need to recreate my life. Wow, and if I'm going to recreate my life, step six and seven is a good start. Wow, it's a good start.
Jeremy Stock:That's huge. That's huge. Robert sounds familiar. Yeah, being new creations in Christ, yeah.
Robert Fortuin:I was just thinking about the Tower of Babel, of all things, as a picture of how we create our own fantasy world. Right, it's like a delusional, this grandeur, and we create these structures in our lives and our personalities and we think we're so great and we do all of this and we almost reach the heavens, right Like the tower. But the first step to real life, to really being human, is to have that thing come crashing down. And what a better way is to have that thing come crashing down, and what a better way, right, the only way really would be to say I can't make it. I, you know prayer. This is why I see prayer coming back, the need for prayer and that humility to say my tower is worthless and my tower that I built is really like the depths of hell that I built is really like the depths of hell.
Jeremy Stock:The guys who created the 12 steps, who wrote the big book, they were and David, I want you to fill this in but they were just regular guys in essence, but they found this system that worked. But they wanted to get some credentials, if you will. So they went to a doctor and said, hey, can you endorse you know, endorse our program? Basically, david, tell the story quickly about what happened and then, doctor, I want your thoughts on that.
David Carlson:Well, you've got these two alcoholics. They kind of think they found a solution to alcoholism and it's actually working. And they're starting to put this stuff together, these thoughts together on paper, and they're basically the point of this book was that they wanted to send this book out to people who couldn't get to one of their meetings and hopefully it would give them some help. But they feared that they would have no credibility, like who's going to listen to a stockbroker tell you about how to cure alcoholism's? He's not a doctor, he has no, you know, expert advice when it comes to this stuff. And so they thought we need to get a doctor to endorse us. And so he went to the one doctor he had been to many times who had taken him into his psych, psych wards and uh, and had watched him recover. And he had then had gone back to that doctor and said, hey, let me talk to some more alcoholics in there, maybe I can help them.
David Carlson:And once he started helping them, they asked him hey, can you endorse this? And he said absolutely, because he had seen the results of it. And so that section right there it's called the Doctor's Opinion, one of my favorite sections in the whole book. It is so. I wish I could read the whole thing right now, because it is there's no dull moments in that whole thing. It is super, super informative.
Dr. Daniel Ageze:Recovery. The stock brokers right, they wanted to go see a doctor and get credibility, right. That just made me think about, you know, like they got the gold from the source, right, like from god, right, the spiritual healing, which does not need credibility in a sense, right, because it's coming from the source itself and and and when we talk about you know, even maybe from ethiopia, and like there are priests who are from the village. But when you have the source, when your knowledge is coming from the actual source and the creator, you don't need an MD to tell you right, I mean, in this world we do think that we need that and, yeah, we do search for it, but this is coming from the source of life.
David Carlson:And right out the gate at the beginning of the book, source of life. And right out the gate at the beginning of the book he points out the very key phrase in step six that says I was entirely ready to have God remove these defects of character. And it was so humbling because I had gone into this thinking I was going to be doing it, I thought I was going to be the solution to my problem. And that is so far from what these steps have taught me at this point right, like if I could fix my own problem I really wouldn't be here. You know what I mean. Like I need something else. And so it was like this small hiccup of pride and ego that got me to that point. But thankfully that book corrected me right out the gate.
Dr. Daniel Ageze:That's case two. When you're praying God, please remove from me every single defect. You may not see nothing, you may not be seeing, but he is removing that. And so, for those that are listening, it's not just saying things. Right, there's especially as you're letting God right. Our free will limits God, our faith limits God, and so you want to make sure you know this is not just. You know, we're not just saying words. Right, there is something more beyond that's happening and that is unique also in orthodoxy. Right, because you're seeing, it's not just symbol. We're not. Baptism is not just symbol. Eucharist is not just a symbol. There is the spiritual component of what actually is happening when you allow God, when you let him and when you say yes.
Jeremy Stock:Why. We all have defects of character and I'm certainly not going to remove them all in my life, and you know, by God's grace, I'll be okay. What, not going to remove them all in my life, and you know, by God's grace, I'll be OK. What's going on here, David? Why? Why do these defects of character have to be addressed?
David Carlson:Well, you know what? That's a very good Let me. I'm going to read the seventh step prayer, and it kind of addresses that in a sense, and then I'll elaborate. I'm going to read it from the book. It says, when we were ready, we say something like this my creator, I am now willing that you should have all of me, good and bad. I pray that you now remove from me every single defect of character which stands in the way of my usefulness to you and my fellows. Grant me strength as I go out from here To do your bidding. Amen, giant.
David Carlson:That kind of tells us what's going on here. We're not getting rid of our Character defects so that we can glow. We're getting rid of our character defects so that we can be useful, which is something we haven't been. We had been pretty self-seeking and self-centered up for most of our part in our addiction and just thinking of ourselves entirely. And hopefully, after doing our fourth step and our fifth step, we see that we see like, wow, I've been making all these decisions based on me, without anybody else, without considering anybody else, you know, family, friends, relatives, all that stuff. So this is going to get rid of those things so that I could be of more use to god and to my fellow. You know um giant giant.
David Carlson:And now some of these some of these defects are are blatant, you know. I mean some of them are like loud, like lying, cheating, stealing, like these kind of things you need to get rid of you. If that has been a habit, if that's something you were doing to get to where you're at right now, you need to get entirely. Get rid of those. You know what I mean. Some of the defects of character, though, are kind of um like can be uh inflated, uh like good characteristics, but inflated, you know what I mean like uh, hunger, inflated is greed, you know what I mean. Some and I kind of relate it to like, if you're like an overeater, you you can't just eliminate food, like us alcoholics, we just eliminate alcohol and now we're sober. If you're an overeater, you have to kind of learn how to balance that and to bring that, reel that back in, to bring it into a healthy aspect of your life.
Jeremy Stock:I get this sense. You guys and Dr Robert, I want your thoughts quickly you get this idea that it's not just about sobriety. That's why the Christian aspect is so important, because, sure, let's say, I've got, you know, five years of sobriety, but I never stopped the lying that I was doing for years. Right, the character defect of lying. Well great, now I'm a sober liar, right? What has that gotten me?
Dr. Daniel Ageze:It's not just oh, stop alcohol right Right. What has that gotten me Like? It's not just stop alcohol, Right Right. That's not the only thing, yeah.
David Carlson:Yeah, it's interesting because if you, if you look at these steps right, all 12 steps the only time alcohol is mentioned is in step one Interesting that's the only time you're ever going to hear alcohol mentioned. And then the rest of the steps are all about you as a person. One interesting that's the only time you're ever going to hear alcohol mentioned. And and and then the rest of the steps are all about you as a person. The book does a phenomenal way.
David Carlson:it describes it as the alcohol wasn't our problem, it was a symptom of our problem it was showing us that there was something missing, and and it was basically and that's why you'll hear a lot of alcoholics that are like, hey, I'm a grateful alcoholic Because that was able to get me to where I am now. You know what I mean. It was the vehicle that got me here, and without that I may not have gotten to this spot of spirituality, what in the world?
Dr. Daniel Ageze:How in the world, right. And then the person there is like no, I don't want to make this choice. I love you, but I still have to choose my drug right. You see that brain rewiring right and that is actually. There's that component of dopamine linking and your brain is focused on that.
Jeremy Stock:Can you tell us what are three steps that everyone could do today that is interested in preventing addiction?
Dr. Daniel Ageze:Yeah, so with that one I definitely start. Know your family history. That is very key. Genetics plays a big role in this. Right, ask your parents, there's that component and then learn also how to handle yourself in peer settings. This is also, you know, a lot of substance use starts early Right and picking your friends wisely and also having that home environment that allows for that discussion and then really seek out help, right For all the different reasons why you might use substances.
Jeremy Stock:Amen, Amen. Thank you for that, David. I'm going to pose you with this question as we're closing out here. What's the worst thing To say to someone struggling with addiction? What's the worst thing someone can say?
David Carlson:You got this. Don't ask anybody for help. You got this.
Jeremy Stock:The best thing. What's something, doctor, that today you want to leave Someone who's struggling with addiction today listening right now? What would you like them to know?
Dr. Daniel Ageze:Yeah. So I think I know a lot of people struggle with the concept of God and the moment they hear that, they run away. If you're one of them and you're hearing this, it's not the end of all. In a sense, you can start. Just start, right, Stop thinking, stop overthinking. Right, we stop ourselves. We're our own roadblock. Start, come and see. It's 30 days, whatever.
David Carlson:Find somebody who's got more time than you and ask them how they did it and if they and once they tell you how they did it, you go do those things, whatever it is that they did to do it.
David Carlson:If it worked for them, it'll work for you.
David Carlson:I think if you got four months or you got whatever, you got 30 days and you want and now you're starting to get that phenomenon of craving you want to go get loaded, go help somebody else out, go help somebody else out, go help somebody else out. This disease is very selfish and self-centered and if you go around like I remember I went through that plenty of times and my sponsor would pick me up and say, okay, we're going to go help this guy out, and I was like, but I've got the problem, like I'm the one that wants to get loaded, why am I going over there? And then you get over to this guy who's got no days and you're talking to this guy and you're giving this guy advice and you're helping this guy out and now all of a sudden you've gotten out of your little space and you're in their space and all of a sudden you're super grateful for where you are to have your 30 days If you're in your own bubble, that's all you see, that's all you think is happening, right?
Dr. Daniel Ageze:So ask somebody and, like David was saying, whatever you put in is whatever you put out. It's kind of like AI, right? If you put in garbage, garbage is going to come out. If you put it, garbage is going to come out Too, true, listen?
Jeremy Stock:thank you for listening this long. I want to thank our guests Robert, thank you for being here today. David, thank you for being here today. Dr Daniel, thank you so much. Information down in the description for how you can reach out. We've provided some resources down below as well to other agencies and whatnot. If there's nothing else, gentlemen, I think we can end it here, by God's grace. Thank you so much. This has been Cloud of Witnesses Radio and looking forward to seeing you in the next discussion. Bye-bye.
David Carlson:Bye In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Illumine our hearts, O Master, who loves mankind, with the pure light of Thy divine knowledge and open the eyes of our minds to understand Thy gospel teachings. Implant in us also the fear of Thy blessed commandments that, trampling down all carnal desires, we may enter upon a spiritual manner of living, both thinking and doing such things that are well-pleasing to thee, For thou art the illumination of our souls and bodies, O Christ, our God, and to thee do we ascribe glory, together with thy Father, who is from everlasting and thine, all-holy and good and life-giving Spirit, now and ever and unto ages of ages. Amen. Amen.