Prepare to be challenged and inspired as we tackle the complex dance of faith within the arena of cultural conflicts. Our special guests, John, Priscilla, Robert, Jeremy, and Veronica shed light on how Orthodox teachings of love and forgiveness can be executed in a society often marked by an 'us versus them' mentality. We dissect the provocations within Tom MacDonald's "Facts" featuring the unlikely rapper Ben Shapiro—a music video that has stirred up significant debate by questioning progressive ideologies and giving voice to the silent majority.
Our panelists don't hold back as they weigh in on the effectiveness of Ben Shapiro's foray into rap and its potential to disrupt societal norms. We explore whether such media can serve as a modern-day 'holy fool,' awakening society through discomfort and prompting essential dialogue. This episode doesn't just observe the ripples from the outside; we immerse ourselves in the heart of the cultural wars and assess the role of Christians in these charged debates, contemplating how we might wield art and music as tools for reflection and challenge.
Finally, we confront the paradox of division within dialogue, pondering over how to maintain unity while standing firm in truth, a balancing act that Christ modeled exquisitely. In an age where cancel culture casts long shadows over the landscapes of forgiveness and understanding, we deliberate over our responsibility as Christians to navigate these treacherous waters. Will our discourse become a casualty to the cultural skirmishes or can we find a way to uphold truth while nurturing communion? Join us for a journey deep into the essence of faith, culture, and the art of conversation.
Thank you for journeying w/ the Saints with us!
Prepare to be challenged and inspired as we tackle the complex dance of faith within the arena of cultural conflicts. Our special guests, John, Priscilla, Robert, Jeremy, and Veronica shed light on how Orthodox teachings of love and forgiveness can be executed in a society often marked by an 'us versus them' mentality. We dissect the provocations within Tom MacDonald's "Facts" featuring the unlikely rapper Ben Shapiro—a music video that has stirred up significant debate by questioning progressive ideologies and giving voice to the silent majority.
Our panelists don't hold back as they weigh in on the effectiveness of Ben Shapiro's foray into rap and its potential to disrupt societal norms. We explore whether such media can serve as a modern-day 'holy fool,' awakening society through discomfort and prompting essential dialogue. This episode doesn't just observe the ripples from the outside; we immerse ourselves in the heart of the cultural wars and assess the role of Christians in these charged debates, contemplating how we might wield art and music as tools for reflection and challenge.
Finally, we confront the paradox of division within dialogue, pondering over how to maintain unity while standing firm in truth, a balancing act that Christ modeled exquisitely. In an age where cancel culture casts long shadows over the landscapes of forgiveness and understanding, we deliberate over our responsibility as Christians to navigate these treacherous waters. Will our discourse become a casualty to the cultural skirmishes or can we find a way to uphold truth while nurturing communion? Join us for a journey deep into the essence of faith, culture, and the art of conversation.
Thank you for journeying w/ the Saints with us!
So in some sense, like none of this is new, the cultural wars Is just a certain incarnation or variation of all these kind of themes, and the answer has always been the same the Orthodox faith really leads first and foremost with asking for mercy, self-denial repentance forgiveness, love and working towards unity, which is the opposite of the cultural wars, which is us versus them approach to the life.
Speaker 5:So very good, joan. Wow, yeah, I love that.
Speaker 6:Hi, this is Jeremy. This is Cloud of Witnesses Radio. This is our yes, but series Welcome.
Speaker 7:My name is Priscilla. I'm a guest on Cloud of Witnesses today and I'm honored to be here Hi.
Speaker 8:I'm.
Speaker 7:Veronica Hi.
Speaker 5:I'm John.
Speaker 6:Hello and I'm, Robert, Really excited that you're joining us today. We have a very interesting episode for you. We are going to be delving into a little bit of the pop culture slash, you know political culture war that's going on. How many of you guys are aware of Daily Wire? Have heard of Daily Wire I have yes, yes.
Speaker 6:It's really interesting. They've kind of taken on the banner of. It seems like they want to take on Hollywood and they're going to produce whatever they can in the face of whatever Hollywood's producing, whether it's movies, music, etc. So today, guys, we're talking about this video by Tom McDonald. It features Ben Shapiro. Interesting, yeah, it's called Facts. You guys ready.
Speaker 7:Yeah, I don't think that maybe let's go.
Speaker 2:They call me offensive, controversial.
Speaker 1:It's only two genders, boys and girls. They can't cancel my message because I'm the biggest independent rapper in the whole freaking world. Play, none of them races. Yeah right, I'm not ashamed because I'm white. If every Caucasian's a bigot, I guess every Muslim's a terrorist. Every liberal is right. I don't want to talk to folks who don't get it. Go. I'm alone. Sons in the thugs or your daughters into hoes.
Speaker 6:All right. Well, yeah, I just will pause it there. This is obviously a statement. There's a statement piece here. I feel like they are planting their flag down saying we're not woke Hollywood. We are not what you're used to seeing on the mainstream media, whatever that means anymore these days. We are in your face, conservative. I think that's my gut reaction. What do you guys think?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, perhaps I think they have a. It shows an interesting spokesman to be such a non-conservative, at least appearance and person. Although if you're familiar with his track listings and other work, this is right on point for what Tom McDonald normally speaks about in his music. But I think the Ben Shapiro edition is quite surprising. I didn't see that coming.
Speaker 7:I think within the first 10 to 15 seconds they already had a lot of topics Like it's kind of a brash.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I feel like that's one of Tom's MOs is just to rip the band-aid off or something. Not many words, but it's sort of this genre as well, I think, to really be kind of in your face that way.
Speaker 5:So Right, he says, I was put here to upset you.
Speaker 5:He says yeah, I'm going to offend you, but that's what I'm trying to do because I'm trying to get your attention. So yeah, it's very interesting. Like you said, priscilla, I mean he really just kind of opens up and just lays out a lot of things right there. I mean he's talking about there's only two genders. They can't cancel my message because I'm an independent rapper. And then he brings up racism. He says I'm not ashamed to be white, and if every Caucasian is a bigot, then it also means that every Muslim is a terrorist. So I mean he just pulls a lot of things out of his hat right there.
Speaker 7:Yeah, it seems like it's very immediately anti-Red Pill movement, anti-progressive movement, that sort of thing.
Speaker 8:Yeah, I mean everything that we heard so far in the first little bit. There is just all these big issues that have been going on the last how many years now, Like three, four years maybe, and I feel like a lot of us who agree with him in that sense are kind of like hushed and we can't really talk about it. And he's kind of coming out and making it. He's just saying it for all the people that really can't say it, because we kind of get slapped on the hand if we talk about anything that's not in a grants with mainstream media, mainstream liberalism, everyone at all.
Speaker 5:Yeah, exactly, because, even if you don't agree with everything he says, I mean you've got to take your head off for him just having the guts to say the things that he's saying and, like you said, he's giving a voice to people and I get the feeling that this is like a reaction. Right, it's kind of like this reaction, a reaction against all the things that, like you said, veronica, a reaction of all the stuff we have to say something, or he feels like he has to say something.
Speaker 7:Yeah, I can even pinpoint it down to about 2014, my senior year, whenever same sex marriage got legalized. And so from 2014 to now 2024, that's a decade, that's 10 years of just this whole buildup, where all this stuff has been happening in between and we've been told to kind of just hush about it, and I guess this music video is just saying enough's enough.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I guess I commend them for speaking. Like Robert was mentioning, I heard someone once say, and I kind of tend to agree any sort of movement, political or otherwise, that doesn't have an opposition voice is something to kind of be afraid of. Right, you'd have at least a kind of a conflicting point of view in order to kind of have a dialogue. I had a professor in grad school who used to say like every, every colloquium needs like some heckler on the side at like, screaming like where's the where's the Hamiltonian for your physics right?
Speaker 2:Otherwise you're just making stuff up.
Speaker 5:So yes, even if it's just for the sake of the freedom of speech, right, every opinion needs to be heard and if you squash that, if you prohibit opposing views, then that's, that's a troubling thing and I think that's, I think democracy suffers for that. Good point, john.
Speaker 6:I'll pick up on that a little bit, john the idea that there should always be that counter voice out there. For years at least, ostensibly, that was the media, right. The media was the gatekeeper. Right, the media held Hollywood accountable, held these various institutions accountable, at least in theory.
Speaker 6:I think and it's interesting that it's the topic tonight has been talked about like this is a reaction right to all these years where a segment of the society has felt like they don't have a voice. Right, they've been canceled, they've they've. You know, when they watch Netflix, when they watch a movie, you know, in the movie theaters it doesn't reflect who they are. And I feel like part of that is because maybe the media in some ways has not lived up to its job. Right, because I think I feel that way as someone who is an Orthodox Christian, you know when I see what the media does and how the media reacts to you know major movies, netflix shows, you know pop culture, things in general, it's always with applause and oh, isn't this wonderful? And how inclusive all this is and all that. And I certainly have never felt really represented. So this does feel a little bit like a response to that.
Speaker 8:Well, yeah, and like a few of you mentioned, you know, the beautiful thing about the US used to be how, you know, we have a democracy and we all have different views and it was okay. You know that that was what people immigrated to the US for. You know, that's the beauty of this country, and the past few years it's been very much a movement where if there's one view and if you have the opposite view, then you know, you don't, you can't talk about it, you can't voice it, if you don't agree with one view, you're wrong, and so, you know, they've kind of been. A lot of us, I think, feel like we're just getting it all pushed down our throats and getting, you know, stifled, like we can't say anything, we can't voice our opinions or views, and so, yeah, this is kind of the gut reaction.
Speaker 5:Exactly, yeah, and what's so ironic or strange or scary about it is that classical liberalism actually defends this kind of openness of opinions. It's kind of principle of you know that one can be free, you know, free press, no repercussions if you disagree, that type of thing. But it seems like, like you said, jeremy, that they've capitulated and the media has just given up on that. It seems, and it's really, you know, really kind of a sombering, if not scary thing to see, to see that happening in our lifetimes, kind of surprising.
Speaker 8:It kind of reminds me of. You know, obviously I'm for those of you who don't know I'm of Russian background. You know my family's Russian, ukrainian, belarusian and Serbian. So you know my mother. She grew up in communism and a lot of what's happening from what she told me of her experience growing up in communism, a lot of it's like starting to mirror these really like sad times from those days and, like you said, it's not really like a liberalism or a democracy anymore. It's completely different now. It's almost like a mirror of, you know, some communist ideals now, which is definitely, definitely not what our country was built on right.
Speaker 7:I'm excited to hear Ben Shapiro's part.
Speaker 6:Is he?
Speaker 7:going to rap, absolutely.
Speaker 6:Yeah, I just listened a little more to what this is and, by the way, someone brought this where's. The lyrics are here somewhere. I've got. I pulled them up for you guys. Yeah, I have the lyrics. Did you guys know that this is like the number two trending song on YouTube right now? Like it's something like 10 million views already? So we saw what this much so far. Something like is this about as far as we've gone?
Speaker 5:Yes, Somewhere in here To the BLM flags, I think.
Speaker 2:We got through the pre-chorus. We got through the pre-chorus.
Speaker 6:We got through the pre-chorus so, that's like there's a missed opportunity. It's pretty interesting, isn't it? You know it's, I don't know. I want to say if facts, no printer.
Speaker 2:Right, that would get everybody. What's that, john? That's like? Isn't that like the cool kids maybe like young cool kids say facts, no printer.
Speaker 8:Okay, I don't know that one, that is. That is apparently what they say. I've heard no cap If you explain that.
Speaker 2:I heard no cap because facts sounds like a fax machine it's, I think I don't know what it means. Maybe I'm swearing at you right now I have no idea.
Speaker 5:I just had to laugh so hard when Ben Shapiro came on. I just the things he says and how he says it. I saw one comment. Somebody said that Ben Shapiro, you know I was expecting him to go like, you know, rattle off real fast because that's how he talks, right, and then his rapping is kind of slow. I thought it was kind of funny, but he says some really fun things, oh gosh.
Speaker 6:What does he say? What are some of his lines there, Robert?
Speaker 5:Well, it's kind of interesting because he's chiding people. He says you know, look at my charts. I'm blowing, you're blowing money in strippers and cars, you're going to prison, but I'm on television Like he's just, you know, kind of sticking it to people. I just think it's funny in the way he says it Keep hating me on the internet. My comments section all woke Karen's.
Speaker 7:Wow, he put shots at a couple of other celebrities. He throws shots at Nicki Minaj, and so that's interesting.
Speaker 2:Oh, and I hate I'm even going to make this analogy, but like, so, like in the American political sphere, maybe Tom MacDonald or this song is behaving in some way like a holy fool in the Orthodox church where it, like it's just kind of absurdly over the top, right, I don't necessarily without knowing more about Tom or Ben just taking a face value like we're doing now. It feels like it's hyperbolic to a point like for a reason not necessarily. These are all my convictions that I'm laying out to you. Right, let's reason off of these axiom beliefs. I almost feel like it's just carnival for the sake of trying to get people awake. Yeah right, I don't know. Just a thought there, cause it's kind of like Shapiro's lyrics, I think are kind of silly.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 2:In a sense right Right right, but like on purpose, or maybe it's just because it's ironic to see him doing it.
Speaker 6:This idea maybe of you know I like how you brought that in, john. I love that, the idea of a holy fool, a fool for Christ, you know, cause, certainly they were known for saying things that people didn't like to hear, certainly that weren't comfortable. They made a lot of people very uncomfortable and made you know, even some ways, the way they lived. You know, I'm thinking of some examples where I think they would barely clothe themselves in some instances.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 6:And I'm wondering, john, if that's what kind of what you're getting at, that this isn't almost going over the top.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, it's breaking through all that. You know our social taboos especially, and I mean I don't maybe not in Texas, priscilla, but certainly in Southern California where we are, you know everything is very proper and sort of. You know, peas and carrots, thank you, things are great. So happy Hashtag blessed that kind of stuff. So, like I think this, yeah, the severe language kind of, is breaking through all of that.
Speaker 7:It's the irony in trying to portray it to this particular audience in a way that they can understand that they end up becoming like them in a way.
Speaker 5:Yeah, right, right. And I'm wondering if there's a case of you know, are we fighting with fire, are we making? You know, are we doing two evils here, or is Tom doing that here? You know where. You know, for instance, like I don't like the term culture war, you know, are we talking wars now? That's so adversarial, you know it's so. You know, like we're looking for a clash, we're looking for a fight, and I just don't like that.
Speaker 5:I just, you know, I think that is not conducive to a civil discourse to say you know, you're not my enemy, let's work this out. I want to hear your perspective, hear my perspective, and you know that type of thing. And I'm not so sure that this is really getting us there. You know, I think it gets our attention and that's good. And I'm not saying everybody needs to be all. You know. Just, you know, you know three peace suits and you know, like politicians or something like that, in a boardroom or whatever, you know, or you know, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just thinking that this, this stirs people up, but to what end? You know to what result.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a very cautionary tale there. I mean, veronica, you were mentioning communism and stuff. I mean so like people's emotions can be easily manipulated for any purpose, right, so you get them all stirred up. Gotta be careful with that energy. But I kind of almost heard you like writing down the lyrics, robert, for a weird Al Yankovic version of this song where it's a moderate view, right, I want to hear your thoughts, I want to know what makes you. No, I can do that.
Speaker 6:Yeah, what do you guys think in terms of? You know we're all Orthodox here and you know, obviously, this perspective. I've said this before. You know, as much as I might in some ways agree with a lot of what the daily wire produces in terms of ethical political positions, perhaps certainly being pro-life that type of thing, certainly politics is not the answer. You know we're not looking for a kingdom on earth in a political sense as Orthodox Christians and I feel that ultimately, you know Ben Shapiro himself. He denies that Christ is God and I think that's an issue. And I'm not sure Tom McDonald's affiliation, I would imagine. Perhaps maybe he's a Christian, I don't know, it sounds like John, you might know a bit more about him personally. But my question is is that, you know, is this type of thing in any way in line with how an Orthodox Christian would approach a culture war, kind of Robert, to go to what you were talking about? Is that even such a thing in orthodoxy, and should it be?
Speaker 7:I would say an instance absolutely not just because of the things that you've mentioned already the fact that you know he is a politician. He is a Jew who rejects Christ. So no, he is not a representation for Orthodox Christians.
Speaker 8:Yeah, I think some. I think John was saying earlier how this video is just over the top, and it is over the top, I mean how he sings. You know, I don't care if I offend you or I want to offend you or whatever it is that he says. You know, like, as Christians, we're not trying to offend, we're not trying to go out of our way to offend anybody. You know we're not trying to like, that's not, that's not the goal. You know, the goal is to have, like Robert was saying, is like a, like a, be able to have a good civil conversation, a good, you know, happy medium where both sides can, both voices can be heard. But I think, as Orthodox Christians especially, there's a fine line between speaking like this to try and convince someone of our, of our point or our views. You know, I think that's kind of not the path that we should be doing or going down.
Speaker 7:I mean Ephesians. My belief says we wrestle not with flesh and blood. You know, it's a spiritual battle, spiritual war.
Speaker 5:Yeah, and this is further, this is further factions, right. Does this further create dividing lines? Is it hardened dividing lines? And that's something that I think is real concern, because is it really helpful? You know, I think obviously things need to be said, things that we disagree with or that we're you know that are important, that need to be said and it, you know it may, it will likely offend people, but I think we also have to concern ourselves about how, how do we can, how do we say that message right, how do we convey that? And now, this rap song is a powerful, you know, music is a powerful medium and rapping is powerful. So it is a form of art, I think, and so so I, I think, I think there was a place for it. So I'm not all against it. I'm even enjoying the music. I was just kind of getting into it, that's how you're moving along, yeah.
Speaker 6:The funny thing is I like it too. Actually it's been stuck in my head for a couple of days. Yeah, you know kind of maybe against my will, but it definitely it's got to. It's a catchy tune there's a great artist.
Speaker 2:I think his name is Timothy Brindle. He's a rapper and also, like a dispensationalist, christian and he actually has this double track or double CD album that is an entire exposition of the Bible. Wow, and it explains how crisis is present in the Old Testament. It's a wonderful. Anyway, that's a that's sort of like the other. That's the other end of the spectrum. Yeah, he's a fascinating individual.
Speaker 6:That is fascinating. Yeah, we're going to watch the rest of this, jeremy. Yeah, you guys want to kind of see how this is going here.
Speaker 2:Okay, here we go. He's trapped in a box.
Speaker 3:Right, yeah, there's a visual.
Speaker 1:You blame everybody else for every problem that you can.
Speaker 3:You said, you said, you said I won't never have a story. I don't care if I offend you. I was put into a say. You can cry and you can scream. You can ride in the street to the funding the police. There's no one to protect you. I'll buy a venue. I asked myself what would be new. Let's just keep it real facts. Don't care how you feel, man, if you want my pronouns, Okay, guys, that's it.
Speaker 6:I swear he says that. He says let's just keep it real. F-a-g-s. Yes or no? Do you guys not hear that?
Speaker 7:I heard that I call it.
Speaker 6:Yes, that's what I've thought this entire time. I almost want to say the written lyrics are edited. Wow, Because to me that changes the whole, because for me that was going to be a conversation piece. But then, when you guys didn't hear it or it wasn't in the lyrics, I thought, man, I was just getting this totally wrong. What is? Can we? Play back a little bit, yeah Is it facts F-A-C-T-S, I mean that would make sense.
Speaker 2:Is that what it is?
Speaker 8:I think it is Because he's wearing this water. That says facts on it.
Speaker 6:Yeah, that's the name of the song. And that's the name of the song. Facts.
Speaker 5:Maybe it's a deliberate, you know it's a cautionary tale to work on your singing pronunciation.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 6:Can we play that last part a little bit? Yes, see what I'm talking about. Okay, here goes, oh no.
Speaker 5:Oh, I think it's facts. You see what I'm saying. Oh, I hear it. I hear it too. Wait, John, what do you think it is?
Speaker 2:I think it's facts. But I'm naive and gullible. I just find it fascinating. He's stuck in a box the whole time. Yeah.
Speaker 5:It sounds like the slur to me now that you pointed it out.
Speaker 6:I mean, please understand that, because I did. That's what I thought he was saying this whole time. Okay, and it's only until tonight that I actually look at the lyrics. And so I thought I'm like man, my point was going to be that's when you cross the line, right, right, it's one thing. To sure he says I want to offend you, I want to be in your face. If he is doing that, and now that we've had this conversation, I'm not going to accuse him of doing that. Yeah, I don't, that's what he was doing. I would say that to me is completely wrong. And that's when, all of a sudden, you know we've talked about this before right, revolution always eats itself, right. Yes.
Speaker 6:The revolutionaries of today are the establishment of tomorrow, and then they are the victims of the next revolution, right, right. And that's one of the hidden cycles of secularism.
Speaker 5:If he says that, that would yeah, that would definitely be not good. I don't see any references in the other parts of the lyrics that references homosexuals or same sex or something like that. So I don't think so anyways. So I don't know. And then the song is F-A-C-T-S, so right.
Speaker 7:If you listen to the sentence before it, literally let's just keep it real Facts Like that's how rapping works.
Speaker 2:Right yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 8:It sounds like facts to me, okay.
Speaker 7:The song.
Speaker 6:Well, that's good. See, that real. I'm actually really glad to hear this you guys, because the whole time I was kind of really, you know.
Speaker 8:Yeah. We're listening to.
Speaker 5:Yeah, it'd be interesting to see if anyone else picked up on that or thought that, because there would be comments to that and I'm sure people would be upset, you know, if it was.
Speaker 6:Can we talk briefly you guys about? I like John pointing to the fact that kind of visually it is interesting, he's in a box and one of the early lyrics of this song, or I think he repeats it. Even he says what would Ben do? And I think that's a play on what would Jesus do? No, and I think there's. Those are one of those elements that it's very telling is, for a lot of people I will say it, even myself in my own life years ago, politics was a religion. It was a religion I was. You know I spent more time listening to, you know, the news, reading news articles and debating politics with people than I did praying and going to church, probably combined.
Speaker 2:So I'm still stuck on before this with the cultural work piece because I'm wondering, I'm just I'm trying to imagine for whom this would be, you know, resonant with right. I get like a general sense from a variety of different people. I talk with right Because people just want to, they want assurance, I guess, or they want I think it's like what would Ben do is because Ben Shapiro is relatively famous for going viral on the internet, for talking really fast and quote unquote, owning people with logical reasons, statements, right, the. So the cultural war, yeah, I kind of I agree with you. It's not where we fight our battles, like Priscilla said, and although it feels like it could be, because we might identify certain powers of principalities in the culture. But when you mentioned that, I was thinking of like and I know, let me get this out and then I'll be quiet but so people want to like, get behind someone who's fighting for the right thing, and so, if we think about what Christ was doing, he did put a lot of people in their place, so to speak, but it wasn't the political authorities right at all.
Speaker 2:He was actually pretty quiet and respectful right before a pilot, and always folks like. It was not a political thing. He was putting the religious leaders in their place for leading everyone astray, and he was quite compassionate and loving to all of those who were really hurting. So I think the cultural war is kind of a distraction and it doesn't matter who's, if that war even exists, whoever's winning the war. Christ's example to us is that we need to be defined by love for the others, and even our enemies, and that's probably not what is engendered by this show or this movie or song.
Speaker 8:Yeah, yeah, I really don't like the how he says what would Ben do Like. For me that's very much like false idol vibes, because that's like putting Ben Shapiro on a pedestal where really we should still be thinking what would Jesus do? That's ultimately the goal, not what would this political type leader person do. And also, I mean we could agree with some of the things he says, but there's a lot that I don't agree with. So I don't know. I think there's definitely a danger in having that sort of mentality where we're, you know, putting someone like that up on a pedestal. But I don't know, that's just my personal opinion.
Speaker 5:Yeah, and I also don't like that. He's picking on people, on his opponents, right? He's just kind of me saying, like you know, you're doing this, you're blowing money, you're going to prison, but I'm on TV and I'm making money and all of this stuff. It's like what is that all about? I was expecting more insight from Ben on that. Yeah, same Something. You know what I mean Something more smart, clever about the situation, you know.
Speaker 7:I feel, like these two. Oh, you can finish your fuel.
Speaker 5:No, I just wanted to say that, yeah, I expected something clever, not smack, you know. I feel like he's just smacking, you know, and it's like okay, come on, you can do better than that, you know.
Speaker 7:I feel like these two are on the right track, but they're not entirely there.
Speaker 8:Hmm, the intent is there, but the execution's a little off.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm not totally aware of all the nuances of the genre, but I mean, Robert, maybe talking smack is part of the genre.
Speaker 5:Yes, that's true.
Speaker 2:The rappers have battles all the time and they Right, it's all part of you know, it's all in the rules of the combat.
Speaker 5:No, true that that's true. And the whole negativity that we're seeing, I think it can be said to be part of that whole genre. Right, Just like you said smack.
Speaker 6:You know, yeah, I think that's an interesting question. You know, one thing I take away as we you know, maybe, guys, we can go around one last time and give our closing thoughts on this is, hey, he got us talking about this stuff. You know, this is true and I love that kind of thing. I love things that make you think.
Speaker 6:You know, I would imagine that there are some people out there who would maybe disagree and say, well, why are you even talking about this? You know, it's not Orthodox content, it's not even from a Christian necessarily content or Christian perspective. But I think the beauty of Orthodoxy is I do believe that Orthodoxy is a comprehensive answer for everything you know, maybe not an answer in the sense that it's going to. You know, it's not a science book, it's not a political guide, but yet it is the fullness of the Christian faith and in that we have the ability to have a perspective right, lord willing, and enlightened perspective by the grace of God, to see these things from a Christian perspective. So I hope that's helpful and edifying to anyone listening to this.
Speaker 5:For sure. Yeah, I just want to give him props for the courage to say what he. You know he's obviously not holding anything back and that takes a lot of courage, and you know he's talking smack, but you know again, maybe that is a good thing in this context, even if we don't agree with everything. Like Jeremy said, he gets his thinking and I think that that that is least that's important.
Speaker 8:Yeah, I think overall the message is I like the message in the sense that you know it's nice giving a voice to us. You know people who feel like we can't speak out against certain things. You know I like that idea a little over the top, you know, definitely a little abrasive, you know that's not my style, but overall it's. You know it's cool that they feel like they can try and give a voice to us people.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I think everyone here is talking about things that came to mind after watching or thinking about the themes of the song. We're really excellent and remind us about what is most important and foremost. It is interesting, jeremy, you mentioned like the second most trending song on YouTube, which I mean it could be kind of alarming. Maybe not every, every group of five people was having this kind of deep dive on human intention and reasoned dialogue. Hopefully more people are. But I think, veronica, you mentioned like your family's upbringing and in parts of communism, like, so once like, and then facility.
Speaker 2:You mentioned that Think St Paul reminds us all that our, our battles are against the spiritual forces in the world and so in some sense, like, none of this is new. The cultural wars is just a certain incarnation or a Variation of all these kind of themes and the answer has always been the same in the Orthodox, faith really Leads first and foremost with asking for mercy, self-denial, repentance, forgiveness, love and working towards unity, which is the opposite of the cultural wars, which is us versus them approach to the life.
Speaker 5:So very good Wow.
Speaker 8:Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 6:That is yes. I almost wish we could have led with that, John. Can you get those ideas out sooner next time Now? But really that, that right there, put the cap on it. You know, this type of Dialogue that that Tom McDonald is creating is divisive, right, isn't it? It's divisive almost on purpose. He literally says it in the lyrics, right? I'm trying to Draw a line now. It's interesting. Can I push back just a little bit, john, before I let you go? There's your want came and divided.
Speaker 6:Right in the sense. It didn't he say, you know, yes, he even mentions your parents. Right, he will, he will. I can't think of the exact line from scripture where your parents were turned against you, I will turn you against your parents and your, your mother and your father. I think is something along those lines right?
Speaker 2:And yeah, absolutely right.
Speaker 6:We are called, as Christians, to unity again and again and again. Can you talk a little bit more? Or any of you guys jump in about how? Where is that juxtaposition?
Speaker 8:This is it. This made me think of trying to remember. I can't think of it off the top of my head. What is it that they? That thing that Joshua says all the time that's from about the comfort or the, the good, uneasy, the good uneasy, the end to the. To that point. It's where Sometimes, you have to bring up the tough topics, the tough conversations you have to bring up, you have to make it an easy In order to like that's like, the form of love is, you know, not just saying, not just saying it's all okay, you know, we're all, we're all good, we're all equal, whatever. But that good and easiness where you have to make someone uneasy, to kind of I forgot what saying. It was us that said that. You guys know what I'm talking about.
Speaker 2:I Haven't heard Josh say it, but now I'm gonna ask him.
Speaker 8:He says it all the time. It's from some saints I can't remember right now who it was, though or it's from some book by yeah, so that's what this kind of makes me think of, you know.
Speaker 5:Yeah, and there's no, there's no doubt, I think, that that Truth divides, right, I mean it. It separates, right that the lies from the truth, and and and, and. So I think there's definitely that, jeremy, but then how does that? How is that brought about? Though, I don't see Christ picking up a sword, I don't see him. I'm fighting, right, he's not, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's just. You know, I, I, just. That's the problem I'm seeing here. We're talking culture wars and we're talking about, you know, smacking people and all this stuff. I just, I just don't see that in the Gospels. You know, even though Christ does divide, right it, the truth divides, it is, it's divisive because some people say, well, I don't want to believe in the truth, or I don't believe in the truth, or you know, or you know, I think yeah, I think it's a Truth itself.
Speaker 2:Forgive me, robert, I would say doesn't divide it. Actually, you know, it's the. It's the content, yes, of communion With God. Is what truth is. It's people's reaction to the truth.
Speaker 5:That's better put yes. The result is yes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the result is that that people separate themselves according to that that rule is right as we will.
Speaker 2:We will be judged by how we judge others. And so I think, jeremy, as Christ is saying, right, you like you must choose me over your mother, or your brother or your sister. I think that's the division, right, it's. It's you either for me and with me, or an offer Christ, or you're not. And it is. It is hard, you know, like in the most benign case, it's like, what are you gonna do on Thanksgiving with your non orthodox family? Or what are you gonna do during their Easter, tired, when it's not yours? Those are real, legitimate decisions you have to make and figure out. Am I gonna hope, like, can you talk to your priest and figure out how to be a witness? In all of those cases, I, but I think that's the, that's like. That's like maybe the only real division that I Don't know. I'm speaking about things which I know, I know nothing, but I think that's the, the kernel. There the Division comes. It's like we see it in Peter, saint Peter, and then in Judas. They both respond to Christ.
Speaker 5:Christ is the same, but they both have a dramatically different ways of Responding right, but the point is is that you don't go about dividing people or creating division.
Speaker 5:Yeah, you're yours, you're, you know, christ is the truth, he's telling the truth, he's living the truth, right, and that is a uniting principle. But, like you said, how people respond to that, that creates a division, right, some people join him, others don't, and and there there is the divide, and so. But I think what we're seeing in this culture warm, what we're seeing in these rap song songs, is that we're seeing actually people wanting to divide and saying I'm dividing, you know, I'm here to divide, I'm here to to separate, and and and.
Speaker 2:So that's where I see the difference between Christ and and and and this, this song and I, and I think the real stand might come for us someday, if I Like, because they're here. They're talking about all the buzzwords for the cultural wars of Gender pronouns and all these things, but really, you know, I perceive a decreasing Willingness to to forgive people of things right, I mean the whole cancel culture that that comes up as part of this. Where you make one mistake, even if it was 400 years ago, but we're still going to judge you today based on that. There's no opportunity for repentance, for recovery. Maybe a few people somehow navigate being canceled and I know this is part of Tom McDonald's stick right is that you can't cancel me because I'm independent. He says something similar to this in there. But so I think the yeah, where we have to take a stand is not on those issues, but actually doing like forgiving people that offend us Right in an environment where it's so hard to forgive.
Speaker 7:At least Amen, and I'll just say really quickly you know, the scriptures tell us that the Wheat and the about the wheat and the tears, and so I think that that will happen naturally. The separation you know the more that we stick to truths, grace, mercy and love. You know, in naturally, separation and the division will occur by those that are choosing to separate themselves, and Christ actually warns us Not to go out of our ways to provoke or to try and cause Division, because in doing so you could actually rip out the surrounding ones. And so our job, necessarily our job as Orthodox Christians, is to Live, you know, the best possible. You know righteous life In the image of God that we possibly can, and then just Live out like that the rest of God.
Speaker 6:Yeah, well said, priscilla. Also, that's a great way to end this, this episode today. Guys, I want to thank you all very much. This was excellent. I apologize about my technical difficulties. I've been nodding along with all of you. I promise not just a stoic, blank stare that you see there Again. This has been Jeremy with Priscilla, veronica, robert and John. Thank you so much. This is cloud of witnesses radio. We hope that you enjoyed it. Please leave your thoughts in the comments, like and subscribe and we hope to see you again next time. Like and subscribe and we hope to bring you more such content in the short term future. Thank you, and God bless you.