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From Evangelical Protestant to Orthodox Priest | The Story of Fr John's Conversion to Orthodoxy | TIO002 CWP069
The story of Fr John Reimann's conversion to Orthodoxy. Fr John is arch-priest of Saint Anthony the Great Antiochian Orthodox Church in San Diego, California.
May you be edified herein and blessed throughout.
What happens when a spiritual journey defies expectations and takes an unexpected turn? Our guest shares a deeply personal and transformative account, beginning with a challenge from a pastor that ignited a spiritual hunger in the heart of a predominantly Mormon southern Idaho. From the frustrations of fluctuating church leadership and theology to the inspiring broadcasts of Billy Graham and the thought-provoking "Jesus Christ Superstar" album, discover how our guest found a profound understanding of Jesus' humanity and divinity, eventually solidifying a deep and personal connection with Christ.
Follow along as this journey unfolds at UCLA, where academic pursuits in early Christian and Byzantine art history introduced the rich traditions of the Orthodox Church. Hear about the impactful experiences at Greek Orthodox services and the meaningful shift from evangelical roots to embracing Orthodox liturgical practices. This episode takes you through pivotal moments, including encounters with influential figures like Bishop Peter Gilquist, which ultimately led to seminary and a lifelong commitment to promoting the Orthodox faith. Join us for a compelling narrative of faith, discovery, and spiritual illumination.
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But I did tell him at that time. I said but, pastor, the problem I have is it's not a worship service. I said I've timed it In the whole hour we do of the worship service. We only spend five minutes of that hour directly worshiping or talking to God, and so he was really good. He said to me OK, then you research and find out what we should be doing. That was one of the best things that ever happened to me, but also it sent me right to a place where I wasn't going to end up staying with them.
Speaker 1:Father, how did you tell us your story about coming to Christianity? So I was fortunate, being born in 1957 into what was still pretty well a Christian culture, being raised in the southern part of Idaho on a ranch, but however, it was a part of Idaho that was overwhelmingly Mormon. My family we were the only family that was not LDS, and I don't even remember actually going to church with my family. We would go on holidays like Easter. For Christmas, we'd go to the closest church we could find anywhere. It was a Protestant church that was in Lava Hot Springs. There wasn't even a Roman Catholic church in the area. It was that Mormon. Our parents didn't find out that we were attending the Mormon church with the other kids until it came to the Christmas program and my sister-in-law, I, had parts to do. I do remember that because I hate getting up front of people and speaking, so I was even paranoid of that at that time and mom and dad allowed us to do that because we had committed to it. But I remember getting the message that we weren't supposed to go after church there anymore. And then God, in his sense of humor, decided to move us from that ranch in southern Idaho to south-central Idaho. My father unfortunately had an accident because he was stacking hay, fell off the hay truck and injured his back. So we moved from off the ranch to a small town called Mackey.
Speaker 1:But what was really interesting, right across the street from where we had the motel, was the Mackey Methodist Community Church and in fact they ended up joining the church. They had Tony and I baptized at the church there. We were baptized in the Methodist practice of sprinkling and I remember that very, very clearly. And I remember going to the church with my folks and then, unfortunately, some scandal not scandal politics took place, but it caused enough of a scandal for my folks that they stopped going. But Tony and I felt like man, we should go. This is what we seek to do. So I think God had already put in me a heart for the craving of something spiritual, for the faith, and I really thank God for that introduction in the Methodist church, for the basic emphasis of Christianity it had. But in my mind, learning the faith through them, and I also went through confirmation in the Methodist church.
Speaker 1:There as I continued to grow, the church began to shrivel because some of the other pastors they started sending in were not teaching the same faith. They came out of more very liberal seminaries and one pastor I remember even said at the end of his sermon are there any questions? And then he said are there any answers? And of course I'm saying in my young mind that's what we're here for, to get from you. And it was rather frustrated. I was frustrated and more and more people dropped out from going to the church. All that was left was the little old ladies and a few of his kids.
Speaker 1:I do know that my theology was still off. I was de facto a Nestorian, not knowing it, but I was a Nestorian. I believe Christ was fully God. That wasn't an issue. But I couldn't relate. But it was a historian. I believe Christ was fully God, that wasn't an issue. But I couldn't relate to him as a human. It didn't make any sense to me in the sense of him dying on the cross. He's God. He can make the pain go away, no big deal, all right. So it was hard for me to relate to Jesus and his humanity and it wasn't until my sister went off to college and coming back from college she brought back this album, jesus Christ Superstar, from the play that had just come out, which of course is quite revolutionary for the time and actually, in its depiction of Christ, very much heretical. It's coming from two secular Jews who are very talented. What was so amazing is that God used that. Now God also used before. I listened to that.
Speaker 1:We would watch Billy Graham every now and then on TV when you'd have his crusades and Dad and Mom and I would sit and watch Billy Graham and I remember being convicted by the things that Billy Graham would be saying about wanting to have that personal connection with Christ. I felt that I did have a connection somewhat in the Methodist Church, but it was something that was more given to me. I hadn't made it my own, but I was embarrassed to do anything in front of my folks. So one time mom and dad happened to be out of the room at one point when they had the altar call and I remember praying, getting on my knees and praying to receive Christ at that point. But once again my understanding was Christ is fully God. I didn't get him as fully man. It wouldn't be until God would use something like Billy Graham, the Methodist Church and, of course, jesus Christ Superstar, which is so dealing with Jesus as being fully human but also realizing that he died in his humanity, that it wasn't that he made the pain go away. He endured all that and he did that as God for me, and he didn't have to, but he chose to do that because he loved me.
Speaker 1:And by the time I was finished listening to that album, I was doing a full prostration on the floor, because that seemed to be the normal position you should be when you're just slain by the truth of God and what he's trying to do in our life, in tears, thanking Christ for what he had done for me, and that slapped me right to the center and made me a little orthodox, with a little O. Okay, I fully understood Christ as fully God and fully man, and by this time I had kind of also stopped going to church as frequently, had dropped out a little bit, also stopped going to church as frequently, had dropped out a little bit. And that's about the time when the church made its move to drop out from the Methodist church and become evangelical. About the same time I did and then came back with a vengeance and from that point on there wasn't a Sunday that I wasn't at church. It just seemed the thing to do. So that was kind of my experience growing up there in Idaho.
Speaker 1:And then I chose to go to UCLA because I wanted to become a medical doctor. I thought I could come back and help my community. But the first Sunday I wanted to go to church. That's normally what you do. So I walked down and there was a Methodist church, beautiful Methodist church, and unfortunately I got a little frustrated because after being there for a few Sundays in a row, I only heard Jesus' name mentioned about three times, and two of those was in Jesus' name. We prayed and I thought I've got to go someplace where there's more Jesus. It's gorgeous, beautiful, but I just wasn't hearing enough about Christ.
Speaker 1:So I walked down Wilshire Boulevard to the next church that was there, which was St James Episcopal Church, and came in St James Episcopal Church and what I experienced there was something that kind of floored me. Also, it helped that there was two sweet little old ladies, one in the pew in front of me, one in the pew behind me, that were friendly to me and were trying to help me because I was like a fish out of water, coming from an evangelical church low Methodist evangelical church to kind of a high Episcopal church at that time was quite rattling to me. My pastor in Idaho said that liturgy and sacrament were a corruption and perversion in the early church and of course I had believed that until I started taking my classes at UCLA. And at UCLA at that time they were having us to try to find the truth ourselves by looking at the primary sources. And for one of the history of Christianity classes that I had signed up for and then dropped very quickly because I didn't like where it was going with the professor, but I kept the book, and the book was the History of Christianity by Kenneth Scott Letourier, wonderful, concise history of the church, east and West up to modern times, written by a guy who identifies at the introduction as a Baptist and I thought well, I can understand, he's a fellow evangelical. But he gives credit where credit is due. And in his early part of his book on the early church he says the early church was liturgical and sacramental. And that threw me for a spin. Now, how is an evangelical is saying that? And I had my own pastor who was an evangelical who said that it wasn't. And so, in true UCLA fashion and the history department is to look at the primary sources. I can read the scriptures myself and we can all read the scriptures and have a debate and argument as to what they mean. But what did it mean to the generation of Christians? That it was written to second generation Christians? And so that's when I started reading some of the church fathers, as I, I was taught you look up the primary sources. I started reading what St Ignatius of Antioch had to say about the Eucharist and that just floored me. I realized, yeah, kenneth Scott Latourier was correct, the early church was liturgical, it was sacramental, and I actually ended up joining the Episcopal Church there. I was very happy with the community there.
Speaker 1:But there were some other things going on in the Episcopal Church some of the ethical and moral things that were very disturbing to me and after having kind of an unfortunate experience in confrontation with somebody there, I opted to leave the Episcopal Church there and go back to find an evangelical church that was close by. And that's when I went to the University Bible Church. But unfortunately it lacked the liturgy when they would have a midweek liturgy. And I did that for a period of time. And it's interesting later on what I would do OCF come back to Los Angeles for my ministry, I would end up doing Orthodox Christian Fellowship in that very chapel.
Speaker 1:Then, when I finished up, I went back to my hometown in Mackey, idaho, and I realized, oh, that's not where I want to be. I really believed God was seeking to lead me that way, without coming down from heaven and saying this is what I want you to do. But he was guiding me through that circumstance. But I was trying to be faithful, to figure out what is the will of God but also what's the desire of my heart. And the desire of my heart was not to be running an electric co-op utility there, for the, as important as that was, it was the most important job in that town. I could have been making the best living of anybody in that town. I could have been making the best living of anybody in that town, but that's just not what I was called for.
Speaker 1:And so I knew that if I was to say no to this job, I needed to get active in searching out teaching jobs. So when I started searching out teaching jobs, I said no to the job. Then I got help from other people with placement centers. I was getting listings of teaching jobs from five different universities, including my own, and that was at a time when there was a glut of teachers and there was nothing available and I would get something in. Send out a letter. They immediately gave me a response saying sorry, we've already filled the position.
Speaker 1:So finally, in about the second year of working there in Mackey in the store, I decided I need to go down and interview. I love the Russian Orthodox proverb that says pray to God but row to shore, that we do our rowing as much as we can to get out of that lake when the storm clouds are coming up, but we have to pray continually to God that he would help us to make it to the shore. And so I went in and spent a whole day at the placement center and I was trying to be really gracious with the gal who was working there asking for all the listings that they had, looking at everything. I even looked at foreign placements. I looked at Pakistan. I looked at Pakistan. I looked at India.
Speaker 1:Same problem, though catch-22. In order to get a job there, you had to have three years teaching experience. I had no teaching experience. I can't get a job unless I have teaching experience, but I don't have it. So how can I get a job and how can I get the experience?
Speaker 1:So I go back to Mackey rather disappointed, feeling like I had done this work and that there was no fruit to it. Once again, we don't know what happens when we do those efforts. It may not be the exact time at work from Page, arizona, and it was from the assistant principal there at the middle school who was saying we pulled your file at the placement center at UCLA and we'd like to interview you for a teaching job. So I didn't know anything about Page, I'd never been there. When people get out there and see how isolated it, people who had accepted job quit because their family freaked and they left them in a lurch, having to scramble to find a teacher. But what ended up happening is they didn't know how isolated I was all up in Mackey already. I don't know how this is gonna happen. Oh me, a little faith, I mean. God really opened a path and when I went down there and I interviewed with them, by the end of the day they offered me the job and it's the last place I thought I would be able to go. I'm totally away from family. There were a lot of good churches that were there, but it was very isolated.
Speaker 1:A story that I didn't mention before is that at UCLA I studied a lot academically about the Orthodox Church. So I had an evangelical faith. I had an appreciation of liturgy and sacrament from the Episcopal Church, but I knew academically about the Orthodox Church. I also took the art history of early Christian art and the Byzantine art history classes. All my focus of the upper division classes were in the East, the Orthodox East, and so all my research papers except for one dealing with the Bogle Mill heresy, all of them were dealing with the Orthodox Church in some way or shape. So academically it was all there. It was amazing when I went to go back and look over those papers I couldn't believe. I mean, god was just so preparing me step after step after step after step, and so I had this incredible understanding of the Orthodox.
Speaker 1:Academically, I could appreciate the Orthodox for their adherence to the faith and the practice through great persecution. I could read about the martyrdom and I had no idea that these people had suffered terribly, even during the Crusades. The first Crusades were devastating. The first people to be victims of the first Crusades from the West were the Orthodox and the Balkans Appreciation of them academically and admiration for them and even my own devotion At home. I even started getting my own icons, having my own icons made and setting up a chapel, actually a closet. I cleaned everything out and made it into a prayer closet. I would use some of the censer and a prayer book from the Episcopal church I had.
Speaker 1:But I remember feeling that that seemed so much closer to the authentic way that the early Christians from what I knew from my church history from UCLA. So all those studies were very helpful for me. And he would make the sign of the cross the way the Orthodox did, because I felt there was probably the older way of doing it, the more original because all these other things seem to be as well too. But I didn't quite understand the Orthodox. I kind of thought their theology seemed to be and yes, it was different. There was a huge different emphasis between the West and the East. And I just thought, well, maybe it's because the Orthodox, you know they've been sniffing incense too long, you know it's clouded their brains and their thinking, and because I didn't quite understand what is this. Did you go in to join God before his heavenly throne and the worship comes into this place? It sounds kind of like I don't know Dune, where you're kind of folding space in the liturgy.
Speaker 1:And I actually, at UCLA, a good friend of mine, craig Stevens, took me to the First Orthodox Liturgy, which was a Pascha service at Agia Sophia, the biggest Orthodox liturgy, which was a Pascha service at Agia Sophia, the biggest Orthodox church there in Los Angeles, the Greek Orthodox cathedral. It was all in Greek. The buckets in front of me and the pews were Greek and phonetic Greek, so I had no idea what they were doing. It looked beautiful, it looked majestic. I learned the Christos Aneste in order to be able to say the response, because it was done so many times and we were there at the very beginning before the church filled up and we were there at the very end. It was an amazing experience. It was such a great experience that I took a group of my fellow UCI students Christian students there the next year. I said you got to experience this. It's amazing, right, but I had no understanding of what it was because it was locked up because of the language.
Speaker 1:I had this growing sense and appreciation of the Orthodox Church and had incorporated some of those things in my own private prayer practice. And then, as I was there at Page, arizona, I got involved with the Conservative Baptist Church there of Page, a wonderful church community and the pastor there. He was probably one of the best pastors I've ever had, one of the easiest ones to be able to talk, to talk to him about anything. I learned a lot from him. I was happy to serve teaching church school.
Speaker 1:I was in the choir. They had me singing solos like I was back in Mackey at the Mackey Community Church. It was stuff I didn't want to sing. It was so schmaltzy I didn't like it. But I did it out of obedience because they had asked me to do so and of course I don't like to hit them in front of people. That's another reason. And then, finally, they had asked me to help lead the evening worship service. And that's one of the straws that broke my camel's evangelical back, because that was when the pastor said we want you to lead this evening worship service and take over it, which was great, because they're trying to entrust me with something that's very important. It's not the main service anymore. I wouldn't be preaching, I would just be leading the worship.
Speaker 1:But I did tell them at that time. I said but, pastor, the problem I have is it's not a worship service. I said I've timed it. In the whole hour we do of the worship service, we only spend five minutes of that hour directly worshiping or talking to God. We talk about God, so it's an evangelical service, it's a witnessing service, a testimonial service, but it's not really talking to God. We talk about what God has done for us. And so he was really good. He said to me well, okay, then you research and find out what we should be doing. That was one of the best things that ever happened to me. But also it sent me right to a place where I wasn't going to end up staying with them, because I started getting books at the time from Moody Press, from Multnomah Press Worship, old and New Worship, the Missing Jewel.
Speaker 1:I'm reading these things. As I'm reading these things, what worship should be? A man called Weber who, I believe, left the Evangelical Church when the Episcopal Church. I hope to God he gets his way into the Orthodox Church before he reposes. I've got the books back there in my office and everything I'm reading everything's connecting together. It's all connecting together. I'm going. Everything's connecting together, it's all connecting together. I'm going. Oh, I see what they're saying what worship should be biblically, what it should be in the Old Testament, what it should be in the New Testament, what it should be in the history, what it should be theologically and everything that it's saying what worship should be in these evangelical Protestant renewal worship books is pointing me to the Orthodox Church because of what I had studied at UCLA and at the same time, coinciding with my quandary about this.
Speaker 1:I in the Arizona Republic picked up the religion section and it told me about this evangelical Orthodox group throughout the country in the United States, based in Goleta and instead of Arbor now st Athanasius was the mother church back at the time that they were coming in canonically to the Orthodox Church and then the bishop Peter Gilquist, of blessed memory. He was visiting there in Phoenix at St George's Antiochian Orthodox Church and did an interview with the Arizona Republic about their coming in and this was quite phenomenal. The people go from evangelicalism to Orthodoxy. It's like a 180-degree change. And it's like I've got to get to know these people, because I remember even at one point praying to God.
Speaker 1:I felt so torn between what I was trying to do in the worship services at the Conservative Baptist Church, what I felt we should be doing by what I knew and had studied from before, and what we were actually doing, and I remember crying out to God, god, I wish there were an evangelical Orthodox church, and of course I didn't know that they really existed and they're actually coming into the Orthodox church, and so I contacted them. They got back immediately with a letter setting up a visit for me over my Christmas break to go, and I actually stayed in some of their homes. Some of them are clergy now and it was at the first liturgy that was ever done in English that they did. They weren't canonically in the Orthodox Church at that time. They were using the music that was the Protestant hymns, but with all the Orthodox words. So like joyful, joyful, we adore. Thee was the hymn to the Theotokos they were using with the words to the Magnificat, and so it was music I could sing along with, but they were all doing it in English and they were all participating and I was to me. All the lights went on, and what it reminded me of is my history when the envoys of Saint Vladimir went to Constantinople. But it was the liturgy and the people's participation that just all everything came together. It was just like an experience of the Holy Spirit.
Speaker 1:I went up to then Bishop Peter Gilquist and one of the few times words come out of my mouth which I had no control over, I said what can I do to promote this church? And he was so good and humble. He said, well, we're just trying to get our foundations on straight ourselves. And so, sure enough, when I got back, I be lying down to St George Antiochian Orthodox Church in Phoenix, and so I'd go back up to Page and it was a five-hour trip one way, and there would be some time, some months. I would be there every weekend.
Speaker 1:I just like this is the fullness of faith. I can't go back to where I was before, even though the church I was involved with in Page, arizona, was the most with it church, the things they were doing, great ministries, wonderful people. But it's just like I had tasted of the heavenly banquet of God. All the lights came on and even though I wasn't really illumined, I felt there was a spiritual illumination and sense of knowing the truth here. I couldn't go back to what was there before. It was like bread and water, and when I have the heavenly banquet, or bread and water, I feel like I've got so much to learn. So I talked to Father Anthony and he brought me in to the Orthodox Church there at Phoenix and that's kind of then where God put on my heart that you know, if you really want to do more, if I really want to live up to those words that I said to you know, peter Gilchrist, what can I do to promote this church? God was putting on my heart to actually go off to seminary.