Her DAD Wanted to Abort Her | The CHOICE of Abortion Considered | Yes!...But... | YBT004 CWP041

This weekend was the 2024 Walk for Life San Diego.  In light of this event supporting pro life views, our Cloud of Witnesses: Yes...But... panel discusses the issue of abortion rights and the moral and spiritual implications of the choice between life and death.

Imagine uncovering a secret that shakes the very foundation of your existence: you were almost never born. This revelation isn't just a plot twist from a novel—it's the starting point of our latest conversation, where we navigate the emotional labyrinth of a woman whose father considered abortion during a tumultuous time in her parents' marriage. The story, shared in the context of the San Diego Walk for Life, pulls us into the heart of the abortion debate, revealing the intricate tapestry of personal growth, understanding, and forgiveness that can emerge from life's darkest corners.

Discussing Brett Cooper from the Daily Wire, affectionately known as the female Ben Shapiro, we go beyond the surface to examine the cultural tide of individualism and its collision with familial responsibility. Brett's story shine a light on the comprehensive nature of the pro-life discourse, reminding us that the sanctity of life and moral clarity aren't gender-specific but rather an intrinsic part of our shared humanity. Together, we peel back layers of societal influences to reveal the spiritual undercurrents shaping our choices in the realms of family, divorce, and the sanctity of life itself.

In the warmth of our candid exchange, we turn the spotlight to the often-understated influence of fathers and the historical Christian teachings encapsulated in the Didache that have long stood against abortion. We confront the ethical mazes navigated by medical professionals, affirm the conviction that life begins at conception, and extend a hand of hope and healing. The Christian Church's role in enveloping women in traumatic situations with love and guidance comes to the fore, with Matushka Olga's legacy illuminating our path. Our dialogue culminates with an encouragement to mothers—and all grappling with life-altering decisions—to find strength and solace in their faith and community, championing the untold potential of every life.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Anyone want to. This is your last chance to back out now. No, I get it.

Speaker 2: 0:03

All right, I'm gone.

Speaker 1: 0:12

Hi this is Jeremy.

Speaker 2: 0:13

Hi, I'm Alexander.

Speaker 3: 0:14

Hi, I'm Anastasia. Hi, I'm Hannah.

Speaker 1: 0:17

Hello, I'm Robert and this is Cloud of Witnesses, our new series, yes, but a very special day. We had the San Diego Walk for Life. This is a group of us that were just from a couple of parishes down here in San Diego, and so today, kind of fittingly, we're going to focus on that, just in case the audio gets cut off. In the beginning part, she says my dad wanted me to be aborted. And here we go.

Speaker 5: 0:46

I need to be aborted.

Speaker 2: 0:47

How did you learn about that?

Speaker 5: 0:48

I was calling my mom about abortion and I was like I'm just so conflicted right now. I know that it's morally wrong that we are going back and forth, and my mom is incredible at showing both sides of it. She would argue it from the perspective of the mother. She would argue it from overprotection of the unborn child. All of this would go back and forth. What makes the most sense? And she was like I'm going to be very personal with you. And she was like when we found out that I was pregnant, mike wanted you to be aborted. And she was like we knew our marriage was over. This wasn't obviously planned at all.

Speaker 2: 1:16

Do you wish you hadn't heard that?

Speaker 5: 1:18

I don't think so. No, Wow.

Speaker 2: 1:21

Wow.

Speaker 3: 1:21

That's incredible yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:23

That sounds like her parents' marriage was falling apart. Is that what I gathered from that? Yeah, at the same time.

Speaker 1: 1:28

Yeah, okay, her parents were divorcing is what she says, and I guess because of that the Jack had come forward and said hey, let's do this, let's abort this child.

Speaker 6: 1:40

I can see his point, because they made this child out of love and the love is no longer there, so I guess that was his point of view, unfortunately, thank God they didn't. Thank God that they didn't. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:59

That's kind of my initial gut reaction to this video is, for those of you in the audience that don't know I'm sure you do, because she's basically blown up over the past year, year and a half or so that's Brett Cooper of the Daily Wire production team. She teasingly gets called the female Ben Shapiro, which is kind of fun. But think about what she's done and the impact she's had on what, at this stage, millions of people, I think in many ways for the positive, and to think that her life maybe would have been snuffed out from the beginning. It's kind of hard to even think fathom.

Speaker 4: 2:37

Yeah, I saw this complete interview, or at least the larger context of this video, and she said that she forgave her dad over this. She came to a point to forgive him and I thought that was a very touching and she understood his position. She came to understand his position and why he wanted her to be aborted Because I think they were hard up for money, is my understanding Just the circumstances, of course, like the divorce and all this. So that helped her understand why her dad had that position at the time and perhaps not so obviously, but he came to regret that ultimately he didn't really want that to happen and praise be to God it didn't happen.

Speaker 3: 3:29

Well, her story is kind of interesting because she has a very complicated relationship with her family and I think it's just a really incredible example of how so much beauty can come out of something that's really tragic, and I imagine that there was actually a lot of healing for her father when they got to a point where they could talk about it and he was remorseful. And, yeah, it just goes to show that it's like there's no price on life and it's just incredibly valuable and beautiful even in moments that are dark and uncertain.

Speaker 6: 4:05

Yeah, kind of a reason to go forward with this unfortunate, harmful, very dangerous procedure.

Speaker 3: 4:16

Thank God that they didn't go forward with it, and it's very different than her mother as well.

Speaker 2: 4:24

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 4:24

I would say that sort of mindset is sort of indicative of where we kind of are as a culture, where there are personal feelings and I guess like not that this would be a gratifying circumstance, but in general, personal feelings, personal gratification, personal advantage sort of take precedence over something like duty and like the duty that you have to your family.

Speaker 2: 4:55

So, as you know, as a man it is your duty to raise a family and to guide your family and whatnot, even through difficult times where you feel like, I don't know, maybe you may not love your wife Of course that's easier said than done but I feel like the idea that you no longer love your wife or your husband or whatever. Thus you need to get divorced, thus you need to have an abortion for the child that you're having or whatever. It is sort of indicative of that sort of more, the more individualistic direction that we have headed to and are currently in as a culture. So I just sort of think that it just makes sense that her dad would think or believe or say something like that, unfortunately, but I think it just sort of attracts you know, yeah, no, alex, it's so true, right, it's so sad that we do certainly live in a culture that thinks that way.

Speaker 1: 5:53

you know the perspective that, oh, you know, if you you're getting a divorce, or oh, you're about to start school, or you just got that big promotion at a new job, you know, these are some of the reasons. Or, oh, we're broke, right, we can't afford it. Yeah, the reasons that are often thrown around as to why a couple should contemplate, you know, aborting their child.

Speaker 2: 6:16

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 6:17

And, I would say, killing their child. You know, and I think that's really what it comes down to is, you know, from my perspective as an Orthodox Christian, it's that, you know, we're talking about a human being, we're talking about a person created in the image of Christ. Right, yeah, they share the likeness of God and it doesn't matter, I don't care how broke you are, I don't care if you're living in a cardboard box. Now, that being said, I want to be very, you know, understanding and sensitive to obviously charitable. Yeah, yes, Thank you.

Speaker 4: 6:59

I think we have to really wrestle with that and not just you know, and not just say, oh yeah, well, it's legal, yes, it's easy, and yes it's, I can afford it.

Speaker 5: 7:08

Yes, it's quick.

Speaker 4: 7:09

And yes, it's. You know we get all these kind of things and you know, and I think the abortion industry is really, is really, really important. Yeah, we can't afford it. Yeah, so yeah, it's really important to be able to be able to do that. And the abortion industry, if we want to call that, they'll of course, you know, they'll say, hey, it's safe, it's legal, it's easy, Come on in, we'll even support you financially or whatever. We'll do, whatever, you know so you're not going to hear any kind of thing from the abortion pushers right from the clinics, you know. So I think people have to, you know, have to think for themselves. We have to think really about the issues that are at stake here. And you know it's more than just a job or financial circumstances.

Speaker 2: 7:56

It's, you know, it's a human life first and foremost, yeah, and it's also your soul, your spiritual, as the perpetrator. You know what I mean, right, right.

Speaker 3: 8:06

There's you know I've been thinking about this a lot recently there's just like it's so tragic because, like, one of the biggest gifts that God has given women in particular is this ability to create life, amen, and to make a human being and shape a soul.

Speaker 3: 8:23

And like, if you're like for us, hannah, you and I, as Orthodox women, like bring them up in the life of the church, and humanity has been devalued in a very deep and extreme way. And there's some it's not even just like the physical act of an abortion, it's the spiritual act and like how that impacts us as women. And that's just like completely overlooked in, like very broadly, which is like I would even say somewhat understandable, because if you're arguing with the secularists, you can't necessarily they don't understand the spiritual aspects of it, so you can't necessarily bring that into it, but it's like it's undeniable, even like secular women will say I like this abortion was like very damaging to my soul and it's just, it's just incredibly tragic and there's like probably some like way darker forces behind it because, I mean, it's like your, it's like the antithesis of like what human, what women are like made to do. It's like create life, but you're you're taking life and and like nothing's going to destroy humanity, like faster than that.

Speaker 6: 9:40

So Aborting our children. Even though you may be dirt poor, even though you may live in a cardboard box, you know there's still adoption clinics and there are. There are houses for women.

Speaker 1: 9:51

I want to pose a question to the group here. You know, I think there are some people who might be watching this who would say something along the lines of you know, why do you have, you know, three men on there and only two women? And you know this is a women's issue, right, Jeremy Alex? You know, kind of Thank you, Thank you, but no thanks. What's what's our response to that? Why is a man's perspective meaningful, or is it?

Speaker 2: 10:20

It's a human issue, you know it's a, it's a Christian. It's a Christian issue fundamentally because, because Christianity is the truth, it's fundamentally a Christian issue and it's also a human issue in that, you know, it doesn't really it doesn't whether or not I'm a man or a woman, the life, it doesn't change my perspective, whether or not my perspective is correct on whether or not a life is a life or a human being or not, or whether or not a fetus ought to be valued. The perspective doesn't matter, because you know, that would be sort of just be like. You know, just because my personal experience isn't too, or my, you know my personal law in life, my personal job is to give birth to, to, to another human being. It's kind of irrelevant because, you know, as a man, as a human being, it's not like men are complete or are absent from the process of creating a human being. You know what I mean.

Speaker 1: 11:21

Not yet, not yet.

Speaker 4: 11:23

Well yeah, that's hey man. Yeah, you have a huge moment, you're trying, you're trying.

Speaker 4: 11:30

Yeah, you know, just answer your question or to respond to. You know, just thinking about your question, jeremy, I think that you know the role of the father, you know, is super important. First of all, of course, it takes two to tango, right, you wouldn't have a child without the father. So obviously the father is very important, but also important to be that leader, to be the, the, the support, to be there to see the. You know the process of life, the beginning of life, come all the way to fruition, if you will.

Speaker 4: 12:03

You know that that's the role from conception on right, that's, it's not just conception and, okay, the father is out of the picture, although that happens all too often, unfortunately, but ideally, you know, it takes two to tango and that dance, that dance goes on for for a lifetime and and I think that because of that, the role of the father, of the man, is, is, is very important. So we have a voice in this and it's not a voice of condemnation or a voice of pointing the finger. Oh, the women are dropping the ball, they're doing this abortion thing and no, wait a minute. No, and oftentimes, so what? You hear many stories where it's actually the, the, the father, husband or boyfriend or whatever the you know, they're the ones pushing for the abortion.

Speaker 3: 12:54

I mean it's, it's unthinkable, very much so Well and like men play a huge supporting part in like they bring their children up in partnership with their wives.

Speaker 1: 13:05

There's a document called the didache, or D to K depending on how you pronounce it, and it's a first century document, a Christian document often is called the teachings of the apostles, and in it there's an explicit prohibition on abortion. And I bring that up because, Alex, you had mentioned, you know that it's a Christian issue. Right, it's a human issue. And I think it's important to point out that the church, in its wisdom, right through the, through the providence of the Holy Spirit, as from day one, prohibited, you know, decried as as wrong, the killing of an unborn child. I think the language here I pulled it up just for the sake of this it says thou shalt not murder a child by abortion, nor kill them when born.

Speaker 4: 13:56

It's, you know it's, it's the leadership of Christ, it's the leadership of the Holy Trinity of God. That that, really, what we're talking about here, which I think this document from the, from the early churches is is is pointing towards. You know this is, you know it's, it's, it's a guide and it's not just a prohibition. I think it's actually showing the way of life. This is life. This is good, not because you you can't do things, but because, if you do these things, you're actually cutting off your own life. Not only are you hurting others, but you're actually hurting your own life, because this is the path of darkness that you're following if you're choosing to to abort a child. And so I think we have to look at this and understand this from a positive view that this is actually showing us the narrow way. This is actually showing that life, the abundant life, actually.

Speaker 6: 14:46

So you may not want this child. You were given a gift from God and that gift is the child that's in you, growing, learning, thriving inside of you. Your duties to your patient, you know like. Would you be exempt from that because of your oath?

Speaker 1: 15:03

Yeah, no, I think like would you?

Speaker 6: 15:05

would it being the doctor who performed that abortion? Would you be stuck outside the church?

Speaker 1: 15:09

or because I don't know. No, I think it's a great question, hannah. I think that most Christians that I know would say that performing abortion is a violation of the hypocritical, if actually not not upholding it, because the the hypocritical oath, I believe, includes doing what's best for the health and welfare of the patient, and people always leave out the fact that there's a child involved in this.

Speaker 2: 15:36

Exactly, and that's that's exactly the sort of problem is because is because you know, as, as these issues progress and as the conversation on these, on these issues progress and people become more extreme with them, and really a lot of it has to do with the redefinition of of how we see things. So what does it mean to be to be looking after the welfare of the patient? You know what I mean. So, in the context of the liberal who would critique the pro life position, they would say well, protecting the welfare of the patient would be to do the abortion, whereas we would fundamentally disagree with that. That's why this sort of like, even with, even with the. That's why there has to be a worldview external to something like the hypocritical or oath to inform the the. The hypocritical oath, that's what I mean.

Speaker 6: 16:23

And that's orthodox Christians. As a Christian, we believe that life begins at conceptionhood. Yes, so no matter if it's if you're just a week pregnant, a day pregnant, 28 weeks pregnant, you know just, it doesn't matter, it's still a life.

Speaker 3: 16:41

Very, very sad. What do you guys, what do you guys think when people argue, when they argue, with what if, like, the woman became pregnant out of incest and rape? Because, I mean, my understanding has always been, it's like two wrongs never make a right, one trauma never resolves the other. But I'm very curious, like what, what your thoughts on that are.

Speaker 1: 17:08

And Aesthesia. I'm curious what your thoughts are Right. I want to hear your voice more.

Speaker 4: 17:15

Well, I could start out by just agreeing with you what you're, what you said, aesthesia, about. You know how two wrongs don't make a right, and here you are then punishing capital-y. So I mean, you know, by killing, by ending the life of of the victim, right, the, the, the unborn child.

Speaker 6: 17:37

Especially since those circumstances were extremely unfortunate and out of her control. They can take this opportunity to take control of this life and to raise it the proper way, rather than just destroy this life.

Speaker 1: 17:53

Make the comment that, well, you know you're pro-life but you don't really care, you just want, you know, you want to force that person to have the baby and then you guys don't care.

Speaker 1: 18:01

You know, kind of like the mom's on her own and I think it it really goes back to the heart of which ought to be all of our goals in the faith. Is love Right? We're supposed to be providing for one another, caring for one another, supporting one another, certainly in the community, you know, within the church, so that when someone is going through a situation like this, that they do have resources and that they are given that support and that help, so that it's not just, oh, you, you know you have to have that child and kind of like, you're doubt on your own. Because, as, robert, you're pointing out, these are, these are very weighty issues and I hope that the listeners right now understand. You know we want to try to approach this in a way that is sensitive to this and, you know, not be overly, you know, not judgmental at all, but rather just trying to inform the subject matter, you know, with a position that is, you know, hopefully in line with with the church and what Orthodox Christians believe in practice.

Speaker 3: 19:09

Well and like on, on like a spiritual level, there's just, there's a lot of healing that can be found in like Matushka Olga of Alaska, soon to be canonized as like a very known, well known intercessor for women that have gone through various forms of abuse, and so it's just, it's like I agree with all of you, it's like it's this extremely tragic thing and like my heart breaks for anyone that's gone through that in any way, shape or form. It's not an easy thing, but there's so much healing and like beauty in life to be found within the church and like so many. The thing that, like you wouldn't necessarily find in the secular world is you don't have things like the saints that do intercede for you. There's so many stories of like pain, of trauma, being like lifted from women in in like by various saints.

Speaker 3: 20:16

There's one in particular, matushka Olga. She I don't remember the specifics of the story, but there's this she is a very well known for the story where she massaged the trauma out of a woman and freed her of the pain, and it's just, this is like this is a human life, that and like, despite the travesty of the tragedy of the situation, this is a human being, a human life that could like, come and like, do wonderful things, and it's just like you're not doomed to a life of pain and shame because you went through something traumatic and horrible. It's like God is merciful, panagia is merciful, the saints are there with you and yeah, I don't know, I think that's something that's like. I mean, you can't necessarily talk about it in a secular context because they just have no concept of the saints in intercession, but to anyone that had gone through that it's just like yes, this is like a very heartbreaking thing, but there's so much hope to be found and within orthodoxy and it's going to be okay.

Speaker 4: 21:42

Yeah, hope is so important because, coming back to Brett Cooper, look what a beautiful person, what gifts he has, what she's doing. And in that time of despair, her mom, her father, they wanted to abort her, or he did and look in that time of darkness and somehow, luckily, fortunately, she wasn't aborted, and look what a beautiful life came out of that.

Speaker 1: 22:12

Because, anastasia, I'm so glad you brought it up. You talked about healing, and I think we've talked about a really difficult issue, right, and I'm sure there are people in our audience, men and women, who have, in one way or another, have to deal with or grapple with, the issue of abortion, maybe even have had an abortion or more. There is forgiveness and healing in church. God is merciful. We are all fallen sinners, you know. There's none of us that can say, you know that our slate is clean outside of the grace of God, and so I would just encourage anyone hearing this right now to look to the church, look to Christ, look to the forgiveness that's there, look to the acceptance that's there in a community of other people who are also fallen and people trying to pick up their cross every day and follow Christ, because, ultimately, it's not your past that defines you, but it's your faith today. Right, he who has ears, let him hear. You know, today will you hear his voice, and that's what I would like to leave you guys with.

Speaker 3: 23:29

I want to piggyback off of that. There's just so much hope, that and so much beauty that can come out of these things and it's just like have strength. God is with you, even if you don't know it, even if you don't, even if, like whoever is listening, it's just. Even if you don't comprehend it, it's like there's no barrier in between God and us. He is always with us, he's always merciful. The saints are always looking out for us, even if we're not aware of it. It's whether or not we come to know that.

Speaker 4: 24:07

Just a word of encouragement. God is love, god is life, god is good, god is beautiful and we're made in His image and so we are also here. We were created to create, to bring life, to bring love, to bring the good, to bring the beautiful, to be all those actually, you know, to actually bring that forth in our lives. And so think of that, think. I want to encourage people to think about life and the hope and the goodness and the beauty that's there and how, if you trust God, he will help you through even the darkest moments, because he loves you and he loves your child.

Speaker 6: 24:56

Yeah, there's so much love to go around in the Orthodox Church and the Church is in general. There's so much love, so much acceptance. All you have to do is just start a conversation Hi, good morning, how are you? And there you go, you're in the circle, it's all done. There you go. It's a beautiful thing being a part of the Orthodox Church. It's comforting knowing that, no matter what the situation you're in, no matter what painful thing, that turmoil that's hurting you, you can always reach out to not only members of the congregation but also your spiritual father. Luckily, at St Anthony's we have two on occasion three priests. There's never a shortage of someone to talk with you, to help you, to support you, to help guide you. There's never a shortage. All you have to do is just show up, say hi.

Speaker 2: 25:58

Yeah. So I would say, ultimately, the purpose of Christianity is to take the sinful, wretched person that you are and to elevate you and to unify you with Christ, the highest possible good, the way, the truth and the life himself. Amen, and that's the entire purpose of the Orthodox Church. And so, even if you, you know, commit something that is clearly, as referenced in the canons and the church fathers that we brought up today, clearly as horrible and terrible, like you know, because we can't sugarcoat it, because it is as abortion, you can still be unified to Christ through repentance, through a truly contrite heart, you can unify yourself to Christ and that is the epitome of hope itself. We talk about hope. That is the epitome of hope itself. No matter how wretched and horrible and terrible the things you've done are, you can still, through Christ, be turned into a righteous person.

Speaker 4: 27:24

Thanks be to God.

Speaker 2: 27:25

That's the hope of the gospel, isn't it? That's the light of the gospel.

Speaker 1: 27:28

That's our hope.

Speaker 4: 27:29

Yeah, that's our faith.

Speaker 1: 27:32

Well said, well said, well guys, you know what a topic. Thank you so much for joining us today. It was really. It was a pleasure, it was difficult. This was, I felt myself kind of during this conversation, kind of going a number of places in terms of the you know, it's because, alex, you pointed it out well. Right, there's part of this where it's like it's clear it's hard truths. The church has a definite stance on abortion and yet there's also the economia, right, the fact that we are all sinners and the church has to, you know, not accommodate it's the wrong word, but the church is expressing the grace of God on earth, right? Or?

Speaker 2: 28:20

ox, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1: 28:22

And how those intersect. I think you know is a challenging, challenging thing to discuss, but I really enjoyed this conversation and I hope and pray that our audience is edified by this. Is there anyone that has anything burning that they want to say? Before we close out today, I'd love to give the ladies one last word before we go, all possible.

Speaker 6: 28:47

I'll let you go first.

Speaker 3: 28:50

I don't know, it's just. It's a really interesting topic because it's just, it hits so close to home for me. It's like I want to be. I would you know, god willing, someday I will be a mother and I just, oh man, yeah, my, oh gosh, my heart breaks for, like anyone who's like been in a position where they have like had to seriously consider abortion, and it's just. I would just encourage anyone that's been like been there or is there or is going to be there, to just stay strong and have hope, because it's not lost your. If there are tragic, tragic circumstances involved, you are not like it does not, there's nothing to be ashamed of. And you are not like less of a human being or less lovable because you went through something tragic. And just, yeah, have hope, stay strong.

Speaker 6: 30:00

Like to. The same way, I'm excited about my future and I'm waiting for the day that I have children all around me and they're mine, not you know people from church, they're mine yeah.

Speaker 6: 30:16

I'm very excited for the next chapter of my life and I just really hope that what we're doing in this podcast and what we're doing with the events like we did today with the Walk For Life that just gives someone hope, gives someone, gives them the push they need to continue on, no matter what their family are saying, their friends might be friends, might be saying about it. Just push forward, don't give up. Don't give up.

Speaker 1: 30:53

Got it. My patron saint, you guys, is the prophet Jeremiah, and one of my favorite passages in all of scripture. I will leave all of you with it's God talking to him, telling Jeremiah that he says before I formed you in your mother's womb, I knew you, and I think it is such a beautiful statement, a pro-life statement, showing that God knows us outside of time, and he formed us in our mother's womb. His purpose is glory. Be to God. This is the end of the witnesses. Yes, but goodbye, bye, bye, guys. God bless.