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Addicted and Christian | Overcoming Addiction with Expert and Survivor Insights | Dr. Daniel Ageze and David Carlson | TLTS013 CWP077
The conversation explores the topics of addiction, recovery, and the role of orthodoxy in addressing these issues. The guests discuss the rewiring of the brain in addiction, the genetic component of addiction, and the stigma surrounding substance use disorders. They also touch on the spiritual and emotional aspects of addiction and recovery. The conversation highlights the importance of awareness, early intervention, and support in addressing addiction. Addiction is not a new phenomenon, but the understanding and treatment of it have evolved over time.
The conversation explores the importance of spirituality in recovery and the holistic approach to addiction treatment. The 12 steps of recovery are briefly discussed, highlighting the process of identifying the problem, accepting the solution, addressing the roots and causes, and helping others. The role of the body in recovery is emphasized, with the understanding that the body and spirit are interconnected. The compatibility between science and the Christian faith is also highlighted, particularly in the Eastern Orthodox tradition. In this part of the conversation, the focus is on the second and third steps of the 12-step program. The second step emphasizes the importance of believing in a power greater than oneself that can solve all problems.
The discussion highlights the inclusivity of this step, allowing individuals to interpret the higher power in their own way. The third step involves making a decision to surrender one's will and life to the care of God as understood by the individual. The concept of surrendering and acknowledging one's weaknesses is compared to the Orthodox Christian faith. The importance of actively participating in the steps and the program of action is emphasized. In this final part of the conversation, the speakers discuss Step 4 and Step 5 of the recovery process. Step 4 involves making a searching and fearless moral inventory of oneself, which includes identifying resentments, fears, and harms caused to others. It is a challenging step that requires honesty and self-reflection. Step 5 involves admitting to God, oneself, and another human being the exact nature of one's wrongs. This step emphasizes accountability and the importance of sharing one's struggles with a trusted individual. The speakers highlight the parallels between these steps and the practice of confession in Orthodox Christianity. They emphasize the need for support and community in the recovery journey and encourage listeners to reach out for help.
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What role does spirituality play in overcoming addiction? This episode of Cloud Witnesses Radio brings this profound question to life through the heartfelt journeys of Dr. Daniel Ageza and David Carlson. Dr. Ageza, a renowned expert in addiction medicine and psychiatry, and David, a man who has maintained sobriety for a decade, offer their personal stories and professional insights. From Dr. Ageza's shift from agnosticism back to Orthodoxy, shaping his empathetic approach to treatment, to David's transformative experiences with Alcoholics Anonymous and the 12-Step Program, we uncover the powerful intersections of faith and recovery.
To reach Dr. Daniel Ageze at I AM Recovery
email: i.am.recovery.inc@gmail.com
San Diego County crisis line (1-888-724-7240), National Suicide Prevention Lifeline (1-800-273-8255), National Human Trafficking Hotline (1-888-373-7888), National Sexual Assault Hotline (1-800-656-4673), National Domestic Violence Hotline (1-800-799-7233), and Call 911 if emergency
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LuciaCandleCompany.Etsy.com
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Hi, welcome to Cloud Witnesses Radio, very excited about today's episode. We are doing a special episode. We're calling it Orthodoxy and Recovery. We have with us a special guest, dr Daniel Ageza. He's an Orthodox Christian. He's an expert related to addiction medicine and is a psychiatry physician with studied expertise in addiction science and recovery. We also have with us David Carlson. He's an Orthodox Christian. He's 10 years sober, has been a sponsor many times, extensive personal experience with the big book which we'll get into AA, alcoholics Anonymous and the 12-Step Program. Also joining us, robert Fortine. Robert is an Orthodox Christian professor. He is a professor of history, as well as going to be joining us, robert Fortine. Robert is an Orthodox Christian professor. He is a professor of history, as well as going to be joining us today. Really, on the moderation side, in terms of talking about the spiritual elements and the Christian elements of how this overlaps with recovery, I'm Jeremy and I'm an Orthodox Christian and I'm honored to be here today as your moderator and host. An Orthodox Christian and I'm honored to be here today as your moderator and host.
Speaker 1:So, gentlemen, before we jump in to give you guys a chance to kind of say something about yourselves, we are going to be talking today about some pretty serious topics, about addiction. What is addiction? What is recovery? There are some kind of shocking statistics that I'm sure nobody who has been within the internet or television recently would not know. But substance abuse is rampant and is really, in some ways you might say, out of control.
Speaker 1:I picked up some statistics here. These are national statistics Half of people 12 years and older have used drugs in their life, which I thought was shocking. Since 2000, from drug overdoses, the federal government sends about $35 billion a year on drug issue, drug control, and not to mention, of course, there's the issues of teenage drug use. There's marijuana addiction, the opioid crisis, fentanyl has been making a lot of headlines recently drug-related crimes, what it does to families, on and on and on. Today we're going to be discussing this very important topic as well as how does orthodoxy come into play? How does the practice of the Christian faith help and assist and work with recovery? So, without further ado, I'd like to bring on and have him introduce himself, dr Daniel Agueza.
Speaker 2:All right. Thank you, jeremy, and Robert as well. I am Dr Daniel Agueza. I'm originally from Ethiopia and I'm honored to be here and then with this topic that we have is an important topic. It relates it's not just about substance use, but you know, it relates to humanity in general as well.
Speaker 2:But just to kind of give you my background, I came into the addiction medicine field and psychiatry. You know, initially I started medical school to heal the body, right. My thought was the most, the hardest thing a human can go through is physical pain and death eventually. But in my path, growing up as an Orthodox, when I went to college I left and became agnostic because of science and different things. Eventually I was also angry with God at one moment because of all kinds of sufferings that was out there, and then, as I was coming back, I was learning about all God at one moment because of all kinds of sufferings that was out there, and then, as I was coming back, I was learning about all types of belief systems, right.
Speaker 2:And so during med school I encountered an addiction medicine doctor who eventually showed me about what it is, and then I could eventually relate myself with sin, substance use and being addicted to the world in general outside of accept God, right. So that kind of was the cue. And then I was asking God you know where do you want me to go? Right, I like medicine, but which field within medicine do you want me to go? And then eventually I saw addiction medicine, not just medicine, there's the whole layer of seeing the person, there's the family, there's the spiritual component. All of that kind of drew me in and then eventually I actually learned I was not just helping people, it was helping me, because to be in recovery means you're actually walking the faith right, you're not just talking, you're really doing what you need to do. And so that's how I got into it. And then now I practice in addiction medicine and psychiatry. But we also are starting our own spiritual-based, orthodoxy-based practice, which I can tell you more about later. But that's a quick intro from my side.
Speaker 1:Excellent. Thank you, doctor. It's a pleasure having you. Thank you, hey, David. Tell our audience a little bit about yourself.
Speaker 3:Hey, david, tell our audience a little bit about yourself. My name is David Carlson. I am at 10 Years of Sobriety. My sobriety date is February 24th 2014. And a relatively recent Orthodox Christian. I got resmated on January 1st of 2003. I love it. Yeah, thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be getting into this topic. Uh and uh, my life it saved my life 100 percent. Um, very excited and hopefully, um hope it's something we do here today and help somebody else amen amen to that, that's great.
Speaker 5:I'm just very excited to be able to host both of you guys, uh and dav. David, I'm so very proud of you. Ten years, that's just super. I mean, wow, that's just awesome. I'm just you know, keep it up, and you know what a great victory, what a triumph in your life. You know, and to go through that right is one thing to read about the statistics of. You know the addiction that people go through and the human toll and all this. But to have to go through that personally as you have David, that is just, and Daniel, you to face with reality, and it's not something that you can ignore, it's right there. So you have triumphed. You are triumphing right. It's a process, it's an ongoing thing. I'm sure you'll relate that to us here in more detail. This is part of your life, but this is a process you're going through. So very excited to have both of you. Can't wait to hear what you guys have to share with us and the audience.
Speaker 1:Amen, if I can piggyback on that just briefly, I am honored to call David, my cousin. David and I have grown up together literally from the time we were little babies. His mom is my mom's sister, and so we've been very, very close for many years, and I can tell you that I have learned so much from David and really seen an example of what discipline looks like. And I think we might talk about discipline a little bit in terms of, because it comes in an orthodoxy, it comes in with recovery, and so I'm just humbled by David's story and I'm just kind of overly excited that we're doing this today. If we can turn here. Doctor, can you tell us what is substance use disorder? What are we talking about here today?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you know substance use disorder is a big phrase, right, for any substance that you use, we use a criteria to define. You know, in the past, a lot of times you know, addiction is seen as just a behavioral thing. Right, it's like, oh, why don't you just quit? Just you know, do you know? It's just simplified because one of the things with addiction is what you see is outward expression, right, a person can't say, can't stop, they're just doing you know, oh, I just told them, and they're continuing to use or they're relapsed again.
Speaker 2:All these, everyone else, outside of what they see and the inside is different, right? So in the brain we have where your brain is getting rewired, where you're constantly pursuing that drug because of the physiology that we have, right? So, for example, dopamine is one of the main chemicals in our brain that signals us what is important, right? So if you anything that you need for survival, right, you'll get more dopamine. Hit for it. So if you have a great food or food, it's like your brain is going to register it as like that's a good thing, I need to have it. And then, if you know there's sex, everything that is good for you is eventually going to be registered as dopamine. And when you're taking substance, especially the main ones, right, they make you release a lot of dopamine.
Speaker 2:So your brain starts to register that as it's important, I need to have it Even more than you know. Food more than anything. Right, even despite consequences, people are, you know they're driving with using substance, right, You're like you're out of your mind. That's how you're seeing them from outside, but inside their brain is getting rewired, right. So from the medical component, we see it as a treatable chronic medical disease, like diabetes, right, especially, uh, like a lot of people know about diabetes. And if you have genetic like, if your parents have diabetes, your chance of having diabetes about 30 percent as a as the child. And addiction if you have history of addiction, your chance of having addiction is 50. It's even higher, right?
Speaker 2:but, the way we treat it is like oh, we sit in a very different light and so we have to give it um the same weight, in a sense. Let me see, for some reason, my video is uh, yeah, let me see daniel as you.
Speaker 1:Yes as you are working on your video. I'm going to ask dave a question which is, I think, closely tied to this, which I think is very interesting. Dave, you told me one time because you know we've had the opportunity to talk about addiction a number of times um, you know, in our various lives and whatnot, and you said to me one time something that was always, that always stuck with me. And you said, jeremy, you said someone who is addicted, it's like telling somebody don't be hungry, like if you haven't eaten for 12 hours. And you know that feeling, we all know that feeling where you're starving. You just need to go get you got to eat. You got to eat. You said it's kind of like the same thing. Can you talk about that a little bit?
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Speaker 3:And I heard it described as like telling a fish not to swallow water. Wow, you know what I mean and it you cross that line, it is what you do but.
Speaker 3:I mean like I, I can't say I was always an alcoholic. Once I crossed that line, the hall became my solution, my solution, for it was my fix, it was, it was how I learned to handle life. Interesting, so they're in good times or bad times, or celebrating, or funerals, whatever it was. It become my solution. Um, you know, and if I got a promotion at work, uh, you know how do you celebrate me with alcohol, right? So after a while, that's all you do. You know, I mean that it's everything else kind of sizzles away and that becomes the only thing, and now it's it's the only thing you you're searching for. You know what I I mean, right, nothing else satisfies that.
Speaker 5:It has to be related yeah, it has to be related to what Dr Daniel was saying about the dopamine release. Right, there's this kind of feedback of you know you have alcohol and then you feel good, and then you know the dopamine reinforces that and wow, so that's. It tells me how difficult that must be to break that right.
Speaker 1:That's what it always meant to me, Robert, when you describe it that way of something like tell a fish not to drink water. You know, tell somebody not to feel hungry, Right? That makes perfect sense, you know, and I think it does. It ties into what the doctor was saying about this rewiring in the brain which is not easily overcome my intention.
Speaker 3:First I was in rehab. My intention was never to be completely sober. My mind couldn't wrap itself around doing anything, or I guess I had to have something, and I was like trying to figure out the lesser of the evils. You know what I mean. So it was never my intention to be completely sober. I'll just put that in there and glory be to God that changed.
Speaker 3:I heard something at a meeting one time I had I heard a guy mention. He said think about it, gets in the way of fast, gets in the way of fast. And I had been walking around telling people at the rehab I was in that I was going to quit drinking and I was going to quit doing. You know I sent some other drugs, but I said I was going to quit drinking and I was going to quit doing. You know I sent some other drugs, but I said I was going to smell some weed. You know I was going to, you know, still keep doing marijuana.
Speaker 3:I said I'd be good, I'd be good. And I kept saying that. I was like I'm going to quit this, I'll quit that. But I had realized, man, I am 40 years old and I don't think I've ever, ever tried to be my best. I had always been absolutely okay with just mediocre, just getting by, just paying the bills, just covering the rent, just getting by just barely, but never trying to be my best. And then just it switched my perspective a little bit and I started looking at things and going, well, maybe, maybe I do need to set this down, maybe there is a difference. And it just opened my and that had it broke into the rest of it amen well that that speaks exactly to doctor.
Speaker 1:Now that you're back with us, um, you can probably pick up where you were, in the sense that you know that what's going on in the brain and how is that addressed.
Speaker 2:Maybe if you could move into that as well and definitely, as Dave was mentioning, there's a component of like we're so learned, oh, I should be able to do it just by myself. Right, there's that component of it and really it takes time to accept what you have, which we'll touch on the spirituality component as well, just outside of how do we struggle in sin and how do we accept who we are and how we're created and the fallen nature that we have. But at the same time we're coming back to the addiction component. Your brain is rewired and we have different brain areas that initially you may start for a specific reason I'm anxious, let me use alcohol or different reasons. People may get into that initially. But once your brain starts to rewire and your genetic component also kind of fires up, then you start to go in the same circle. Right, you're you, you get relief and eventually you actually start having a relief. Right, you're just using, just like david was saying, it's just like water for fish. Right, it's like it makes you feel quote, unquote maybe normal.
Speaker 2:Not, you know, sometimes people are not trying to get high, they're trying to get back to their level of like normal being normal, right. So there's a big stigma where people are like oh, you're just trying to get high. You're just, you know, versus, they're just trying to have a drink. You're a fish, you just need your water, in a sense, right. And then when you stop, you have withdrawals, right, severe reactions that you get. Your brain is saying, hey, you need to have that. And your brain also stops making normal chemicals. So now you have to support, you have to give it yourself.
Speaker 2:So people get in this you know catch-22 kind of thing where they're going back and forth. They're like I want to stop, I want to stop. Every patient I see they want to stop. I mean there's levels to accepting or you know they're still negotiating and saying, hey, I only want to, you know, drink this amount, or I want to use this much, but and there's that component of I'm going through withdrawal. So you need that support initially to be able to get through that window. And it's not just willpower, right.
Speaker 2:And then your brain also starts to actually recognize different things and starts to put we call them triggers or cues right. You walk by a liquor store, your mind starts firing. Right, you're like you need to go get there, right, anything. You holiday, right, good things, it's not just bad things, it's not people, because they're suffering. David was mentioning that earlier as well. So there's that component of like your brain starts to rewire all those things. So in recovery, which we'll talk about, there's a lot of work, right. So it's not easy. So we need to see it as a disease, too right A condition, and not just. You know it's hard for families. So we don't want to underestimate that. Living and seeing that is definitely tough, but there's that chemical component to it.
Speaker 1:I appreciate that doctor very much.
Speaker 5:I would like to hear.
Speaker 1:Sure Robert go ahead yeah.
Speaker 5:I would like to, daniel, and I'm sure I think some of the audience members that are listening to this and watching this video are wondering okay, well, I like to have a beer. You know I enjoy good food and whatnot. At what point does it become addiction? Right, because I'm sure that even in normal use of food and drink and whatnot sex or pleasurable things- it's normal right.
Speaker 5:I mean, it's okay to eat, it's okay to have a beer and a glass of wine and whatnot, but at what point does it become addiction? At what point this trigger mechanism or this dopamine takes over or one is out of control. Where is that point?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So that's a great question and there is some pointers we can talk about. There's you know, it's not as black and white as hard to say, right In terms of like, definitely need to know about your genetic history, right. Right, there's also how many times you do it right. And then there's also how young you are. Right, a lot of times we're seeing kids starting early on. Right, brain is still developing. Right, by age 25 is when you're fully maturing, even though you're you're, you know, grown up and you're tall and you have all the the features that make look like an adult.
Speaker 2:You need to make sure you abstain from substances that you know freely goes to your brain, right, it does not. There's no limit. And that's where it can trigger. Right, and you are at risk of, kind of, if you were to say, turning on that gene and also being addicted and then, before you know it, it's too late, right, and it also depends on the potency of the drug, right, if your meth is the you know, for example, is that it releases the highest amount of dopamine, so your risk of you know getting addicted is way higher in that sense, right, compared to you know, alcohol is normalized. Still, as you know, it's a major drug as well, but it depends. And so, early on, you know, alcohol is normalized. Still, as you know, it's a major drug as well, but it depends.
Speaker 2:And so, early on, you know, as parents, right, knowing, being with their children, having that free communication, why are we drinking, you know? And also there are many underlying reasons why people get into substances. Right, we want to address those ahead of time instead of just saying no. Right, because the kid may be anxious in a social situation, so let me drink, right, or they may have different reasons why they may do that. So if we can address that, we can help our children in a sense. And whether, you know, because it might be a little too late, in a sense, after they have an addiction, but even though we can still help them.
Speaker 5:So it seems like a general awareness of you know, for people who are not addicts, right, and have like this bad situation in their life with substance. You know, just an awareness why am I drinking, or am I drinking too much, or am I trying to cover something up? Fear or anxiety or problems? Am I eating because I have anxiety or whatnot? So just awareness of that. And also you mentioned that. What do you mean by that? Is that like wondering? Is there a history in my family lineage that has clear signs?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so in a sense it's not a one-to one, one gene where you're like okay, I know specifically, this gene does this. It's more like a compositions of multiple genes, right, and it's more like you, if you see it. You know, like in your family side we always ask you know mom side, dad side, anyone with substance use disorder, right? And you look for that. Obviously you have to be genetically like aligned, right.
Speaker 2:It's not step, but you know that kind of stuff but making sure your bloodline and that they have, you know, alcohol, and sometimes it's so people don't go to the doctor so they may not know too right. So being able to try to get a sense from your parents, that will be helpful.
Speaker 1:Thank you.
Speaker 1:I'd love to get some kind of feed on the street. Thank you, love to hear. Maybe, david, if you wouldn't mind telling us, do you, when you look back maybe this is like a two-part question when you look back at the early years, do you see that there was a time where, hey, at first it was just yeah, I would just go, and we'd have friends over and had some beers, no big deal. To where, all of a sudden, can you? You talk about that, dave? To where do you think it all of a sudden? Hey, wait a second, I'm not just having a beer with my buddies. This has become something different. Did that awareness come early? Did it come late? Did it come at all? Do you mind talking about that?
Speaker 3:I can just speak for myself and I can't really speak across the board for everybody but me when I let's do this. I I was used in a in a very religious household. I went to church every sunday with my parents growing up. Uh, peeing and doing drugs was like not on the radar at all and I um be going to public school. My sophomore year in high school didn didn't do anything for that first year and then I've had my first drink the summer before my junior year. It was amazing To me. I thought, why is this such a bad thing? Why does this have such a stigma around it? This is a really good thing. I had a lot of fun, we laughed a lot. Yeah, it made the situation more memorable to me and I just thought man well, if this is so good, what about the rest of it? You know what I mean. That's kind of where I went with it, but early on I don't think mean I wasn't a big drinker. I don't mean it what I'd like to drink, but it wasn't like it's seeking it out. You know what I mean it was. I was seeking on as an experimenter. I tried a little bit of everything and, um, I went, I did. I crossed the board. It was you know lsd it was. You know the board it was. You know LSD it was. You know F it was cocaine it was, you know.
Speaker 3:I figured I needed to have an opinion on everything. I couldn't have an opinion if I didn't know firsthand, right. And so after a while you kind of go okay, I like this, I don't like this, this is okay, this isn't whatever. For a very long time I didn't see any problems, I didn't see any issues, I didn't see anything. And after a while, I mean after a prolonged amount of use, I started to see some. I started to get some what they call consequences. You know what I mean. Now I've got to be at work early tomorrow morning, but I'm still going to go out tonight and I'm going to stay out late because it's priority. You know what I mean as a person. So now you're going off to work hungover or groggy or whatever, or calling in sick.
Speaker 3:So it starts. It starts kind of there. You, you know what I mean. You start getting a few constant at work. Your relationships start to suffer. You know your family and friends you know what I mean. You start to go well, there's a family get-together here and then friends are doing this over here. So I think I'm going to choose to do this and I'm going to be more in family. So you start to make certain decisions that start to separate. Even then, at that moment, it's not like you think there's a problem. You know what I mean, because you're with friends that are doing the same thing that you're doing and really masked it a little bit. You know what I mean. It isn't until until start seeing all these consequences behind and ignoring all these positive voices, that they start to file up on you and then get to a point in your life where you just pile up, they pile up, and it's hard not to notice, wherever you are, that one fall on you.
Speaker 2:Well, so in a sense, it does not discriminate and there's no, you know, bad people doing bad drugs, you know it's, it's all across the board, right? I see patients, all you know, doctors, all kinds of profession, all races, everyone is affected. I've had patients where they went to their first dental appointment and they had the laughing gas and that's you know where they're described. They're like I had that boom and opening like oh, that feels really good, you know that's, there's a commonality, right so. And then all of a sudden you're like whoa, this, this is, feels different, right so. And where people start to get caught on, and then it takes a while, it's subtle.
Speaker 5:Yeah, you hear a lot of accounts of people that have been injured back injury or whatnot, maybe even athletes. They're prescribed a powerful drug, usually an opioid, is my understanding, and that it brings such relief from the pain, from the agony, from the suffering, but that drug is the answer. Right, it's the drug doing that. And then they get into this spiraling down of this having to have this drug and you hear so many accounts of that. How horrible that is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, wow. This brings up a question, robert, that you had raised when we were having our conversations related to this episode and I wanted to. I'm going to ask it. If you don't mind, I'll ask it for you, because I don't think you have your notes in front of career, you know, helping people in this space. To me that sounds like a very modern phenomenon and yet when I hear David's story, I think that's been happening since the initiation of man. So can you talk about and both of you and all three of you really is addiction? Is this a new phenomenon? Is this something new that the world in the West now is seeing? Or in what ways has this been around forever? Can you speak to that?
Speaker 2:So there's one doctor that mentioned, like saying, hey, you know they're stopping to stigmatize it, right, it's more like one family member who's suffering, you know just, he's not doing anything with his life, blah, blah, blah. You know it's just all stigmatized. You know he's an addict, blah, blah, blah. Right, he's kind of shunned away. And there are people in our society, right, or they're homeless, there are different reasons, right, that kept away. But now medicine is kind of catching up to it and saying, you know, psychiatry has been doing it for a while, but now they're making it that has been for the last six, seven years, has been a specialty within, because they're saying, okay, this is actually a different realm, right, it's not just psychiatry, it has to be treated as its own. So, which is why you're seeing a lot more focus on it.
Speaker 2:And, and opiates also, they're start, they're killing a lot more people in a more sudden way. Right, you're seeing overdoses compared to. You know, alcohol, tobacco kill people all the time, more than opiates. But they kill in a slower term, right, your liver damage and eventually you'll die from different reasons, but you're not overdosing and dying. So now it's all of a sudden, there's this high attention to it. It's like cause, you're seeing people dying on the spot, right, and, but it's not a new phenomenon. I mean, we see that even in the Bible, right, people drinking and things like that, right, so technically definitely not a new thing. And it's also that the humanity right, there's that component of like we're addicted away from God, right, and that there's this big hole that we have and the substances change, right, it's like, oh, this is not enough, this is not enough. Now you're trying different things, but there's that emptiness that we're trying to fill, and so there's that component to it?
Speaker 5:Yeah, that's what my question was about. Was that? In what way can we see this? Not just as something that a modern problem, like you said? Like drugs have become more potent, more prevalent, more ubiquitous, it's all you know. They're everywhere easy, cheap and whatnot. But on the flip side of that is that this is a spiritual condition, this is a human condition and people haven't changed for thousands of years. So that to me speaks to the, the, the to to the humanity. Behind all this, what is? You know, what's going on with us? What's going on with people throughout the, throughout our human history? Right, um, it's a question to ask, saying why, why are we doing this? Is there a spiritual component? Perhaps our constitution, whether our soul is lacking something, or we're bored or we're fearful, maybe death, we're socially inept or you know? So that's kind of the question that I had. What's going on here? Can you guys speak to this? Maybe, david, in your personal experience, you can identify with that or shed some light on that.
Speaker 3:Oh, I mean, I don't know. I'm going to answer the original question really quick. I do know in the big book Jay Diney recent thing, there was a group before alcoholics anonymous, right, it's called the oxford group. Um w, the guy who one of the founders of aa, was approached by a guy from the oxford groups, a guy that he used to drink with quite a bit, and and so there was that little group that started before hey, hey and was didn't have a 12-step. I want to say there was. It was like oh, I'm a little mistaken on this one. I want to say there was a list of absolutes. It was very religious, though Phil kind of got into it and reworked it to make it more universal. The problem of drug and alcoholism is because it has to be a man, you know, I mean yeah right in there.
Speaker 3:But the recovering side of things. I mean up until wait, even at the turn of the night, that the 18 or 19 couldn't stop. I, they didn't understand it. I think that was it. They didn't quite understand it. They thought it was a willpower. You know what I mean. Why can't you just stop? If I stop, why can't you just stop and starting to understand it more, like we were talking about earlier is it needs?
Speaker 3:There's something chemical in our bodies that reacts different after you become an alcoholic. You're fodding. I've heard it described like if you're an alcoholic, one drink is never enough. An ocean full of alcohol wouldn't be enough. You know what I mean. You start it and you just can't stop. I get thirstier the more I drink. There's a certain chemical thing. They're filling on and they're making all kinds of uh breath in that bag. But as far as the recovery sites 12 step program in aa blew up because they just didn't have an answer boy, there were a lot of people that if you had alcoholism in the early 1900s they would put you in a psychiatric facility yeah lock you up.
Speaker 3:They would just medicate you and find you there was really no solution. So this was a very amazing thing to have happen. To add to that, sorry, but you say, so this was a very amazing thing to have happen. Very good To add to that.
Speaker 2:Sorry, but you say, how you mentioned blew up, right, a solution somehow came up and that was where it can introduce to the spiritual component. Right, because the founders found the spiritual component of this gap and there was no solution. Man could not find solution. The only solution you can find was in in the spiritual realm. And that is why aa and na and all those blew up. And even in medicine, medicine did not want to accept a, a, n, a, even to this day, like there had to be a lot of evidence say, hey, like, because people are like, ah, you know spirituality, what is that? You know, whatever, like, you just don't have. I'll give you medicine, all of that stuff, right, even after 100 years of seeing how it's helping people stay in recovery, right? So there's that big component of like that void that we've been just ignoring and the medicine that is not found in medicine.
Speaker 5:Yeah, from a Christian perspective, especially from an Eastern Orthodox perspective, there is this understanding of spirituality and spiritual discipline and sin as being disordered passions. So passions are not necessarily by themselves per se evil or bad For instance, a passion for food or drink or whatnot, sexual pleasure or stimulation in other ways but it's when it becomes disordered that then they take over and they are harmful. They are then take over and actually are detrimental to a person. So from the Christian perspective, it's very interesting to hear you guys talk about how these things take over and how they affect people to a point where they can't do without these substances or coping. They're kind of coping mechanisms, aren't they? It's like a way of coping with life.
Speaker 1:I'm reminded you guys Go ahead.
Speaker 3:Dave. Okay, you kind of jumped in to a little thing of what being about steps 6 and 7 of the 12 skills, and it's our character defects. It's phenomenal because that's exactly it it's. It's everything our character defects like fear. Fear is a good thing yeah, I see a hot stove, want to put my hand up. Fear is a good thing, but too much fear, detrimental. Yes, yes, yes, you know what I mean.
Speaker 5:Hunger is a very good thing but too, go ahead, robert.
Speaker 5:I was going to say, and there is Christian spirituality. There is centuries, almost two millennia, of history on how to deal with the disordered passions. Right, how have the church fathers, how has the church mothers, how have they looked at this, at the Christian discipline? How can we use our faith and deal with this disordered? It's kind of like a magnet almost. It's almost like we're in this state that wants to become disordered. Right, we're pulled to that. I think everybody is pulled to that in one way or another, Like you said, whether it's fear or lust, or money or prestige or social status.
Speaker 5:All the beauty, all of these things, they're great, right, Beauty, we believe God is beauty, God is good, God is love. But these things can be taken out of proportion. And then beauty becomes one's focus and then it takes over everything else and, for instance, well, I'm beautiful. For instance, it can become like pride, right, Isn't that what Satan? Right? Is the story about Satan's fall because he saw himself as beautiful?
Speaker 5:How a passion, a good thing or a gift of the beauty from God can be taken and then taken out of proportion, taken out of context, taken outside the gift that it? Is that the God-given context? Right, we're given something beautiful and then we distort it and we take it, and we take, take it and we run away with it. So what I wanted to say is that I think it shows you that there's this long history, and a beautiful thing about the Christian faith is that this is not just something that we discover in, you know, in the 21st century or the 20th century, and go like, oh, hey guys, there is this problem and, hey, there's a solution. As Christians, we can tap into, you know, decades, centuries of history and the enriched, yeah, and so it's very exciting.
Speaker 5:And then to, and then to complement that to, to, to marry that, if you will, with this, the modern scientific breakthroughs and insight. I think that's so powerful. We need that, we need the things that Dr Daniel is doing. We absolutely need that. It's, it's it, it's fascinating and it's absolutely necessary.
Speaker 1:So very excited about this this hole inside of us all. And he said you know, god has made us for himself and our hearts are restless until they find their rest in him. And and you know it's it's been kind of put into modern parlance we have a God shaped hole within us right and we're trying to fill that hole with all kinds of things and I want to talk.
Speaker 1:I want to bring this up because it hasn't been mentioned yet, but I think, and I want to hear your thoughts on this, david and Dr Daniel, because it is a spiritual problem. I would speaking for myself, I would say, at the core of it, yes, there's these chemical elements as well that I can't speak to, but there certainly is a spiritual axis of these problems, and that is not just related to substances, but that is related to, as you were touching on, robert, the passions, including in the modern day, sexual addiction, pornography, addiction, things of this nature that are, would assume, also bringing those dopamine hits that are contributing to this addiction, to this abuse. Can we talk a little bit about that, in terms of maybe just kind of adding some color to this conversation, that it's not just about alcohol, right, it's not just about popping some pills. This is turning on your cell phone at night and scrolling and starting to look at some things you shouldn't see. Can we talk a little bit about that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, and that actually is, you know it, kind of ties to what we were saying earlier. Like with the opiate, we're now seeing people falling apart everywhere, so we're like this matters falling apart everywhere, so we're like this matters. But a lot of people who don't have quote-unquote substance use disorder or addiction are in those realms, right. I mean, there's porn hidden, right, there's sexual addiction which are hidden. No one sees it, so no one is blaming you telling you hey, you know all that stuff. There's gaming, there's Facebook, there's scrolling, wasting away your life, in a sense, right, and it looks like, oh, you're doing fine, there's gaming, there's Facebook, there's scrolling. You're wasting your way your life, in a sense, right, and it looks like, oh, you're doing fine, there's only, you know, joe here, you know he's overdosing, right.
Speaker 2:No, that's not the reality, right. With chemically, we actually have seen with mri studies where when people have what we call spiritual awakening, that's where you actually have higher dopamine release than drugs, right? So so where there's you know more of a, where you're, that hole is being filled in a sense.
Speaker 2:Right, that's kind of like a medical perspective of like seeing how you how you actually can have that satiety in a sense right, and that that you're filled now, right? That's what you need and that's what you've been yearning for. It just happened to be either you've silenced it or you've not been around it and you're continuously trying to look for it, and so definitely I'll pause there.
Speaker 1:David, can you talk? Because I think what we're doing is we are transitioning here. We've talked a lot about what is substance abuse, what is going on in the brain on some level. David, you've told us a little bit about your experiences. We're transitioning now to begin to talk about recovery. What is recovery? What does recovery look like? And maybe, to start that conversation off, David, can you talk about when you came recovery, real recovery? Can you talk to us a little bit about that and what that looked like?
Speaker 3:Absolutely so. Like I had mentioned earlier, I didn't want to get sober. That never my goal. It was never attractive to me. It was the thought of me not having you know I've heard it described in the rooms of alcoholics anonymous is that like alcohol wasn't my problem, it was my solution. And um, and I didn't quite wrap my head initially around it, but the more I thought about it I was like that's 100% where I'm at now. It has become my solution for so many things. In order for me to get healthy, I need to get rid of my solution. So you need to replace that solution with an alternate solution.
Speaker 3:But yeah, initially I wasn't there. I found myself. I basically backed myself into a corner in my life and I had nowhere else to go. And I found myself at 40 years old, homeless and homeless and without a car, without a job, without a relationship of any kind and in a rehab. And still, even then, with all the consequences, the three DUIs and multiple stories I mean I could tell you war stories forever taking, you know, four hours inside a war. Even with all of that background, I'm in a rehab, talking about well, I really don't want to give up everything. You know what I mean. I don't really want to, I can't. It's without a solution, it's unfathomable.
Speaker 5:So when did that change? When you went from like I really don't need help, I can deal with it, to like my gosh, I got to change what happened.
Speaker 3:What is it? My idea, I'll be honest.
Speaker 3:It wasn't my idea. A very dear friend of mine called me up and said hey, do you want help? And I said, yeah. What I thought meant was that I'm going to give you a place to stay where you can get on your feet. You know what I mean. Fill out your applications, you can crash on my couch, that kind of thing, right. And she picked me up and said I'm taking you to rehab. Oh, I was like what? And she said if you don't want to go, then get out of the car. I was like wow, what? And she if you don't want to go, then get out of the car. I was like wow, okay.
Speaker 3:And I at that point I didn't bat myself. I knew I didn't really have any other options, so went into a five day detox and then transferred into a recovery center and it was, and so that that started it. That's where I was, and so I had a place to stay. I was eating and you know, doing that kind of of stuff, getting my sleep schedule back on a normal situation and somewhere around 20, some odd days in there 20 to 30 days of a clear head somewhat is when I had that epiphany about at that meeting where the guy said good gets in the way of us and then I started going okay, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3:so let's, let's give this a shot. I don't know what it looks like and and even then, I don't know, I just did. Aa was not attractive to me, it wasn't. You know. I just had all these people coming in saying, oh, we had a time, oh, keep coming back, and all these little catchphrases that used to just After a minute, you're in there long enough and it actually then becomes applicable to your life. And it actually then becomes applicable to your life, like to me, the thought of never, ever, ever drinking again, ever, just insane. It's like, dude, what about New Year's? What about my birthday? What about? You know what I mean? Like all these situations that I could foresee, and they were like look, you don't have to worry about that right now. All you got to worry about is today.
Speaker 5:What's so fascinating to me, David.
Speaker 3:And so I'm sorry.
Speaker 5:No, I was going to say. What's so fascinating to me is when you said well, it really wasn't my idea, like, like it wasn't your willpower going like now I'm going to change it sounded like you know, it's like I don't't know. Something from the outside happened to you I truly believe that's what it was.
Speaker 3:I truly believe it because at that point in my life I had kind of walked away from god and look at it. I see some white atheist and I had thought that religion was a man-made situation to create, repeat out and keep people in something quite under control. You know what I mean. But keep the masses in check, right?
Speaker 3:yeah absolutely, I just said kind of walked away from it and just by now I think it's a bunch of malarkey, I'm just whatever. So now I'm getting into, I'm kind of jumping into it and going to these meetings because that's what we're supposed to do and, um, the first time in my life I'm like walking into these rooms that are full of hope. I hadn't been hanging out with a lot of hope in my life at all. You know what I mean. I had been hanging out with some friends and you know some dark places and there was no hope there. And now I'm hanging out with hope and so it's very attractive to me. I'm hanging out with hope and so it's very attractive to me. I'm not really speaking all the lingo that they're saying, but I'm really liking how it feels. You know what I mean. I'm on this optimism and this, this, and taught me these guys that are actually doing this, staying sober, which was amazing to me. Um, so, yeah, so I and even then, so I'm kind of coming in and I'm kind of like looking at it like a buffet. You know what I mean? Like I'm going to do this and I'm going to do this, but I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. You know what I mean. I'm still real skeptical.
Speaker 3:And it wasn't until about I had gotten out of rehab, I was living in a sober living and made some sober friends, and I had this one sober friend of mine keep asking me so hey, do you have a sponsor of a sponsor? And I was like no, not yet. And he's like what are you waiting for? Get a sponsor, get a sponsor. And I was like I don't want to be calling somebody every day. I don't like that job. You know what I mean? They're off, they're off. And it wasn't until about four or five months in that I finally was like okay, respond to it. And then, when that sponsor just started to, you know, do the steps. And that's where the recovery starts to come in. There's a viewer out about the difference of what is recovery and there are guys that just in the rooms of what is recovery and there are guys that just In the rooms of Alcoholics Anonymous.
Speaker 3:We call it white knuckling it, because they're just sitting there going. I'm not going to do it, but they're not happy. They haven't changed much in their life except for that. And now they become resentful and they're really you know what I mean and they're not, I think joyous and free, which is a term out of the book that's fascinating Because I'm just going to jump in, because I want to hear about that juncture.
Speaker 1:You got to, like you said you had pushed God out of your life Part. We're going to get to, and not yet because I want to hear from Dr Daniel, but where you're going to talk about when you had to confront, because the book brought in a higher power and you had to begin thinking about God again. So I want to kind of prime the pump on that one, pump on that one. Turning to Dr Daniel, hearing David's story, the reluctance, the buffet style, can you talk to us from your perspective.
Speaker 2:What's going on there? What's that look like? How would you approach that? Yeah, so recovery for what you asked, right In terms, it's not a one-time thing, it's a process, it's a lifelong process.
Speaker 2:We always say, in recovery there's no cure to addiction. It's not like you stopped drinking, alcohol using and now you're good. Now you can think, you're always constantly actively staying in recovery. And there's the multiple components, how David talked about initially when he went into rehab right, there was a five-day detox. Right, that's the physical component. Right, and we'll talk about it. When we talk about orthodoxy, too, right, god cares about matter, our physical body, our fallen nature. That needs to be. It's not only spiritual. There's a spiritual component which comes after.
Speaker 2:But initially you have to get that chemicals under control so that you have that 20 days or whichever days that you're mentioning, right, and for some people it's longer, that they need that mental state to. And the dopamine, all the, the imbalance that you have in your brain. That is constantly right and the rewiring takes a while. The more you stay away from the substance. Eventually you'll be like, okay, now I can start to make better decisions. Right, it's not as hard to say no, right, and also you need all the and recovery component. You know there's the medical component, there's the 12-step recovery, which we'll talk about. There's the spiritual spiritual component of it and the. You know we have criteria. We say six dimension. We look at the chemical, the medical side, your psychiatry, right. Anxiety, depression, all the other different reasons why you might be using alcohol or substance as solution right. And then your readiness to change right.
Speaker 2:So it's like people go from oh, I need help, but first it's like I don't need help, I can do it. No, maybe I need help. And then they're like, oh, I need help, but first it's like I don't need help, I can do it. No, maybe I need help. And then they're like, oh, I really need help, but I need help in my terms. And then eventually, right. And eventually is when they say, okay, I give in, I'll do whatever you say to do, right. So there's process to it and that takes years for some people more.
Speaker 2:And even what David talked about, those that are just white knuckling it right, it's a matter of time before they go back to it because they have not addressed all the other reasons. Because that's the beauty in some sense, being seeing it from my side. You see all spectrums of people, right From all through their recovery young, you know different ages throughout their year and you know they may be in recovery for one, two years and then five years down. Later they're back again. Why, why did you not? What did you not address? And I always say you know, I can help you physically right, you're in recovery physically, but spiritually you're not there. Right, you don't have spiritual recovery. And it kind of ties back to my passion, is like I don't want to just heal your body, I want to also make sure I prevent spiritual death. Right, that's the ultimate thing that we're looking at, as well, as we're talking about orthodoxy and the 12 steps.
Speaker 5:But, yeah, yes, Well, I was so excited when you were saying that the Christian discipline, the Christian faith, the spiritual aspect, includes the body. It's not like when we're talking about Christianity, okay, this is about your soul and going to heaven, and forget about this empty shell of our body. No, no, no. Christ came in the flesh, right, god came in the flesh.
Speaker 5:Well, that tells us something that the body, our human body, are super important for God to come in the flesh, to be born into this world. So that tells us right there there is this physical dimension of all of this. So when we're talking about Christian discipline and Christian faith, we're including the human body in that. So that's why I think the scientific and the as a physician you're speaking, dr Daniel that that is completely compatible with the Christian spiritual aspect. There's not some kind of dichotomy oh, here you have the spiritual and then here's a break, and then here you have the body and science and the physical.
Speaker 5:No they're hand in hand, it goes hand in hand and the solution. The problem is hand in hand, but the solution also is in hand in hand.
Speaker 2:right, the problem is the body and the and the spirit, but the solution is also the body and the spirit and to add to that, robert, that's more specific to orthodoxy, that depth of acknowledgement of the body comes in orthodoxy not and you know, christianity has that but orthodoxy gives that even a special understanding, like it's kind of night and day, because you're focusing on just go to church, go to church. No, it's not just going to church. Church that acknowledges the body too, which is your doctrine, has to support that and your theology.
Speaker 5:That's right. I mean, why do Eastern Orthodox Christians make such a big deal about icons, pictures, nice Christian art? No, forget it. We paint and we venerate God through pictures, right, why? Because the body is important, how they look, you know. The icons depict saints in a very particularly unique way. Christ always looked in a certain way. There are some differences, but you can recognize that person. Or St Paul or St John, you know, because their body, their bodies matter. So, yes, as Eastern Orthodox Christians in particular, the human bodily aspect, the physical aspect, is partial. I mean, it's completely, you know, important, and you cannot diminish that or something, marginalize the body. And here you have the spirit and oh, here you also have the body. No, no, they go hand in hand, absolutely. I'm glad you pointed that out.
Speaker 1:That's a beauty of orthodoxy, robert, so well put, and I can speak as a former Protestant myself. Was that dichotomy in Protestantism? It's all too alive and well, Even the way we would speak it was. I got to get my heart right with God. I have to spiritually right. I want to ask Jesus into my heart and by heart. It's your spirit right? We worship in spirit and in truth. To a Protestant, that means something very different. That's all about. It's all up here. It's all I feel, my spirit being open to God in my head. You know, do I? Am I believing the right things? Yes, only within orthodoxy. Because by the wisdom of the fathers of the church and the saints of the church who have lived the faith for for all these centuries, as Robert was talking about, wisdom of the church has come in to tell us hey, these things we're talking about today, it matter. Why do they matter? Because they get in the way of your relationship with God.
Speaker 5:Yes.
Speaker 1:These these passions, and whatever it is, whether it's substances or the, the or the, you know, pornography, right, these things, that is what's, you know. Wall between the whole person. Yes, theosis. Right, yeah, I just wanted to jump in on that. I think that's a beautiful point and thank you for bringing that up, dr Daniel.
Speaker 5:Yes, yeah, a beautiful point, and thank you for bringing that up, dr daniel. Yes, um, yeah, the fall included the body, but so is salvation will include the body as well. As well, I believe, as christians said, christ rose from the dead bodily right, it was not just spiritually didn't come back as a ghost or something like that, as a you know. No, he was in the flesh, uh, risen. So I think that's, that's really beautiful and I think science supports that right. That you don't look, I'm sure, doctor, you don't look as a person. That's just like you know, just the flesh, just the body.
Speaker 2:You look at it, go ahead. Yeah go ahead. I do caution that not everyone in medicine will know that right.
Speaker 3:That's why it's important.
Speaker 2:You have to have that lens of orthodoxy and the truth right. The truth is what gives you the most understanding of how to even treat it right. Those that are treating just medically only right, they're going to see that their patients are going to struggle right Versus. If you have an understanding that it comes from the source, from God and the actual truth, you're going to be able to help your patient in that way and also help yourself as you're going through that process.
Speaker 5:Yeah, so it's a holistic anthropology. Now, I think, instead of just seeing it as just kind of this one-sided thing, you know so it's I think the Christian faith offers that anthropology that is holistic and then also provide a solution that is holistic, that includes the body but also the spirit.
Speaker 2:And it also kind of ties back to what I was saying. I said there's no cure right and from an orthodoxy perspective, that your body is going to be fully restored when Christ comes. You're following nature, so in a sense we have to stay vigilant in that.
Speaker 5:Yes.
Speaker 1:Amen. Gentlemen, we're going to begin to talk about the 12 steps of recovery because, daniel, I think that's exactly what you were saying. This is a process, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but what I'm hearing here in these 12 steps is a treatment. You're treating a condition that doesn't go away. You're not curing it, but rather you're addressing how to deal with it on a day-to-day basis, something of that nature. So we and when I say we, I mean David and Dr Daniel primarily can we talk about what are the 12 steps? Without getting into detail? Maybe let's just talk about them briefly as an introduction to the 12 steps. Where did they come from? How are they employed? Can we?
Speaker 3:have that conversation. No-transcript, not so similar things, but there was a foundation that they took and they tried to make it more universal. So then the Tossed Fs were too about, I must say, like the mid-1930s, you know, and we're right around there, and prior to the writing of the baseball team and LW, dr Bob, the first two alcoholics started working through these stats and created this situation via these stats, for which write a certain amount of recovery, and both the and the, I started to do an overview of all of the steps. It's such a huge thing but basically you're identifying a problem, identifying a solution, accepting the solution for the problem.
Speaker 3:Now you're going to jump into finding the roots and causes why the problem existed. You're going to address those. You're going to tell those to somebody, admit those dark things about yourself that you don't want to, and let confession. You're going to address the problems that you don't want to and, like confession, you're going to address the problems that you see in your life, you've identified from doing this moral inventory. You're going to go out and try to correct those problems. You're going to continue to work on these problems. You're going to stay fair in meditation and now, once you've gotten it, you've kind of gotten to the roots and causes, gotten all these things. You've kind of cleaned your asylum streets. I might just be. Now it's time to go follow some of your thoughts, kind of like a general. That's great, dave. That's a lot there. There's a lot there, for sure.
Speaker 1:And we are just for the audience to know. We want, we're going to get into it, uh, more, but I'm. But that was an excellent kind of summary of the 12 steps. Uh, dr daniel, did you want to? Again, we're not getting into the detail on him yet, but did you want to? Did you want to add anything to that?
Speaker 2:yeah, that's the, the main one, initially as a background. You know the there it talks about a higher being and initially it was God and eventually become a higher being. So there's a component of that and, as the name says, there are 12 steps that you do step by step to kind of guide you. And the main part, there's the spiritual component, how you define it now these days, but we'll obviously go over that in detail.
Speaker 1:I'm glad you brought that up, Doctor. What step is it where the higher power is discussed? What step is that?
Speaker 2:So two on three, correct, David? So the first one is you're accepting, but two on three is where it delves into that.
Speaker 3:You don't get very far without mentioning your higher power. That's a huge solution. It mentions in the book two different times and in a few different ways, but basically it says the point of this book is to introduce you to a power greater than yourself that can solve all your problems, not some all. Wow, don't get me wrong. It can solve all your problems, that's all. Wow, don't get me wrong. It's kept it so neutral because they don't want to, you know make it sick to anyone there are people.
Speaker 3:There are atheists in Alcoholics Anonymous and some people will use God as a synonym for a group of drunks. Use the word group, and so you know I don't go out of the way. There's a phenomenal chapter in the book that talks about called we Agnostics, and it addresses faith, and it does it so masterfully. Wow, it is super fun.
Speaker 1:I'm excited to get there, dave. That's huge, so. So why don't we do this? We're going to talk about the first five steps. Let's let's get into that. I'd like to, if you maybe, start us off, if your experience when you, when you got to step one, was that like Step one is you'll hear a lot of alcoholics say that step was already done by the time you got into AA.
Speaker 3:Step one is I'll just read it 100% on it. It says admitted, we were powerless over alcohol and that our lives have become unmanageable. If you're in a room of alcoholics anonymous, you're probably already in septic that part. You're not just in there because it's a cool place to hang out. You know what I mean. You're probably there to solve problems. Even the white would hope you would hope I would think so, for sure, I mean they're there because they have some issue, right.
Speaker 3:Some problem. Yeah, white knucklers really aren't going to go through these steps. These steps are going to bring about recovery. You know, white knucklers, there are plenty of holics who will go to AA meetings and do none of these steps. None of these steps. They don't want to do any of the work and kind of get into that a little bit later.
Speaker 3:You know what I mean, like I said, there's open these rooms and there's all kind of optimism, and so they go there and they think just by showing up they can maybe uh steps through osmosis or something and they're they recovered, but they haven't done any work and the solution is doesn't work at least from my perspective. I mean this I I know alcoholics anonymous doesn't have, uh, you know, a monopoly on sobriety. I know there's many ways to um, but it's the way I know, so I can always speak for myself.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, that's great I guess to add to that, I've had patients where they have gone through the 12 steps and but didn't really do it the way they should be doing it. Right that have you know that didn't get. It's kind of. There's also a component of your part where what you put into it is what you get it's like, but majority, as david, is saying yeah, if you're, if you're doing the steps you have really thought about first step for sure, and you've seen it in your life, demonstrated You've had so many consequences, you become, whether you like it or not, powerless over your substance.
Speaker 3:This step is so giant, it is so mandatory, because if you can't, if you're powerless, and then your life has become unmanageable. There's really, if you can't do, step one and, like Dr Daniel mentioned, steps are in order. You're supposed to do them in order. You're not supposed to skip around and hop around and buffet on like I've been doing for a little while. But this is a critical component. You have to say, hey, I've got a problem, because if I don't have a problem, there's really no point in going any further. And I've had a lot of friends that will give up doing drugs or drinking or whatever it may be, 10 or 12 days into it and they'll go oh hey, I got this and that doesn't you stopped. They say there's really no point in going any further with anything else in those gaps.
Speaker 3:So it's a critical step, critical step. It sounds super simple, but super, I mean. I think that is what has enabled me to get as much time as I have underneath myself, because I know that I have this thing called alcoholism and I know that like it would take today is one bad idea and I might go out and have a drink and it all over. It's all over and and that would be me doing my first step, saying nope, I don't think I have a problem, I think I can take care of this. I can, you know, I can manage. I think I'm gonna have a few glasses of wine in the old day.
Speaker 1:Oh, dave, you said something that to me, because you know we're talking about orthodoxy and recovery, and I could not help but see the analogy to the Christian faith. You talked about people who would come to the meetings, the AA meetings, and never do the 12 steps. Me I can just speaking for myself. That's how I approached Christianity for many years. It was kind of like I'm at church.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I, I, I love what you said, like as if I was going to absorb it by osmosis. I would have never admitted to that the years of my Protestant life. It was just kind of that. I was, yeah, orthodoxy. To bring it to orthodoxy. One of the things I love about orthodoxy is orthodoxy is about the work, it's about the process, it's about the steps. Yes, yes and, and I need the steps. That's what I've come to realize by God's grace, yes, yes.
Speaker 1:And there you have the church, you have the priests, you have the deacons. You have this little for the soul, right, the guidance, the spiritual guidance. You have the lives of the saints who have lived the lives for us, examples for us turned to to. I'll leave it at that. Provide that insight.
Speaker 3:I'd love to hear your thoughts I'd love to add on to that, jeremy, just because they they call this the program of action, 12 steps is a program of action. You cannot just know, sit in a room and observe the absorb it. You what I mean, and that's what that. And I now that, as I became Orthodox, I kept telling Jeremy oh my gosh, I can see so many relations to this. And that's what I do. I see Orthodoxy as a program of action.
Speaker 3:You have to be involved, you have to go to liturgies, you have to make confession, you have to take part you have to go to liturgies, you have to make confession, you have to take part in the Euphorus, you have to worship and you have to pray, and you know what I mean. It is part of this. It is amazing.
Speaker 5:And it's not because somebody is telling you or because God is angry, but because that is the way of life, Right. And if I may riff off the steps that you guys mentioned, you know liturgy. What is liturgy? It means liturgia. Liturgy comes from the word liturgia, which means the work. It's work of the people. And if you look at the liturgical services, there are steps to it. They're very methodical. And why are there steps? Because you know that you have to go through the steps of confession and singing and participating, and the priest also has very, very methodical steps to this. And it's not to box this whole thing in and make it this. You know this dry, dead service, but it's because this structure and these methods are life-giving. They help you reset your life, if you will. So that really, I think it speaks to these 12 steps at AA. It's amazing, it's awesome.
Speaker 2:Quickly, if I may add, with the first step there's that parallelism. You don't do the steps without a sponsor, you don't just do it by yourself. There's someone who's done it, who's there shepherding you, who who can speak to it, and you're admitting to someone. You're powerless, and that parallels with orthodoxy. You're going to your priest and saying, or you know, you've dealt with your sin so many times. You're like I can't do it, I am powerless. Need you know I it's not just my willpower, I need to come there, I need to kick communion, I need the forgiveness. All those things play a big component and that's where you're seeing what the church has had for 2,000 years and you know, 100 years ago is when you're coming up with the solution. You know we've kind of forgotten God, in a sense right For many years, but the solution is there.
Speaker 1:That's awesome, you guys. I'll turn now to the second step. We primed this a little bit earlier. David, I would love for you to kick off the discussion of the second step. First read it for us, but then can you tell us about your experience? This was an issue for you at first, because you've heard me, you've told me your story before. Can you share that with us? And? And then we can jump into the discussion of the second step absolutely, uh.
Speaker 3:Second step is we need to believe that our greater than ourselves restore us to sanity. Atheist and I'm in a room of alcoholics and I gotta come to believe that a power greater than myself restore me to sanity. And for the last so many years that I know this doesn't exist, it's not out. There existed this one heavily and I did. I mean, there's okay, so let's get into this. There's no physical proof that you've done the first step. Say that you did it right. No physical proof that you've done the second step either. You can kind of just go.
Speaker 3:I know what I did To be honest with you Until you make it right, and as you go further into the book, it keeps bringing that back. It keeps going. The purpose of this book is to introduce you to our greater than yourself. Now, for me, what happens is I start. It keeps going. The purpose of this book is to introduce you to our greater than yourself. Now, for me, what happens is I start. It's months, Months. You know what I mean. You're starting to feel good now. You're sleeping normal. You've got a job. You know what I mean. Yeah, You've cleaned up your head's, clearing out. You know I don't know.
Speaker 3:For me, it was like I was talking to my family members again. I was back in their lives and certain friendships that developed that were just blossoming and it was like, man, this feels so good. There's a certain optimism that came with that and I don't know if it was part of that. Somewhere at some point is there. When you back for the last decade of my drinking and using, I saw that God had been with me the entire time, protecting me, keeping me safe, keeping me to this point in my life. It was that I was like wow, at a point I couldn life. It was that it was. I was like wow At a point. I couldn't once you you see that you can't unsee it, Just can't unsee it. And because I I've been in some very dark places, Been in some very, very dark places, so it was to look back and see that he had been there. The whole time was just like absolutely amazing and something people forever.
Speaker 5:They did absolutely insane. That's so awesome. So you were an unbeliever, you were an atheist. When you were accepting step number two, when you first were introduced to it, right, you were kind of like saying, oh yeah, whatever, or you were maybe reinterpreting it or explaining it away, perhaps, or something.
Speaker 3:Power in the universe. Yeah, right, right, right.
Speaker 2:Not using the.
Speaker 3:G-O-D. You know what I mean, that's a good little term for it. There are plenty of options if you don't want to use God.
Speaker 5:Right and I think that's legit. I mean, for some people that's fine. But at what point you, david, did you go like, no, I can't, you know? It's starting to dawn on you that God Almighty right, that now it's starting to become clear to you. When did that happen? How did that happen? How did you go from atheist unbelief to God? Is there God?
Speaker 3:is there for me. I had mentioned I grew up in a Christian household and so I had that background. I had that kind of foundation. You know what I mean, and so it was my default from where I went to there. You know what I mean, and I was very Protestant. I grew up bit of non-denominational Protestant church. I just kind of fell back to that, so to speak, but it was I don't know. I don't think it was any one thing that triggered. It was just that realization there's no way I could have done and gotten here all on my own and there's no you know what I mean and that I had had something there protecting me the whole way and guiding me, no matter how dark and powerful that is great to add to that.
Speaker 2:For some people, for what I've seen, that sometimes it's exposure and like, over time you start to investigate, right, what is that power greater than I? Right, and even for me, even though you know I didn't have substance use problems per se, even just coming back from agnostic atheists I had to search and say what is like, what is that power greater than I? And like I'm still empty. There's so many unanswered problems right where you have to look and search for that. And you know, as robert you mentioned, like earlier, sometimes you know god gives us this grace right where he's and I think it's even though man changed the word god to power greater than I.
Speaker 2:God is using that to give us this grace right because we, because we're so rebellious, we don't want G-O-D Slowly, you know, we get introduced to it and we're like, oh wait, this whole time it was G-O-D and so that's actually helpful in some ways. And sometimes even the people that use a G-O-D they may use a different G-O-D instead of the true G-O-D and can distort it and make and people like run away even. Right, that's worse, so, uh, but it's. Yeah, god is graceful in that way can you do the?
Speaker 3:to answer your, robert? I was thinking about ins. The fact that I am stage sober to me kept telling me that there was something, because I had tried to do it on my own and I could never give up everything entirely. I could quit drinking a little time as long as I was doing other things, and then I didn't doing other things as long as I had alcohol, but I'd never been able to give up everything entirely. And when I started breaking like the three-month and four-month range which was the extent and I think I had about four months of entire complete sobriety in my early 20s and it hadn't been since my early 20s that I had had that but once I crossed that line line, it's undeniable to me that there was something out there that was helping me.
Speaker 1:Wow can we talk about dr dano? You had mentioned earlier and it is amazing to me you yourself, you're a physician, you're a doctor a lot of schooling, assume a lot of that schooling has been talk to us, because here we are talking about the second step, telling us that the scientific, the medical world is still very offish when it comes to this God element, this G-O-D element. Can you talk about that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, some of the reason is with AA and NA. They don't allow research because it's a community where it's run by people. You can't go in there and check who is what I want to say. It's run by people you don't have. You know, you don't. You can't go in there and check who is what you know like and that is I want to say it's kind of like a disguise not to trust the process from the medical community.
Speaker 2:There were, there have been, researchers where they're actually focusing on that to show they have a spiritual background as well and they've done like and that last, maybe five years is when they're seeing. You know we really have data for this, right, that's not just not, oh, someone telling you I'm in recovery, I'm okay, you know like, I'm in recovery now and it's. You know it's what they want. That is helping them compared to actually working the steps and even the science world tries to break down component of recovery into. You know it's hope that you need, it's honesty that you need.
Speaker 2:You know they still remove the God component, right, they're still resistant, just like man. We're resistant to our death by his grace, so we come to him, but they're still resistant. But it takes a lot of pushing, you know you need. It's kind of like orthodoxy, right, you have the light and you have to give it the light to the world, and it's our job to do that as well in all sectors that we are as a physician, as any, you know and so that's one of the things I try to do too when you're going out there and sharing.
Speaker 5:And I think the resistance in many ways is actually appropriate, is actually good, because science has its domain and its methods and so it claims to a higher power outside're actually violating the scientific method of inquiry, and so I think there needs to be that separation. It's not that they're incompatible. Be that separation, it's not that they're incompatible, it's not that absolutely spirituality and science are mutually opposed. You know and and and they're set. No, they, they go hand in hand. But one can't go in, and you know. So science, science can't really speak to matters of metaphysics, right, it can't speak about, you know about, about God and those kind of things. So I think we need to keep that in mind. So sometimes that may come over. As Christians we go like well, why are scientists so antagonistic to spirituality? This is, but if they're a true scientist, they will refrain. A true scientist will refrain from making derogatory commentary on spiritual matters, because that falls outside of their scientific domain and expertise.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. The science can only tell us the how, and we have to explain the why. And who does it behind all that? That's right. Who does it behind all that?
Speaker 1:That's right To the third step, or that you wanted to discuss with, I feel, to step three. Now, what are your thoughts? Do?
Speaker 3:you want to read it for us and give us some insight. Absolutely Made a decision to turn our will, our lives, into the care of God. We understood him.
Speaker 5:I love that, as we understood him.
Speaker 3:I mean little at the end of that as we understood him. I mean little at the end of that as we understood him. Leaves room for anybody I love that.
Speaker 5:I love that.
Speaker 3:It's inclusive, so to speak. This is a cool stuff. I really enjoy this one. This is one that you do with your sponsor. There is is one that you do with your sponsor. There is a prayer that correlates with this stuff and you and your sponsor will say that. You say with your sponsor and I can read that prayer please, yeah, what is that like?
Speaker 5:what is that?
Speaker 3:let me, um, god, offer myself to thee. Fill with me and to do with me as thou wilt. Leave me of the bondage of self that I may better do. Thy will, so in my difficulties, the victory over them may bear witness to those I would help of thy power, thy love and thy way alone.
Speaker 5:Wow, so beautiful. Yeah, there's a surrender there, isn't it? It's a surrendering of saying let your will be done, not mine, thy will be done it's beautiful, absolutely it's.
Speaker 3:It's well. I mean, when I first said this prayer, it was cool. The more I've done this prayer with multiple sponsees and the more you see the beauty in that, at least for me as an alcoholic. I got into that light of being an alcoholic because I hadn't seen the driver's seat in my life. I had made the decisions, I was controlling things. I wanted things to be this way and that way. This is me going. Okay, I'm going to jump into that To your feet now and it's a lot easier said than done, but it's critical. Another critical step, another critical step. So at this point, if you admit there is a problem, we have found a solution and we've asked the solution to help us with our problems.
Speaker 1:Wow, see, there, dave is in it to orthodoxy. Step two, you know, like in a sense of you know, yeah, I believe that there's the big guy upstairs. You know, I'll accept that, right, he's there. But step three is asking me to surrender. And that to me, that's so much more. There's so much there that that's when you got to get involved. You have to become a catechumen, right?
Speaker 1:You can't stand on the sidelines anymore right um, and it's a it seems like a step that just from the outside, that it seems like other work would have to go into that wow, you know that reminds me of what saint paul said about you know, when I'm weak, I'm strong.
Speaker 5:I'm paraphrasing there. But you know, there's a scripture where he says is I'll read it. I'll read it right now, it just came to my mind. It says my grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness. Therefore and this is Paul speaking in 2 Corinthians, chapter 12, therefore, I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses so that Christ's power may rest on me. Right, it talks about you know, I'm weak. We have to acknowledge that Paul was acknowledging that he's writing that he's saying I'm weak so that Christ, his power, his glory, his joy, his life may shine through. And that's isn't that step three? Right there, right, I mean that's connected, absolutely Beautiful. And that's isn't that step three? Right there, right, I mean that's connected.
Speaker 2:Absolutely and surrendering right, it's outside of. It's not me anymore, right, it's not. I can do it. Oh, I tried and you saw. You know I failed. I failed every single day. It's you now? Right, I'm not. I'm going to die into myself, in a sense.
Speaker 5:It's where our white knuckles go to open hands Amen.
Speaker 1:Amen, robert. Well said, well said, dr Daniel. Someone comes to you and they say to you Doctor, I want to get sober. Ever I've read the 12 steps Not into it, don't want to do it, but I still want you to help me. Is there an answer there? Talk to us about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that's a tough one, right, and so you're always working. You know the God, so he's so beautiful that he gives us free will, but he's always everyday working, right. So as you're seeing your patients, you have to also work with them, really see where they are, what they're struggling with, right, why are you drinking? Why do you think you can't give up? Do you see that you're powerless over it? You have to kind of work through the earlier steps, right, and what is your resistance about God higher power, right? Right, and what is your resistance about God higher power? Right?
Speaker 2:Or did you grow up in a specific spiritual background that you know really threw it off for you? Right, I had a patient yesterday that grew up in as a Mormon. They're like God is, you know, like this is like what I know is completely different. Right, their image of God and who he is, what he's, you know, is distorted. You really have to. It's kind of like Christ going, you know, to the Protestant or to the quote-unquote sinners, right, and being by their side instead of, you know, staying from far away.
Speaker 2:Really like you have to love them and show that you care for them and say, okay, what are you struggling with you have maybe medical reasons, psychiatric reasons, stabilize them in a sense to be able to slowly work with that.
Speaker 2:You're building that rapport and that they feel safe to even hear you, right, and so that's kind of like you try to do the love part, right, loving them. It's kind of like preach the gospel when words with words when needed, or kind of like that. Right, you try to do that initially and then, but when they're open, right, it's kind of like what robert was saying, that knuckles are. You see, I'm starting to open up, right, and you're like okay, can we talk about that higher power, right, and and letting them know to go visit an naa, and, and part of the reason why I'm starting my own practice is also so I can freely speak about this. Compared to when you're working for someone, it's kind of hard because you'll be looked at, you're pushing religion or you know in a sense. But we're trying to work towards, you know, where we can freely, from the get-go, be able to allow people to have a freedom to speak about these concepts and allow them to come there um, but yeah, appreciate that we talked about.
Speaker 5:Oh yeah, please, robert just a thought I had about this. You mentioned the sponsor, the sponsor david and I think this is such an important aspect because it tells me of somebody who is like a shepherd. I think, dr Daniel, you mentioned the shepherd and I think this is really important because it has to be somebody that truly cares for you, that truly loves you, and I think you know we have to really be honest with ourselves that there are situations where, even in a religious setting, or sometimes especially so in a religious setting it can be very toxic If you're in a church where your sponsor, your pastor or your priest is not truly loving you or the people around you, even though they're a Christian. But if it's not truly like a sponsorship if you will, if there is no love there, if there's no care there, like a shepherd would look after his sheep, then go find another church, go find another pastor, go find another priest, because we all need to surround ourselves with people that we can trust and who truly love us.
Speaker 5:Spiritual manipulation, misuse of spiritual authority, toxic perhaps the worst of all type of toxicity and abuse right, a lot of spiritual abuse happens. So I think I want to make clear that you know what I see in the, in the what, david, when you said that the sponsoring you pray with your sponsor. That tells me of a beautiful relationship where you can trust this person, and this person is looking for you and for the best of you, and I think this is so important. Oh, my goodness, we cannot go through life without people that we can trust and love.
Speaker 1:You know love us absolutely step, gentlemen, sounds thinking about the life confession made it searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. David, what's here this?
Speaker 3:Is, oh, is searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. This is actually going to be the very first step where you're going to have something integral. It's not going to emit anything. You actually have to sit down. There's three parts to this.
Speaker 3:There's a resentment, part of this, which the book describes as one of the things that take an alcoholic out faster than anything. So I'm you know what I mean. It's then full of my boss. I show up to work and he gets down on me and I'm going to go drink. You know what I mean. I get into something with my girlfriend or I get into something with my parents, or something along those lines. It's one of the things that will take you out. So you have to sit down and go through the resentment you've ever had, not that you've ever had, but something that's more current. You know what I mean. It's good to be thorough, it's 100% good to be thorough, but there's that Then you have to write down a list of your fears, and then you have to write down a list of your fears, and then you have to write down. There's a third part and it's a sex part and it's kind of sex harms, kind of combo scenario.
Speaker 3:There's a and I have to say I have, I've done it one way. I've seen this done, I've seen this done. I've seen thousands of different I wouldn't say thousands, definitely a lot of different variations of how to do this stuff. But they say in the book this is we're getting down to the causes and condition. This is a fact, finding fact, facing mission. This and I'll be honest with you, this is where I lose a lot of sponsee, a lot of people, like you know. They get in and they're like cool step one, full step two, cool step three. Oh, I gotta now, I gotta get.
Speaker 3:You know, now you're feeling good, but you know however many days of sobriety are you feeling better now? You've got to get back into the mud and it's kind of started to face some of the some of the dirty parts and, um, it's not always easy. It's not always easy and it's and I have to speak for myself I put it off. I put it off forever. I actually no, I don't know. It took me months and it was finally I just said, okay, I'm blocking out a Saturday. I was putting my headphones and I was just sitting down and do it all and, yeah, and it's giant. Stuff is huge. This stuff is because, for me, when you get done after a while, after you're doing all this writing, you start to realize that these things that you're writing down have one thing in common, and it's you, you know what I mean I had walked in AA going.
Speaker 3:You know I drink and I use, because you know.
Speaker 5:Because of this, because of that.
Speaker 3:Because of my FOSS and because of my ex and because, you know, because of this, because of that, Because of my fuss and because of my ex, and because you know, my mom passed away and I was feeling bad and it was you know this that, whatever I figured, well, you're a victim, you know, yeah, yeah right it actually starts to show you that the only thing that all of those things have in common is you.
Speaker 3:You're the common denominator in all of those. It just starts to open your eyes. There's still a lot of steps to go, but you're starting to go. Man, I'm just writing down the same stuff. It's just me, self-centered, self-seeking, and it caused a lot of problems. Huge, Huge step. But I would say this is the step where a lot of people will get to and just stop. I've had a lot of sponsees not get past this. I've had a lot of sponsees trying to put this off forever and never get it done, but an absolute mandatory was the recovery that you're living for.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So this is a big step in a sense. Right, there's a lot in it and there's a lot to sort through. Right, you've, in a certain way, for a long time and that's led to a lot of consequences.
Speaker 2:A lot of relationship hurt, right, a lot of that has gone, so it's a lot of unpacking it. Lot of relationship hurt, right, a lot of that has gone, so it's a lot of unpacking. It can be very overwhelming, right, and the devil is there too, right, pointing fingers at you, trying to shame you, trying to. There's a lot. It's like a web, right, and it could be very intimidating. And that sponsor, right, that community, right, that you need that. Right, the church has that community in a, something that you need that. Right, the church has that community in a sense. Right, and we definitely have to normalize substance use and things like that so we can support one another even stronger.
Speaker 2:Uh, but, but it's, it's not easy and that's why you have, you know, people with real traumas too. I've had patients tell me oh yeah, I can't go with god because my catholic priest raped me, like there real, real harms that are done too that we have to be able to sort through, right, that's where you go into the physician and you're saying, okay, there's my part. They may have done this, which I guess in the next other steps we'll talk about, right, david, but this is a big step and there's a lot of emotions involved. Right, there's the fear. All that gets replayed. So it takes months. Right, this is not a one you know small step that you just do. You're really unpacking. It's like you're cleaning out your whole house, multiple houses. Right, it's not over the years. So it's a big step and people, people need to be supported at this step.
Speaker 5:Right, right, there's something about writing it down, isn't there, david? There's something about taking your thoughts and then putting it down right. There's that physical step right.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. And I think one of the things my counselor told me to do when I was because there's order in a system that you do it in and you write like who you're resentful at, just to write why, supposed to, you know, and then there's some other sections I don't want to. I won't get all super into it. He said the reason why too much, simon. Now, this is about you, it's not about them, and so I resent full ad. You know I, I was just, you know, because you, you know he upset me. I'm just like he upset me.
Speaker 3:I don't. I don't need to get into the story and elaborate there's the focus is on me. It's a I've got to be looking at the things that I did not what needed. So it's like the steps, going over the order of these steps do, and then you have to sit a shot with how it affected you, you know, I mean, and they get to like five different examples of how it could affect you financialities, you know. Personal, you know, whatever it goes, relationships, yeah, yeah, yeah and and there's mental health as well.
Speaker 2:Right, there's many things that. So this is why recovery is you're trying to have everything together, right. You're working your steps with your sponsor. If you need to have therapy for the different things psychiatry, your medicine, stabilizing it's a whole comprehensive thing that you need to do so you're actually can get through this right. Otherwise you'll go right back.
Speaker 1:Minded of trying to remember who it was that said it right now, but the idea is that my mind and heart are focused on my own sin. I can't be focused on my brother's sin, and I see some overlap there with this step. You know, like you said, dave, it's about there to work on yourself. You're not there to, and I'm going to tell you all these stories of all these people that wronged me. You know what I mean, but yeah, that's powerful.
Speaker 3:This is that step that would take somebody who stemmed from being a victim. I mean, you'll hear it, I've heard it in rooms where a lot of people will say, oh, they're speaking victimese, and you know, they're young, they're new into the program, because they're still pointing fingers instead of owning what it is that got them into that situation. Also, when I started preparing for my first confession, it was exactly the same. It was exactly the same because I'm having a look and these darn so pretty sides of myself and admit that Myself. Oh man.
Speaker 3:You know what I mean. I've got a lot of work to do. Yeah, so true.
Speaker 5:This reminds me of this picture this passage in the Gospels where Jesus says I have not come for those that are healthy, but I've come for the sick. I've come not for those that are healthy, but I've come for the sick. I've come from those, not not for those that are can see, but for those that are that are blind. Right, and guess what? We're all sick, we're, we're you know. We just haven't acknowledged it. If we think we can see and that we're not sick, right, and I think that's so beautiful because this step speaks right to that, acknowledging that you're blind. I believe when Jesus said that he meant that for all of humanity, we're all blind because we all need him. But the point is to make that personal and to say I am that blind person, I am that sick person, I need God, and that step speaks to that. No, david.
Speaker 5:I mean it's like boom, there, it goes, so beautiful and there's a liberation that happens. For that, my burden is light, my yoke is easy. Jesus said right, wow.
Speaker 1:I imagine that you start feeling now oh, it's not just me, it's God with me, it's God with you, you guys, as we turn here to step five, the fifth step, I cannot help but think about Psalm 50, which is a prayer that, as Orthodox Christians, we know well, we pray often, and I would argue, maybe one of the most powerful prayers in Christendom. Uh, in, in in christendom, um. One of the one of the lines for I acknowledge my transgressions and my sin is ever before me, right against the god, have I sinned and done this evil in thy sight. And with that can we talk about the fifth step here, what this is about, about the fifth step here and what this is about.
Speaker 3:Jump in on that really quick and it is such a short step. But it's in hidden words, right, I'll just read it out real quick Hidden to God, ourselves, to another human being exact nature of our roles At this stage of the game schedule with your sponsor. It's at least. I mean I've seen we book out of six hours. It's scarier, some can go longer, some can go shorter, but you sit down with your sponsor and you read him everything that you wrote down and you forced out Everything that you read and it is humbling, it's absolutely humbling. It's one thing to sell these things down and say you didn't do it, you know what I mean but it is something completely different to have to go yeah what I did yeah, then, and own it and um robert said, there's a even just to writing it down, dave.
Speaker 1:There's. There's utility to that right, there's an efficacy in that process. How much more so in the wisdom of the church, is the practice of confession, describing dave to an orthodox christian. That's confession, that's the beauty of confession. Thanks be to god. Right is to be able to do this just once, but again and again and again. Because? Why? Because we need it. And it's there to help us.
Speaker 1:It's there to give us this transformation, to begin to slowly put that old man behind us, slowly but surely move towards light. And I just I love hearing this, david, because seeing I mean this takes me back to why we originally wanted to do this entire episode is there is an absolute overlap, uh, synergy with synergy, thank you With orthodoxy recovery.
Speaker 2:Yes, orthodoxy is the truth, right, and then the way. So it permeates in all of our nature and what we do Go ahead, david.
Speaker 3:Hey, man, there's a couple of things that happened because of this too. That is, now you're accountable to somebody. You've got somebody else who's listening to you, yes, who's understanding this, and he's pointing to you and going go. Okay, I see you now. Better than sweet. Now I can understand you a little bit and then moving forward now and kind of address the things that are about to pop up, because now I know you a little better. Also, I think that's a big thing, at least with the spots in a scenario also in the book, this, I think that's a big thing, at least with the sponsor.
Speaker 5:Yeah, it's a lot to meet on a scenario? Yes, the relationship.
Speaker 3:Yes, also in the book they tell you this is part of the deal is, after you've done your four-step, after you've said everything to your sponsor, go home for an hour, sit in silence. No radio, no TV, no, nothing. Sit in it for an hour of silence by yourself. You go over your poor stuff and make sure that you didn't leave anything out. And if you did, you need to call your sponsor and immediately get it out of the ad. Then anything bad is detrimental, detrimental. It could be that the wrench in the bitch you know what I mean like if you get so far down the way and you have that back and now you start feeling guilt about that. That little bitch and like pull you out of a and for surprising. You know tasks.
Speaker 5:So oh that's quite a uh, quite a tender, a tender type of process, that step where you're opening self-disclosure and you're vulnerable. And that's also why I think it's so important to have a very supportive and a good relationship with this sponsor, as we needed in church with our father confessor. Right, that needs to be a healthy relationship. But, wow, what a tender moment that must be to disclose all of you really. You're laying it all out and much of it, I'm sure, is not pretty, and you're laying that out and it's all of it. So you're saying, if you're leaving something out, go back, because it needs to all come out. What a beautiful thing. But, boy, that must be, I can imagine, very difficult.
Speaker 2:To add to that real quick. The beauty is even in orthodoxy. It's like whatever you present to God, he's the ultimate physician and he's going to heal. Before even I did addiction medicine, I did family medicine. If you didn't tell me what your problem was, I can't help you. You have to come and lay it all out. You can't keep anything hidden. That's what David said. If there's anything, you better go and call him again. You have to come and lay it all out.
Speaker 2:You can't keep anything hidden, right, Like that's what David said. If there's anything, you better go and call him again. Same thing with confessions right, we're emptying it out and saying this is heal me, right, and you're seeing it again and again. And that's, if we hide it, we won't get healing.
Speaker 1:I want this out there right now, real quick. Actually, dave, I'm going to give you the last word. You and Dr Daniel I'll say this quickly For you that are listening right now that maybe you yourself, where you're at in life, maybe struggling with something I would offer you find an Orthodox church near you, go and speak to a priest, because you're seeing here four men who have experienced, in God's grace, the healing power of Christ through his church. These steps, which we've only talked about the first five so far are emulated in many ways in the wisdom of the church and how the church approaches passions and our sin and our faults, our failures and our shortcomings. So I hope that this episode has been helpful.
Speaker 1:We are planning to do a second part to this where we talk about steps six through 12. And please be on the lookout for that. But with that in mind, I'd like to give the floor to Dr Daniel and then to David. Dr Daniel, what would you like our audience to be left with today? What are some closing thoughts that you have for our audience with today?
Speaker 2:What are some closing thoughts that you have for our audience? Yeah, so we'll have more episodes, obviously, and talk more about substance use and orthodoxy For the listeners. You're not alone, right. I want you to know that God created the whole universe and everyone around us so that we can find salvation and peace and love all that even before we go to heaven. And so there's hope. And I want you to reach out to an Orthodox church, like Jeremy was mentioning. There's help out there. If you're not ready for God and the spirituality, you can still come. Reach out to your doctors as well. Find someone that's spiritually based to kind of guide you in there. We'll also talk about stigma and all those things on other episodes, right, so that you can feel welcome to not just the substance but to have a fullness in your life.
Speaker 1:Amen. Doctor, how can our audience find you If they would like to reach out to you? Can you tell us about your organization and how they can find you If they?
Speaker 2:would like to reach out to you. Can you tell us about your organization and how they can find you? Yes, so our organization is called I Am Recovery Right now. We've started our care. We accept insurances as well Not all of them, but we're still getting worked on that. You can personally reach out to me at the moment because we have certain hours that we work out. It's not a full-on base, but my email is danielagueza at gmailcom for now, if that's easier to reach, and then we'll have more information on the next episodes about it too.
Speaker 1:David, turning to you now. What would you like to kind of wrap us up? What do you hope this episode is going to accomplish for those listening right now?
Speaker 3:Well, I say this I would hope that if you are watching this episode and you are struggling with any kind of addiction whether it be alcohol or drugs, or food or sex or whatever so you know there is hope, that there is a way out. Um, I am fruit and I am not perfect by any means, but, um, there is a solution, there is a, and I'd like to thank you for watching as much as you have, and if you're really feeling that, reach out, it should help. You are loved. You are loved and there is a solution.
Speaker 5:Yeah, and perhaps our audience. If the audience have questions for Dr Daniel or David, leave them in the comments below and then in part two we can dedicate a section to answering your questions. Perhaps you have some thoughts, suggestions, critique, and we'd love to address those for you, so please participate in that, if you will.
Speaker 1:Amen, that's an awesome idea. I love that. We look forward to hearing your questions for future episodes. Thank you for listening this long. This has been Cloud of Witnesses Radio To our guests. Thank you, guys, god bless you and we're signing off.
Speaker 5:Take care, thank you.
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